Initial Thoughts Bauer TotalONE NXG Initial Thoughts

[DarkStar50 679]

If you were looking for forward flex, why didn't you buy a Vapor APX2?

[donkers 31]

the tongue inserts are stupid i hate them but when i take them out i feel naked

[YesLanges 127]

DS, not sure why you seem so offended, annoyed, and defensive in a civil discussion about a skate among people with questions, answers, and constructive suggestions for one another on the topic. FYI, I did buy a pair of APX-2s, together with the NXGs because I wanted to try them on side by side. I had zero pre-determined expectations about either one and a totally open mind about them both. I returned the APX-2s immediately because they were way too narrow for me. I put on the NXGs the way they came with the Mid insert installed and noticed that they seemed to restrict forward flex a lot. So I simply removed the inserts to see how they felt with no inserts and they felt much better and allowed more forward flex without any significant increase in lace bite. I've stated that without the inserts, I have no complaints about forward flex or lace bite.

Again, not sure what your problem is with any of that or exactly why this whole conversation seems to bother you enough to keep chiming in with the unnecessary sarcasm. Granted, I'm new here and you're a senior member with thousands of posts, but how about just allowing others to have a polite and mutually respectful conversation they all seem interested in having without sniping in with the snide comments? You work for Bauer or something, Bro'?

[And before you suggest that it was "inconsiderate" to the online seller to order both, I indicated in advance that I'd probably be returning one or the other and he had no problem with it. He provided floor-model APX-2s and I had no problem with that, either, and it was not a factor in my initial decision to return them.]

Thanks for you interest.

Donkers: I don't necessarily think they're "stupid"; just that their only apparent value to me is lace-bite protection, and in my opinion, limited forward flex is way too much of a price to pay to reduce lace bite. I'd probably rather go with a different skate if that's my choice.

[DarkStar50 679]

I am not offended or annoyed by any of your comments. I am just trying to understand your posts. Your last reply is the first time you mentioned buying Vapor APX2 skates, I wasn't being sarcastic in asking. I was trying to find something out about your decision to buy NXG. I cannot wear Vapor also as they are too narrow for my foot. I have worn ONE90, ONE95, TotalONE, and TotalONE NXG. I have been through the skate as each improvement and upgrade has been added. I do not work for Bauer. I do have a working relationship with the developers and designers at Bauer in the Supreme skate line. Through this, I have an understanding of the basis of their technologies as Bauer brings them to market. I have been working in the hockey industry selling skates and equipment for over 35 years. I sold a lot of Micron skates back in the 80s and understand your loyalty to your Lange skates. I have enjoyed reading your comments as I recognize the player coming back into the market for new skates when the technologies and differences in skates are so completely different. The process of educating yourself in this market isn't easy. The true test of the technology of today's skates is in on ice performance. I'll be interested to hear your feedback after skating in them. I still advise getting them baked first. It will improve the fit when done correctly.

[AIREAYE 248]

I read no indication of annoyance or offense from Darkstar's posts, might be just you looking for it.

[YesLanges 127]

No problem, DS...appreciate that post much more than your first in response to me; and no, Air, not looking for conflict at all. I totally understand the difference between reviewing a skate after skating in it and just discussing whatever you can check on land. Already decided to bake based on input to date. To tell you the truth, when my blade guy told me how much more supportive new skates were, I was skeptical because I didn't even realize that Bauer now uses a hard composite shell. NO complaints whatsoever on that issue and I was surprised to read Biggzy's report about missing support...that's why I suggested it was probably a lacing issue. I wouldn't even say that I'm "loyal" to Langes; as I said earlier, my S/N is just a joke about anticipating the comments from anybody who sees someone in Langes today. The NXGs are also way more comfortable than any traditional (i.e. old) leather Supremes (Tacks, etc), but still nothing like the Lange/Micro/Bauer composite inserts, as you know. I'm looking forward to trying out both these new (to me) old Langes and these NXGs, hopefully, this week. Appreciate your input and, as you say, just trying to collect information and opinions here. Let me ask you: any problem anticipated removing the inserts altogether if lace bite isn't an issue for me? (Thanks in advance.)

