Does the drastic level of overpricing bother you?

[MaximRecoil 7]

Mass producing hockey skates is a cheap thing to do. For example - Bauer Vapor X1.0 Sr. Ice Hockey Skates for $44.98. Even though that is a "clearance price", it is pretty safe to assume that they are not selling them for less than they paid for them (selling at a loss isn't generally a good business strategy, though there are a few exceptions). Note that that price is less than you'd normally pay retail for the Tuuk Lightspeed Pro holders and blades alone (blades and holders are also drastically overpriced in general). Those are $27.99 each, so $55.98 for a pair.

As far as labor goes, it doesn't cost significantly less to make those ~$45 skates than it does to make their $850 (!!!) skates. I worked in two different shoe factories over a period of about 6 years. The processes for all the various models of shoes and boots were similar. The more traditional shoes like penny loafers were more labor intensive because they were "hand-sewn" (which only applies to the vamp), the midsole was Littleway stitched to the upper, the leather outsole was Goodyear stitched to the midsole, and the leather heel and outsole were hand-shaped by scouring and edge-trimming. This resulted in more labor than shoes which used preformed rubber cupsoles that were merely cemented to the upper. In any event, our most expensive shoes were about $120, and our cheapest were about $75. All of our shoes had high-quality full-grain leather uppers.

All modern hockey skates are made in pretty much the same way to each other. Basically, the individual pieces of the upper are cut to shape, stitched together on a sewing machine, reinforcements and padding are added to the ankle area, the lining is stitched in place on a sewing machine, the upper is attached to and formed around a last, the sole is cemented to the upper, and the holder/blade is riveted to the sole. This is all done on an assembly line by relatively low-paid workers, and as you can see from those ~$45 skates, it is not very expensive in terms of labor.

So those ~$850 skates must be made of materials that cost ~19 times more than the materials in the ~$45 skates, right? Uh huh. That's laughable to the extreme. They don't even use leather anymore, and man-made materials are cheap; regardless of how shiny, "high-tech", or "carbon fibery" they look. I'd bet everything I own that there isn't a company on Earth that makes a mass-produced hockey skate that costs them significantly more than $50 a pair to manufacture.

I blame Nike and Reebok, the longtime Kings of Kool-Aid™. The prices started getting outrageous when they got their paws into things in the mid 1990s. For example, Nike acquired Bauer in 1994. In 1995 the Bauer Supreme Comps (5000) came out with an outrageous $400 MSRP pricetag, though they generally sold for $300 (still outrageous, but yes, I bought some and I still have them). Prior to that, top of the line skates such as CCM 652 Tacks sold for about $220. At least they were still made with actual leather back then though.

Fortunately for me, I don't want any of these newer Buck Rogers-looking "all manmade materials" skates that cost as much as a major household appliance. I wouldn't wear them if they were given to me for free.

For anyone who thinks these "high tech" skates have improved performance, take a look at figure skaters. Their skates look and are made about the same as they have been for many decades, and they do maneuvers that hockey players couldn't do if their lives depended on it. Or, look at the fastest skater competitions ("NHL All-Star Game SuperSkills Competition"). For example:

1993 — Mike Gartner 13.510 seconds

1996 — Mike Gartner 13.386 seconds

Those times both beat all times up to and including 2007 too (2007 — Andy McDonald 14.03 seconds), which is the last year that the results are directly comparable due to the event being revised in 2008. Gartner generally wore early 1990s CCM 652 Tacks, which are traditional real leather and mesh skates, and as I mentioned earlier, cost about $220, or $365 in 2013 adjusted for inflation, according to the online Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator (I know the retail price because I bought a pair in 1992, albeit for $110 at a 50% off "going out of business sale"; I waited in line for hours).

[Beflar 55]

I think we as men have the ability to tell how much something is worth to ones-self. I agree with you, skates will never be worth $850 in my mind.

