Is So-And-So A Hall Of Famer? The Water Cooler Thread

[flip12 715]

A guy I'm curious about is Fedorov. At his best, he was a top five player in the league, winning a Hart, a Selke, 3 cups, but his post-Detroit career was largely forgettable. He's just short of 500 goals, 1,100 points, and has 176 playoff points.

I'd say Fedorov will get in. He'd have over 500 goals if not for lockouts during his career.

How about Mogilny?

[Stewie 721]

Datsyuk gets in. not only does he have hardware and stats, and known for his two way play, but also hes very widely liked by fellow players, fans everywhere, and writers. MY wondering is, does zetterberg sit on the inside looking out, or the other way around.

[Jason Harris 31]

Zetterberg has 263 goals and 409 assists in 714 games at age 32, with a decent plus 146. However, he only has had two seasons when he exceeded 1.1 PPG, so it's not too likely that he's going to go zooming up the historical charts. I don't think he's close to looking in.

[psh 25]

Zetterberg has 263 goals and 409 assists in 714 games at age 32, with a decent plus 146. However, he only has had two seasons when he exceeded 1.1 PPG, so it's not too likely that he's going to go zooming up the historical charts. I don't think he's close to looking in.

Both players are remarkably similar from a numbers perspective. The difference is that Datsyuk has the extraordinary hands and Zetterberg has more of the physical game and, what I think might be important to the HOF voters, the team captaincy.

Datsyuk is at .98 points per regular season game and Zetterberg is .94 per game. I was surprised to see that Zetterberg actually has more goals in fewer games than Datsyuk. The numbers diverge a fair big in the playoffs. Datsyuk has .74 points per game and Zetterberg has .93 points per game. Zetterberg also has 19 more playoff goals than Datsyuk in 17 fewer games. Given that, I'd say they both have a good shot if they continue to stay healthy, but that Zetterberg is the better candidate by a relatively substantial margin.

[17D1998 1]

What about Paul Kariya? Based on his ''potential'' he could eventually get a spot in a few years in a weaker class

[chippa13 1844]

Tough call. He was a point a game player and was just under the 1,000 point mark on his career. A lack of hardware won't help his cause but with Neely's induction it opens the argument for some of these other injury effected careers.

[BenderHockey 127]

I would like to see Kariya make it, but wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. When he was good, he was GOOD. He basically carried some decent to bad Ducks squads on his back for a few years, and his performance in the Cup Finals vs. NJ wasn't something to shake a stick at.

[IPv6Freely 2094]

Next year's first-year eligible players include Dominik Hasek, Peter Forsberg and Mike Modano.

Modano is a lock IMO, but not so sure about the other two.

[flip12 715]

If Forsberg's body hadn't failed him. He's one of the "short career, but otherwise definitely in" guys. Still holds WJC record for assists (24) and points (31) in a tournament (and second place for most points ties his assists, 24). 2 Stanley Cups, 2 Olympic Golds, Rookie of the Year, Art Ross, Hart Trophy, 7X All-Star, very high points to game ratio, playing in the lower scoring half of the 90's and into the dead puck*. Indisputably one of the best all-round players in his day if not ever.

*Though I think "dead puck" is misleading. In my opinion it has more to do with the NHL housing loads of players that would not make teams once Europeans really came over. That plus a few other things--lighter goalie pads, better goalie coaching, better coaching overall, etc.

[chippa13 1844]

Forsberg is a lock. Plenty of hardware on his mantle and for a time he was the best player in the league.

[psh 25]

Forsberg is a lock. Plenty of hardware on his mantle and for a time he was the best player in the league.

Agreed. Wasn't he the first non-Russian in the double triple gold club? And he was the driving force behind many of those wins. If he's not a first balloter, he won't be waiting long.

On a related note, I caught part of the HOF ceremony last night. If you missed it, it's worth seeking out Shero's speech and especially Shanahan's. Everyone was good, but those guys outdid themselves. Hockey people do it right. It's nice to be reminded of that and to see that, even when they are supposed to be the center of attention, they deflect the spotlight and can't help but share it and spread the thanks.

[Chadd 916]

Next year's first-year eligible players include Dominik Hasek, Peter Forsberg and Mike Modano.

Modano is a lock IMO, but not so sure about the other two.

I would be surprised if any of those guys didn't make it, especially Hasek. Honestly, it's hard to make a case against any of them.

Hasek:

2 Hart

2 Pearson

6 Vezina

2 Cups

6 time All Star

389 NHL wins

[pizzakid13 5]

i'm shocked anybody would think hasek is a "maybe." the guy was probably the most dominant goalie for a long stretch of years. his rivals in brodeur/roy are locks as well. plus, his buffalo team was nowhere near a good as NJ or Col.

2 MVPs alone is huge since they very rarely give it to a goalie. in his case, there was no other more valuable player to their team period.

[Stewie 721]

I would be surprised if any of those guys didn't make it, especially Hasek. Honestly, it's hard to make a case against any of them.

Hasek:

2 Hart

2 Pearson

6 Vezina

2 Cups

6 time All Star

389 NHL wins

and a gold medal =)

[Jason Harris 31]

Back to Hossa:

At 35, he just scored his 1000th point in 1100 games, yet his top years are 92 and 100 points -- though, really, how many 100 point seasons are we seeing nowadays? -- and he has a 211 +/- with only a season each of -14 and -1.

