Blade Alignment to help Pronation when skating

[Vet88 674]

12 hours ago, busdriver said:

Or maybe my ankles are just weak. Any good exercises out there to fix the pain at the top of the boot?

The pain at the top of the boot is caused by your foot rolling inwards and the top of the boot pressing on the ankle. The quick fix for this is to heat up the top of the boot and roll this area outwards. Or pad the area with something like closed cell neoprene. However this doesn't fix the underlying issue of pronation. Heat molding does not fix pronation, you still pronate. All it does is help to straighten the ankle (as long as the boot fits well enough) but you are still pronating in the boot and over time, the constant pressure of the foot on the inside of the boot will eventually cause the boot to break down and open up. External shimming (between the boot and the holder, on the outside of the foot for pronation) isn't very well known in hockey circles yet is one of the first things you are evaluated for with any half decent figure coach and fitter. If you are struggling to find someone who can help you with shimming go ask someone in figure skating circles for a decent boot fitter.

Arch support (and orthotics) will also not fix your pronation, the arch support has nothing to lever against to provide the support for the foot. If you want it to help shape your foot then it will work but to help address pronation, no. Internal heel wedges (when used inside the boot they are placed on the inside of the heel for pronation) may help, it all depends on how much and how you pronate. Cheap to buy and you can experiment yourself, it's worth having a go. Shimming on the outside of the holder or moving the holder inwards or a mix of both are still the primary way to address pronation in skates.

There are a number of exercises to help pronation, they are all about strengthening the arch, ankle and calf. Here are 3:- One of them is to curl the toes inwards (imagine you are trying to touch the bottom of your heel with the bottom of your toes) as hard as you can and hold for 5 seconds then relax. Try to do 30 sets 3 times a day and as you get better, just keep doing as many as you can a day. Another is to find a ledge, put the inside of the foot on the ledge (first 2 toes and the ball of the foot, the outside of the foot hangs off the ledge) and then do calf raises whilst keeping the foot as level as you can. 30 sets 3 times a day. Another is to get a resistance band, sit on the floor and put it around a solid object and then around the top of your foot. Curl your foot towards you (without moving your leg, just your foot, imagine you want to try and get the top of your toes to touch your shin), hold for 5 seconds and then relax, repeat, 30 sets 3 times a day.

I can also give you a guaranteed fix for pronation in skates but it depends on how much you can skate / train and how dedicated you are to it. Start by dropping eyelets, say 2, then train until you get comfortable skating like this. Then drop another eyelet, repeat. You are aiming for 5 eyelets down, at this point you completely lose the support of the boot for the ankle. Now don't tie your laces at all. Learn to use your muscles to control your balance over the skate blade, stop relying on the boot to provide support. This will correct your pronation, guaranteed. Lace up for games, train unlaced. Ice or inline, it works for both.

If you don't have the time or inclination to do this and you don't want to shim (I personally do not like shimming) for whatever reason then buy the stiffest boots you can afford, tie them as tight as you can and go and skate. When the boots start to break down and open up then replace them. Depending on how hard you pronate and how often you skate will determine how long you get out of a pair of skates.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Vet88

[BenBreeg 493]

Endorsing skating with skates unlaced.  Even for non-pronators I think this can reap huge benefits.  It did help with my pronating foot but gave me so much feedback on my overall skating posture, etc that even the limited amount I am able to do is helpful.  You can do drills but I guarantee one slow lap around the rink will reveal a host of feedback. 

[Larry54 243]

20 hours ago, busdriver said:

I also get pain under the ball of my foot where it just feels like I grind my ball into the hard baseplate of the skate. Maybe more arch support would help. (My shoes always wear out first under the ball of my foot but my resting stance is with my toes pointed out to the sides so I tend to roll off of the ball rather than the end of my toes.) 

One thing that might help is metatarsal arch support. I use Specialized Body Geometry insoles in my skates because they have a metatarsal button to support the area just behind the ball of the foot, so it relieves pressure on the ball and re-distributes pressure more evenly on the sole overall. And they're available in 3 different longitudinal arch heights. They are a bit thick though, slightly thicker than Superfeet so the skate has to have enough volume to handle them. Or you can try metatarsal pads but it might be tricky finding the perfect position for them.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Larry54

[Larry54 243]

😠 Damn double post. Either my computer or this website is lagging this morning.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Larry54
Double post

[krisdrum 233]

12 hours ago, Larry54 said:

One thing that might help is metatarsal arch support. I use Specialized Body Geometry insoles in my skates because they have a metatarsal button to support the area just behind the ball of the foot, so it relieves pressure on the ball and re-distributes pressure more evenly on the sole overall. And they're available in 3 different longitudinal arch heights. They are a bit thick though, slightly thicker than Superfeet so the skate has to have enough volume to handle them. Or you can try metatarsal pads but it might be tricky finding the perfect position for them.