We did this to ourselves thou. I guess I was part of the problem back in the day when I just bought the "top of the line" and didn't care what the price was. After playing for a long time I now know that the most important thing in hockey is not the gear but coaching and training.

Now I stay away from the bleeding edge of hockey gear. Hopefully this will have some effect on future pricing.

[MaximRecoil 7]

I'll add an anecdote:

In the late '80s and early '90s, when I was a teenager, if you went to a department store such as Kmart to buy skates, there were 2 options: 1 brand of "hockey skates", in men's and boy's sizes, and 1 brand of "figure skates", black in men's and boy's sizes, and white in women's and girl's sizes. The brand of hockey skates was "American Cougar", which were cheap, made-in-Taiwan, fake-leather and mesh skates. They sold for about $45 or $50. Even though they were low quality, they were a huge step up from the former department store choice from the '70s to mid-80's, sold under various brand names such as Sherbrooke, Canadian Flyer, and most infamously, American Wildcats (and here are the '80s version with plastic blade holders, but otherwise the same). The Wildcats had zero padding in the ankles or anywhere else, and they had zero ankle support. With one hand you could easily squeeze the ankle area and flatten it together as if it were cloth. You could shake the skate and the ankle area would flop back and forth. On top of that, the toe box had sharp edges inside that gouged into your feet. They should have been illegal.

In any event, the American Cougar skates were much better, in that they had some ankle padding and adequate ankle support. They were comparable to bottom-of-the-line CCM and Bauers at the time, such as CCM Rapide and Bauer Chargers. They were probably all made in the same factory in Taiwan.

Back in the early 1990s when I was 17 or 18, a guy showed up at my local outdoor rink on a night that we were playing an informal game of hockey. In fact, informal hockey is the only kind I've ever played, as I never had the opportunity to play organized hockey (our school never had a hockey team), and as such, I'm a much better skater than I am a hockey player. The same thing applied to all of us at the rink, which wasn't even a hockey rink (quite a bit smaller).

So this guy, who was 30 (looked like he was 16 though), named Doug, was untouchable when he got the puck. I could outskate him if we were just playing Gorham (not by a big margin though, he was an excellent skater), but compared to the rest of us, he might as well have been a pro with a hockey stick. As it turned out he'd played organized hockey for most of his life.

The first few times he showed up at the rink he was wearing Micron Mega 10-90s, some of the best skates ever made (I had CCM 652 CF Tacks at the time). Then he showed up wearing American Cougars, which was bizarre. I asked him what happened to his Microns, and he said that nothing had happened to them; he said he just wanted to keep them nice, i.e., mostly save them for when he plays organized hockey on the big indoor rinks. After that he'd sometimes wear his Microns to our crappy little rink, but most of the time he was sporting the Cougars.

The point to this overly long story is that his skates didn't make a bit of difference. He was an amazing hockey player wearing his Microns, and an equally amazing hockey player wearing his Kmart Cougars.

[Stryker 37]

Though I do agree that skates are "technically" overpriced (from a pure materials/labor standpoint) , the fact that people are still completely willing to shell out 850$ per year for their kid's skates shows that they really aren't overpriced.

Supply and demand, if people are willing to pay for it, why not give it to them.

[mickz 107]

The "clearance priced" skates that you see are discontinued models that are blown out to retailers by the manufacturer. Hockey equipment has fairly low margins compared some of the other types of retail (ex clothing). Unless you're talking about the cheap convenience items like tape, laces, etc, it's difficult to even double your money.

You are also only associating the direct material and labor costs involved with manufacturing a skate. There are many indirect costs that manufacturers face when it comes to the cost of producing a good and retailers to ship, receive, stock and sell you the end product.

[ulf 5]

you're right..at a certain price point, certain $$$ skates aren't worth that much more to the next couple $$ levels

you see it in reduced pricing and sales..a lot of the time he mid/low price skate cannot be reduced as much as the higher ones.

i love the marketing. it's brilliant for skates and sticks..some of the buzz words and verbiage they come up with to describe them is amazing.and you can hear people repeating it when they review an item.