[DarkStar50 679]

I think you should skate with the mid insert in first. You are going to have a lot more pressure on your foot once you skate with all your gear on with the added weight of your gear. Without that insert, that tongue will feel like paper. The skate is designed for the insert to be there for maximum performance. The technology behind the insert is real. There is a tremedous amount of energy transfer through the Curv composite boot. The insert helps to enhance the energy in a positive way. I have never skated without the insert. There is a forward flex effect provided by the insert. You are going to have to find out for yourself.

[YesLanges 127]

The only gear I plan on wearing is a ski hat (public skate), but thank you. Probably going to try both ways. Sending you a PM with an ebay auction link you'll find interesting with your background. Don't want to blow the bidding up for buyers by posting publicly.

[KoT 2]

DarkStar50

If you were looking for forward flex, why didn't you buy a Vapor APX2?

That mistake, APX2 have small forward flex, Nexus - traditional (normal forward flex), Supreme - Maximum forward flex, u can check it on bauer site in GEAR SELECT.

[DarkStar50 679]

Thanks. I still think of forward flex in Vapor as provided by deeper angle of eyelets and more spread across the laces on the tongue.

[KoT 2]

Vapor have same angle as Supreme, but Supreme have negative pitch than have more angle of flex.

No problem

[moreoutdoor 6]

I think you should skate with the mid insert in first. You are going to have a lot more pressure on your foot once you skate with all your gear on with the added weight of your gear. Without that insert, that tongue will feel like paper. The skate is designed for the insert to be there for maximum performance. The technology behind the insert is real. There is a tremedous amount of energy transfer through the Curv composite boot. The insert helps to enhance the energy in a positive way. I have never skated without the insert. There is a forward flex effect provided by the insert. You are going to have to find out for yourself.

DarkStar50

That mistake, APX2 have small forward flex, Nexus - traditional (normal forward flex), Supreme - Maximum forward flex, u can check it on bauer site in GEAR SELECT.

Thanks. I still think of forward flex in Vapor as provided by deeper angle of eyelets and more spread across the laces on the tongue.

Vapor have same angle as Supreme, but Supreme have negative pitch than have more angle of flex.

No problem

all very interesting - I've not, in any of my online reads, nor from any shop guy I've spoken to, come across these points about forward flex characteristics.

(not sure if this 'topic' should continue in this review, or be another 'thread', but it's really interesting and important - if it all works).

and brings up connection with the thread about FLEX 55 product...

I don;t think ANY of the Manus address this very important issue directly or to any degree of significance - at least not in telling the skate buying audience what they do and how it 'affects' their performance. It really is important, and leaving it up to skate lacing is really sortta stone-age.

I'd luv to try a pair of these - however, unless I find a C, I think width will prove my undoing with them.

Personally, my short time on APX (not 2) found them too stiff fore/aft and when I loosened the laces I got lacebite... these might be different.

do Manus ever do "Skate Demo Days" ... in So Cal ???

[DarkStar50 679]

Vapor have same angle as Supreme, but Supreme have negative pitch than have more angle of flex.

No problem

Not the angle of the eyelets. Vapor boot has a deeper angle of eyelet providing for more spread across the laces. The Supreme boot has the traditional gradual slope of angle of eyelets allowing for more of the boot to come over the top of your foot when laced. Look in the Bauer catalogue at the first 5 eyelets from the ankle down of Vapor and Supreme and the angles are different. Hold up each boot in a shop and see the difference in the angle of the eyelets. That is what I am comparing between the two boots.

[YesLanges 127]

Still just skating on carpet here, so bear with me, but I was wrong about the potential upside of inserts that restrict forward flexion. As JR mentioned in his original review, the inserts definitely do enhance overall ankle wrap, which is very counterintuitive. Also, while I'm not crazy about anything that limits forward flexion, I noticed that once you do re-install the inserts, the x-stiff really aren't much worse in that regard than the Mids. There's a huge difference in ankle range of motion between (any) inserts and no inserts, but if I go with inserts and accept the possible ankle-range limitation, I'd probably go x-stiff to get the most overall support for (roughly) the same price in flexion limitation.