Nice, a bit of bike tech in the hockey world.

Might also look into the G8 Performance adjustable insoles.  They are the best "non-custom" insoles in cycling right now.  Pretty thin footbed, 5 arch height pieces that are adjustable fore/aft and laterally on each insole.  They also have heel wedges as add-ons that fit into the heel plate of the insole and are about to release metatarsal buttons as an add-on as well.  I have them in my cycling shoes and so far they are great.  Want to try them in skates. 

 

Obviously I pronate as well.  I've tried wedges inside the boot (on a pair of Vapors) and external shims (on my current pair of Grafs).  In a stiff boot, the wedges worked for me.  In the softer Grafs, I might try them again in addition to the external shims, which have definitely helped.  Before I had the shims installed my skate guy said I had deformed/twisted the boots of my Grafs due to the pronation. 

My issue is I don't skate enough, so the muscles forget/aren't strong enough and any gains I make when I skate more are lost when I can't skate as much.  It is really frustrating.  One of the reasons I am thinking of going back to a Vapor or similar.  I feel like they were much more "point and shoot" due to the stiffness than the Grafs are.   

Edited June 16, 2020 by krisdrum

[Larry54 243]

11 hours ago, krisdrum said:

Nice, a bit of bike tech in the hockey world.

Might also look into the G8 Performance adjustable insoles.  They are the best "non-custom" insoles in cycling right now.  Pretty thin footbed, 5 arch height pieces that are adjustable fore/aft and laterally on each insole.  They also have heel wedges as add-ons that fit into the heel plate of the insole and are about to release metatarsal buttons as an add-on as well.  I have them in my cycling shoes and so far they are great.  Want to try them in skates. 

 

Obviously I pronate as well.  I've tried wedges inside the boot (on a pair of Vapors) and external shims (on my current pair of Grafs).  In a stiff boot, the wedges worked for me.  In the softer Grafs, I might try them again in addition to the external shims, which have definitely helped.  Before I had the shims installed my skate guy said I had deformed/twisted the boots of my Grafs due to the pronation. 

My issue is I don't skate enough, so the muscles forget/aren't strong enough and any gains I make when I skate more are lost when I can't skate as much.  It is really frustrating.  One of the reasons I am thinking of going back to a Vapor or similar.  I feel like they were much more "point and shoot" due to the stiffness than the Grafs are.   

VH Footwear (True) used to make custom cycling shoes, too.

[krisdrum 233]

Dragging this thread back up... related question... best shim material?  I picked up a new to me pair of Graf G75 lite.  I put one heel shim inside each boot, skated yesterday and not enough.  Can try to add more, but don't want to mess with how the boot fits that much if I can avoid it.  My other Grafs have external shims, thin layers of leather.  Is leather the preferred material?  Or would plastic or metal be better?  The G75 don't have rivets, use T-nuts, so was thinking I could do the shims myself. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

14 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

Dragging this thread back up... related question... best shim material?  I picked up a new to me pair of Graf G75 lite.  I put one heel shim inside each boot, skated yesterday and not enough.  Can try to add more, but don't want to mess with how the boot fits that much if I can avoid it.  My other Grafs have external shims, thin layers of leather.  Is leather the preferred material?  Or would plastic or metal be better?  The G75 don't have rivets, use T-nuts, so was thinking I could do the shims myself. 

You will want to use Low Density Polyethylene for shims. It can be bought at most any plastics store or even on Amazon. Cut to fit. Drill holes. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by SkateWorksPNW

[krisdrum 233]

8 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

You will want to use Low Density Polyethylene for shims. It can be bought at most any plastics store or even on Amazon. Cut to fit. Drill holes. 

perfect, thanks.  Any particular thickness you find best?  Assume I may need to experiment by layering. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

9 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

perfect, thanks.  Any particular thickness you find best?  Assume I may need to experiment by layering. 

The thickness is going to be specific to your needs. I would NOT layer sheets. 

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

1 minute ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

I would NOT layer sheets. 

Why not?  Curious to hear your explanation.

[krisdrum 233]

4 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Why not?  Curious to hear your explanation.

Right... am I supposed to buy LDPE in every thickness I could need?  I would think having a thinner sheet I could layer 1,2,3 on top of each other to provide say 1.5mm increments would be better.

[VegasHockey 1280]

15 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Why not?  Curious to hear your explanation.

 

7 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

Right... am I supposed to buy LDPE in every thickness I could need?  I would think having a thinner sheet I could layer 1,2,3 on top of each other to provide say 1.5mm increments would be better.

I have found in the past when I have layered multiple sheets it allowed more flex and shifting of the shims as compared to a single piece which provides more structrual integrity. If you go with multiple layers you will likely have to bond them together once you find the height you specificaly want and your screws/rivets will also come lose over time due to the stacked materials. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by SkateWorksPNW
typo

[krisdrum 233]

11 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

 

I have found in the past when I have layered multiple sheets it allowed more flex and shifting of the shims as compared to a single piece which provides more structrual integrity. If you go with multiple layers you will likely have to bond them together once you find the height you specificaly want and your screws/rivets will also come lose over time due to the stacked materials. 