[MaximRecoil 7]

Though I do agree that skates are "technically" overpriced (from a pure materials/labor standpoint) , the fact that people are still completely willing to shell out 850$ per year for their kid's skates shows that they really aren't overpriced.

Supply and demand, if people are willing to pay for it, why not give it to them.

Yes, but that is something different altogether, i.e., subjective value. This often comes up in the classic car hobby. A common response to the question of "What's that car worth?" is "Whatever someone is willing to pay for it". This concept of subjective value is embodied in the old saying, "One man's trash is another man's treasure".

But when I say "overpriced", I mean from an objective standpoint, which is based on the actual cost involved, from the factory to the retailer. I think that most people would agree that a ~2,000% markup goes well beyond a reasonable profit margin, and well into "overpriced" territory.

[MaximRecoil 7]

The "clearance priced" skates that you see are discontinued models that are blown out to retailers by the manufacturer. Hockey equipment has fairly low margins compared some of the other types of retail (ex clothing).

As I said, they are likely not selling those $45 skates for less than they paid for them. But even the regular price is low ($70).

You are also only associating the direct material and labor costs involved with manufacturing a skate. There are many indirect costs that manufacturers face when it comes to the cost of producing a good and retailers to ship, receive, stock and sell you the end product.

All of those costs were considered automatically simply by using the $45 skates as an example, since those are being sold at that price by a retailer. We can go by the $70 regular retail price if you want, and you are still a far cry from $850 or $900. Labor costs cancel out, because they aren't significantly different among the various models of skates. All the rest of the costs associated with shipping, retailers, etc., also cancel out, because those are not different among the various models of skates either. So that only leaves cost of materials (and some R&D in the case of newly introduced models) to explain the huge price difference between bottom of the line and top of the line. That won't get you anywhere near $900.

There used to be a relatively small price difference between bottom of the line and top of the line, i.e., in the late '80s, bottom of the line for Bauer or CCM was about $60 and top of the line was about $180. This is what you'd expect with a line consisting of products that aren't fundamentally different from each other; the differences in materials and methods of construction both being relatively minor.

[DarkStar50 680]

For the record, figure skates may look the same as they have for decades but in no way are they made the same as they have been for decades. The rink pro shop I work at has 11 figure skaters at Sochi. Their boots are nothing like what Peggy Fleming or Dick Button skated in decades ago. Leather is not to be found in high end figure boots uppers, only on the sole.

If you want to see what a lack of R D & D can do to a skate, take a look at CCM over the last 15 years. Externo, Edge, and on were junk even before they hit the market. When any CCM skate from those years comes into the shop for sharpening now I laugh at how little was done to research the design that CCM brought to market. They threw together whatever and in the process created junk and killed their market share and skate credibility.

I get that you have a rant against skate pricing but there is a lot more to your simple equation of materials = X and how that relates to final retail price. What about R D & D that is months of engineering with success/failure of each material used in a boot before final approval? Where does the money come from to pay the people who work in this part of the skate production process? What about buying the time in that factory to make the skates? What about training the production workers building the skates? What about the PLMs going overseas to manage QC and more? What about shipping the product from the Asian factory to the North American distribution center before shipping to the retailer? What about all the people in between that have to handle that product before it is on the wall at your LHS? They have to be paid for their labor so they are an expense to the product too right? What about the projected and final sell through of those $850 skates against the other price point skates? Sure they make $850 skates but how many pairs of those are sold against the rest of the skate line? If skates were still made as they were in the 80s and 90s they would still break down as fast as they did back then too. These improvements that have been added to today's skates have improved their life as well.

Just curious, what skates are you wearing now?