[EDIT to Update]

So, I finally had the chance to skate for the first time in almost 20 years. Had both the old (but new to me) Langes/Iceteks (TUUK-style) and the new NXG/LS2s profiled and sharpened identically: 9-ft radius, 1/2" hollow, 50mm of blade contact, 30mm of that pitched forward of blade center. Tried the Langes first, then went back and forth between them, trying each 3 times alternating back to back. Compared taping to taping and no taping to no taping. Let me also acknowledge that I skated and played in only 1 pair of Langes from the time I was 14 to 31, although not this particular pair that I found recently online.

For the first 10 seconds or so, it felt really weird to step onto ice and feel unbalanced, and I had a Mark Wells flashback from 60 Minutes two weeks ago. That went away by the time I was halfway around the rink once. Still felt very uncomfortable, but can't know how much was cobwebs and how much was blades I'd never skated on before. Within a couple of minutes, it felt like I was skating at maybe 40%, pretty much the same way I felt on in-lines the first time I'd ever tried them, 7 years after I stopped playing and 2 years since a single public skate when my old Langes finally disintegrated.

Switched to the NXGs and felt more like 25% to 30% and it didn't improve. They also felt tilted backwards with the same blade profile and the guy was nice enough to change them to 35mm in front of center instead of 30mm. Slight improvement, but still felt like I was skating in something shaped like an "L" with a maximum of 90-degrees flexion. (I realize that's just in my mind's eye because you couldn't skate at all with that little flexion...just felt that way.) If I had to describe it another way, they felt like the blades were skis to me, even after the adjustment...like the whole length was on the ice at all times instead of only 50mm. Before having them profiled, I'd stepped onto linoleum just to feel where the contact surface was: it felt very far back and there was also a bump a couple of inches before the back-ends of both blades that was gone after profiling

The second time on NXGs, I took out the tongue inserts (X-Stiff) and went to none, because I really wanted to experience the maximum difference. I fully expected them to have too little support based on my earlier carpet tests but to be at least as flexible as the Langes. Very surprised that going from X-Stiffs to nothing seemed to have no noticeable effect on lateral support/stability...they still felt just as secure that way...and I always considered myself to need maximum stiffness because I've never skated in leather (except the first 6 months I ever skated). However, I was equally surprised that they still felt too restrictive in terms of forward ankle flex. No improvement skating...stayed at about 30% in every trial and change in variable. I was also really shocked that the tremendous difference in weight (the NGXs feel like no more than half the weight of the Langes in my hand) was totally imperceptible to me; but I understand the fair test for that is the third period of a game and not a public skate. Straightaway speed was the same and my stride felt like my stride (sort of).

This is not intended as any kind of skate "review" or as a criticism of the NXGs at all...just updating for anybody who was interested in this in the first place. Also, as stated, it's perfectly plausible that this comparison is only applicable to someone who always/only skated in Langes before rather than as a more general comparison for someone else. Based on this test, I'm getting 2 more sets of Iceteks with different profiles to swap onto the holders on the Langes and try out next time -- they're the "old style" with the 2 screws that are still "new" compared the last TUUKS I skated on in 91 -- and I'll be selling the NXGs as soon as Wifey can take some good pics of them for me on her I-Phone. (I'm the same with phones as skates: still using her old Razor that's new to me and that only replaced my Motorola candy-bar-shaped phone that I had since 2001 two years ago.)

[YesLanges 127]

Appreciate any assistance with answers to the following questions:

Is there a specific number of posts required for M++ (selling) eligibility?

Is there also a minimum requirement to be able to use basic forum functions like copy/paste, picture uploading, and quoting other people's posts? (None of those functions seems to work for me on this forum.)

Thank you.