Ok, thanks, makes sense. 

[Giltis 116]

I guess what you could do is to dial in what you want using the multiple layers with an old pair of skates that have the same pitch, but then replace it with one single one afterwards on your good skates (but that's a lot of riveting). 

[krisdrum 233]

I went with thinner LDPE that I can layer.  Basically 1.5mm (1/16 in.).  I looked at my other skates that have shims and I think they are about 3-4mm thick.  Once I dial these in (easy with the T nuts), I can pop them out and glue together.  Probably also be good to get some longer Torx head bolts once I get them dialed, so disassembly is inevitable once I am satisfied with the results.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

1 hour ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

 

I have found in the past when I have layered multiple sheets it allowed more flex and shifting of the shims as compared to a single piece which provides more structrual integrity. If you go with multiple layers you will likely have to bond them together once you find the height you specificaly want and your screws/rivets will also come lose over time due to the stacked materials. 

Thanks for your response.  Can't say I've experienced the same thing with any shims I've created as they're shaped and drilled while stacked to maintain uniformity.

I carry 1/16' and 1/8" LDPE sheets.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

10 hours ago, krisdrum said:

perfect, thanks.  Any particular thickness you find best?  Assume I may need to experiment by layering. 

Gatorade bottle. Works awesome 

[Buzz_LightBeer 969]

57 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Gatorade bottle. Works awesome 

Same, but plastic report binder covers 🤣

[colins 246]

 

Here's an observation - some of the best skaters I've seen from a power / explosiveness / speed POV have been the ones with very good ankle mobility and the ability to pronate when pushing off the loaded foot.

Some mild supination when using outside edges also seems to be advantageous.

So to OP - if you have an ankle issue you want to correct, by all means - but I don't view pronation as an automatic "bad thing" when it comes to skating. We make fun of the "ankle benders" first starting off, but the guys who have above average ankle mobility for pronation and supination along with ankle strength seem to be the ones that are the best skaters, generally speaking.

 

[Vet88 674]

Ankle flexion is critical if you want to get maximum power and edge bite, "controlled" ankle flexion of around 15 - 20 degrees from neutral is the optimal range. It's not pronation (or supination) as per se that is the issue, it's over pronation as your ankle collapses inwards under load that is the issue. I put it like this, if it wasn't for the boot holding you up you would fall to the ice.

And if your ankle bending when doing a 2 foot glide in a straight line, you have alignment issues, regardless of how long you have been skating.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

11 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Gatorade bottle. Works awesome 

I see you upgraded from milk jugs.  LOL

Disclaimer: Jeff taught me how to shim in 2002.  Never forget where you came from.

[krisdrum 233]

6 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Ankle flexion is critical if you want to get maximum power and edge bite, "controlled" ankle flexion of around 15 - 20 degrees from neutral is the optimal range. It's not pronation (or supination) as per se that is the issue, it's over pronation as your ankle collapses inwards under load that is the issue. I put it like this, if it wasn't for the boot holding you up you would fall to the ice.

And if your ankle bending when doing a 2 foot glide in a straight line, you have alignment issues, regardless of how long you have been skating.

This is what I am talking about.  My feet naturally pronate.  So my default stance has me on my inside edge, not neutral over the blade.  What I lack is the "control" over that rotation, as @Vet88 mentions.  What I am trying to get to is a neutral stance over the blade as a default, so I can then tell my body, inside or outside edge or flat, instead of having it "decided" for me and having to overcompensate to change that orientation.   .  

Gatorade bottle, milk jug, plastic binder cover... wish I had waited before handing Jeff Bezos my money for a sheet of LDPE...

Edited August 11, 2020 by krisdrum

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

1 hour ago, krisdrum said:

This is what I am talking about.  My feet naturally pronate.  So my default stance has me on my inside edge, not neutral over the blade.  What I lack is the "control" over that rotation, as @Vet88 mentions.  What I am trying to get to is a neutral stance over the blade as a default, so I can then tell my body, inside or outside edge or flat, instead of having it "decided" for me and having to overcompensate to change that orientation.   .  

Gatorade bottle, milk jug, plastic binder cover... wish I had waited before handing Jeff Bezos my money for a sheet of LDPE...

Have you aligned the blades first or leaving then as mounted?

[krisdrum 233]

42 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Have you aligned the blades first or leaving then as mounted?

Aligned as in re-drill holes in the boot to move the holder?  I'd rather not try drilling my boot and I'm not sure there is a shop anywhere near me I'd trust to do the work properly.  My other pair of skates have the heel post shimmed and it has helped.  Plan was to do the same with this new pair.