I've never thought of him as a dominant player, but I have to admit he's built a decent resume. He's 80th in scoring, with an outside chance of cracking the top 60, and most of those players are in the Hall.

I think I'd vote "No," but we might be surprised.

[chippa13 1844]

That's a tough one, he's also got the lack of any personal hardware hurting his case. He had a good stretch where he was a dominant player but just on a bad team so it depends on how voters feel about big fish in little ponds.

[adam14 182]

I'd say no on Hossa as well. He's a great player, but never was that "hall of fame" next level type of player.

[Chadd 916]

Back to Hossa:

At 35, he just scored his 1000th point in 1100 games, yet his top years are 92 and 100 points -- though, really, how many 100 point seasons are we seeing nowadays? -- and he has a 211 +/- with only a season each of -14 and -1.

I've never thought of him as a dominant player, but I have to admit he's built a decent resume. He's 80th in scoring, with an outside chance of cracking the top 60, and most of those players are in the Hall.

I think I'd vote "No," but we might be surprised.

I love having him on the Hawks but he has never been the centerpiece on a great team. Those are the guys that should be in the HHoF. If he gets into the top 60s in scoring, I wouldn't be surprised to see him get in.

[dsjunior1388 81]

Back to Hossa:

At 35, he just scored his 1000th point in 1100 games, yet his top years are 92 and 100 points -- though, really, how many 100 point seasons are we seeing nowadays? -- and he has a 211 +/- with only a season each of -14 and -1.

I've never thought of him as a dominant player, but I have to admit he's built a decent resume. He's 80th in scoring, with an outside chance of cracking the top 60, and most of those players are in the Hall.

I think I'd vote "No," but we might be surprised.

Hossa isn't decorated, but he is likable and dependable and has two rings. The most important thing is that he's 35 and has 7 years left on his contract. It hinges on how much of that he plays. If it's 5 years and 250 points I think he makes it. Less than 200 points the rest of the way, and unless he pulls a Conn Smythe (probably the only award he has a real chance at) I think he misses out.

What do you guys think of Chris Pronger's chances? One Norris, but also a Hart, the only defenseman to do so in 30+ years. 698 points in 1167 games, +183. Won a cup, but took 3 teams to a cup final in his first season there.

[IPv6Freely 2094]

Hossa isn't decorated, but he is likable and dependable and has two rings. The most important thing is that he's 35 and has 7 years left on his contract. It hinges on how much of that he plays. If it's 5 years and 250 points I think he makes it. Less than 200 points the rest of the way, and unless he pulls a Conn Smythe (probably the only award he has a real chance at) I think he misses out.

What do you guys think of Chris Pronger's chances? One Norris, but also a Hart, the only defenseman to do so in 30+ years. 698 points in 1167 games, +183. Won a cup, but took 3 teams to a cup final in his first season there.

I think the history of dirty hits taints Pronger, unfortunately.

[BenderHockey 127]

Dirty Hits won't keep you out of the Hall. See Stevens, Scott.

[Hills 713]

Hossa should be in. He isn't just all offence and is considered one of the better 2-way players. I've heard hockey media people talk about how he never even gets nominated for Selke because he is a winger and unfortunately the Selke stats seem to follow that.

"Of the 35 Selke Trophy winners since the award was first given out in 1978, only eight have been wingers. Since Montreal left winger Bob Gainey won the first four Selke Trophies, only four have been wingers -- the last being Jere Lehtinen of Dallas in 2003."

And that Trophy was basically created for Gainey. Problem with wingers is they don't get a pretty stat like faceoff % to pad to their resume for the trophy.

NHL for awards doesn't really cater to defensive play. The Norris is about offensive defenceman and their should be a shut down defenceman award as well. When Subban won he wasn't the best defensive player in the league and wasn't the most dependable in his own end either, but blocked shots and defensive plays don't create pretty stats or high reel moments (minus Gregory Campbell of course).

[chippa13 1844]

Centers have a lot more defensive responsibility so it makes sense that they have dominated the Selke award.

Hossa will have to put up a lot more points to make his case but I guess if Mike Gartner can make it in then Hossa has an outside chance.

[Hills 713]

It doesn't make sense when someone plays amazing defensively to not be recognized because "his position doesn't have that responsibility." If that were the case it'd just mean he goes above and beyond what he expected to.

Gainey has half the points Hossa does right now in more games and he is in because of his defensive abilities so Hossa should get the same treatment.

Google "Hossa Selke and there are a tonne of articles of people saying over and over that he deserves the nominations but the award committee and general public are too blind by the flashiness of goals and stats.

[chippa13 1844]

Centers get the focus because they are the ones playing the 200 foot game, sure wingers are part of the mix but it is the centers who have the responsibility and are there down low with the defensemen. Hence, they get more of the attention for it when they have great shut down numbers and are still able to help the team offensively. Wingers can hustle back and add support but it is really the centers that do the lion's share of the work.

As for your argument that the committee and public are blinded by the flashiness of goals and stats, doesn't Hossa have goals and stats?

Gainey was the prototype for defensive forwards and deserved his recognition. He was the Bobby Orr of defensive forwards. Gainey has 5 Cups as a player and a Conn Smythe to go along with his Selke trophies. If you're trying to make your case for Hossa then you're better off looking at the likes of Bobby Carpenter or Adam Oates then Bob Gainey.