[All Flash 49]

Have you tried not tying up the top one or two eyelets YesLanges to get the forward flex you are looking for?

IMHO you would be making a huge mistake to not dial in the NXG's just for the protection and weight. The NXG's are a far superior skate to the Langes in every conceivable way.

[YesLanges 127]

AF, I understand that may be true by every conceivable objective measure of a skate...just not for me, maybe...and maybe just because I never skated in anything else. Skipping an eyelet isn't an option for me because it would sacrifice lateral stability...in fact, if I had to choose, I'd sacrifice forward flex for lateral stability if I had to pick one or the other...never the other way around.

[All Flash 49]

I would say because of how stiff the skates already are you wouldn't have to worry about lateral stabiliy. I have a few buddies I play with that do this to their TO's and they say the lateral stability loss is not noticeable. Like I said , you should try everything to dial them in before giving them up. But that's just me. Some ppl fear change :p

I know I do. Just not with nice new shiny hockey gear.

[moreoutdoor 6]

Have you tried not tying up the top one or two eyelets YesLanges to get the forward flex you are looking for?

IMHO you would be making a huge mistake to not dial in the NXG's just for the protection and weight. The NXG's are a far superior skate to the Langes in every conceivable way.

Ok, so I'll prolly solidify the 'Old Kook' label with this comment. But (insert any new skate) is not far superior to Langes in every conceivable way. Langes were a very superior skate which skated incredibly for many. There were also issues, as with most skates - they didn;t fit quite a few feet. But those lucky enough to get a good fit, got great performance, great steel and controllable forward flex on a very stiff lateral boot - controlled forward flex not something available in any of the new skates.

But that said, I would also council YesLanges to keep working on the NXGs - if they offer a good fit.

Reality is that the Langes, if they're the PU boot (80's & 90's), will become brittle, if they aren;t already. I wouldn't be spending a bunch of bucks on holders or runners.

One not hard hit will make those old boots explode! I have the visual evidence to back up that prediction. And it's not just from 'impact'. The PU boot has a definite life span, and sadly, all those old Langes are beyond that point.

If you're not needing the dough, you now have time to dial in the NXGs, while the Langes are still useable. And I predict that there are no 2 piece boots in the immediate skate pipeline. One skate session at what you say is 40% is hardly a good test, unless you plan on skating at 40% from here on out.

I think there's a bunch of things that can be done with lacing styles and even using lace locks to get a bit more boot flex without giving up progressive forward pressure or incurring lacebite.

If you're now back on skates in a regular way, is it acceptable to have significant 'down time' when the Langes do go south? Is having a replacement in the wings a worthwhile thing? If you get a whole year of weekly skating out of the Langes, I would be hugely surprised...

[YesLanges 127]

Can anybody explain to me why I can't quote or post pictures or cut/past anything? All I can do on this forum is type directly into the reply box.

A.F.: I don't "fear" change...I just resist it kicking and screaming. The only thing I'm going with that's new are shin pads because I never really liked my old ones anyway. You're talking to someone whose cell phone was a Motorola t-192 (Google an image) until 2 or 3 years ago when I activated my wife's Razor that's she'd already retired a few phones ago. Pretty much going with what's in my avatar there minus the jersey...that reminds me...gotta dig out and cut down some brand new 1986 custom Christian sticks...to remind you who was in office the last time I ordered them,, they're all stamped with "Just say no to drugs!!" direct from the factory =)

M.O,D.: The Comps I picked up are actually in near-new condition...I'm thinking it has a lot to do with the conditions they were stored in. These actually have the same feel (and squeak) as my old ones. Since then, I also took delivery or a pair of Laser 3s and they weren't brittle at all...they were soft like rubber...and no squeak...they went right into the trash. Found another pair of Comps and curious to see what they look like or what the PU condition is. I understand what both you guys are saying and I'm not arguing...but when I skated in these for the first time last week, I felt 40% but it still felt like 40% of me skating...the NXGs felt like somebody else skating...at 25-30% of me. If I could use the quote function, I'd quote what you said about the combination of forward flex and lateral support...I just don't think it can be matched without sacrificing one or the other, even today.

[BenderHockey 127]

I don't understand why these threads always seem to drag on. This guy says he hates new skates, and doesn't want them. Ok, nothing to see here. No matter what anyone says, its responded to like a petulant child, only more eloquently. He wants what he wants. Let him have it.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Appreciate any assistance with answers to the following questions:

Is there a specific number of posts required for M++ (selling) eligibility?

Is there also a minimum requirement to be able to use basic forum functions like copy/paste, picture uploading, and quoting other people's posts? (None of those functions seems to work for me on this forum.)

Thank you.

Um...you just press quote on the person's post you want to quote.

[althoma1 574]

He may be using IE 11. I have that issue in IE 11 (can't quote and can't cut and past links ect.) so when I want to quote or copy something I use Google Chrome.

[zebra_steve 11]

I don't understand why these threads always seem to drag on. This guy says he hates new skates, and doesn't want them. Ok, nothing to see here. No matter what anyone says, its responded to like a petulant child, only more eloquently. He wants what he wants. Let him have it.

Bender,

I've said it many times before...... IF you didn't grow up learning to skate in the old school skates then you have no clue what us dinosaurs are talking about. The difference in feel, and forward flex from the old skates compared to the new "plastic fantastic" skate du jour is like going from a high top basketball shoe to a ski boot. He has a specific FEEL that he's looking for and just maybe the NXG is not the boot for him. Truthfully, chances are really good that it is WAY too much boot and his skating style is probably a far cry from the short extension railroad tracking style that the modern skates almost force upon you. He would definitely benefit from playing with the lacing schemes and blade\pitch profiles before giving up on them...

Yeslanges - you cannot just match blade profiles as the boots will have as much, if not more, of an effect on your forward lean, your balance, and your weight distribution. Also, no matter what newer boot you try there is going to be an adjustment period of more than just a couple public skates..... especially if you are jumping from one skate to another with major differences in feel and set up. Heck, if you just replace a worn out runner with a new one you will feel a difference even if you had it profiled the same as your one was when new. You might seriously consider something a few steps down from the top of the line to actually gain a little more of the flexibility that you seek. Having worn the Langes a whole slew of the various top end boots from the 1970's until now I will tell you that from about 2/3 of the way up the model chart and higher will likely have equivalent to better lateral stiffness than your of Langes.

[YesLanges 127]

Yeah, I can't quote or do anything but type. Anytime I hit the quote button or try to upload a picture, nothing happens, my forum screen freezes, and I have to refresh just to continue typing out the post. Can't even copy/paste anything in the post I'm writing to move it around.

Bender: You may want to look up the word petulant there before using it in a sentence. This is just a very calm discussion among people interested in participating in it in the first place and I think I've expressed nothing but appreciation for constructive input regardless of whether the opinions expressed happen to match mine. I've repeatedly acknowledged the quality of the new skates, repeatedly qualified my comments as possibly applying to nobody else who hasn't only skated in Langes for 15+ years, and repeatedly said that I'm not presuming to be "reviewing" the NXGs. If I were closed-minded about it, I wouldn't have bothered with the NXGs in the first place, knowing I'll be taking a substantial loss reselling them. This isn't even an argument as far as I'm concerned, just a discussion.

Zebra: I understand what you're saying. Truthfully, if I'd noticed the weight difference on my legs (or extra spring), I'd be slower to make the decision. What you're saying about stride applies perfectly: I have a very long, low hip, crouched, full-leg extension stride that just doesn't match the NXGs, even with no inserts. In the Langes, my stride is still a rusty version of my stride. I guess I'm more interested in getting back to maybe 75% or 80% ASAP to play in an old-timers' league more than worrying about >80% in the longer term. That said, let me ask you something as non "petulantly" as I possibly can: Are you saying the other Bauers are equally stiff laterally and more flexible at the same time? Because the NXGs actually felt right to me for lateral support. I'd be open to something with the same lateral support but not less. Any specific suggestions?