[Stewie 721]

I think Darkstar is spot on. Consideration of only the labor that goes into one line and then projecting that into the rest of the line is not a very good analytical method. In todays skates, the materials vary significantly, as does the science which goes into them. Just look at the quality and performance of the lower end lines compared to the high end, if you say the material cost and labor costs are the same in those, then why do the higher end skates perform that much better than the lower end? If you want a lower priced top end skate, then companies will just push out the same skates year in and year out. If the margin is that high, so high that the markup makes it insanely profitable, how come there arent more companies jumpin in the biz?

[z1ggy 81]

I think the prices are a bit crazy. I think 6-7 years ago I got Vapor XXV;s which were 1 step down from the Vapor XXXs. I believe I paid around $350 and probably on sale, too. Now the next step down after top of the line will still cost you around $600 or so. I think that's crazy.

Luckily for me, I only play 1-2 times a week, so a pair of skates can last me 10 years easily.

[andymac1324 1]

supply and demand. If people weren't buying Bauer's $800 skates, Bauer wouldn't sell them for $800 or wouldn't waste the money making them. Anytime you're mad at a company for their prices, the first person to blame is the consumer. Nobody is forcing these people to buy new skates. Bauer is a business. A business' sole purpose is to A) make money and B) continue to make money. I have no problem with the prices because WE are the ones who set the prices.

Now, if you want to discuss our economy and how prices have increased without wages increasing at the same rate, that's a different story :)

[z1ggy 81]

supply and demand. If people weren't buying Bauer's $800 skates, Bauer wouldn't sell them for $800 or wouldn't waste the money making them. Anytime you're mad at a company for their prices, the first person to blame is the consumer. Nobody is forcing these people to buy new skates. Bauer is a business. A business' sole purpose is to A) make money and B) continue to make money. I have no problem with the prices because WE are the ones who set the prices.

Now, if you want to discuss our economy and how prices have increased without wages increasing at the same rate, that's a different story :)

It's not totally as simply as supply and demand. The reason people keep paying higher prices is because hockey skates are generally an inelastic good.. at least among competitive players. If you think that having the top of the line skate is going to take your game to a higher level you will pay a higher price for it, regardless if there is a similar substitue for less money.

If the skates were an elastic good, people would opt to buy a different brand/style. But since they really can't (assuming they think they need top of the line) they keep paying the high prices.

[andymac1324 1]

It's not totally as simply as supply and demand. The reason people keep paying higher prices is because hockey skates are generally an inelastic good.. at least among competitive players. If you think that having the top of the line skate is going to take your game to a higher level you will pay a higher price for it, regardless if there is a similar substitue for less money.

If the skates were an elastic good, people would opt to buy a different brand/style. But since they really can't (assuming they think they need top of the line) they keep paying the high prices.

I wouldn't describe hockey skates as an inelastic good. Food, heating oil, clothing, those are inelastic. People make the choice to buy top end gear, and if the demand continues to stay the same or even grow (hockey manufacturers would do well to send TJ Oshie a thank you note) the price will continue to hold.

[CommodoreColt 19]

The upper end prices product can rise all they want. But we have a probelm when that drags the lower bound prices of bottom and mid-tier products up.

$800 dollar skates and $250 composite twigs can and should exist. But not to the complete exclusion of affordable equipment on the lower ends.

Some people already consider the culture of elite minor hockey and travel programs to be a completely crass cash grab for silver spoon parents and kids. I wonder to what extent the marketing of expensive equipment is enabled by the high cost tolerance of the relatively few wealthier hockey parents.

[boo10 323]

I don't know about manufacturing costs, but I do know a few people that work retail who get skates for cost + 10%. Those guys tell me that they can get that $900 Bauer skate for significantly less than 50% of retail. Anecdotal I know, but take from that what you will.

[z1ggy 81]

I wouldn't describe hockey skates as an inelastic good. Food, heating oil, clothing, those are inelastic. People make the choice to buy top end gear, and if the demand continues to stay the same or even grow (hockey manufacturers would do well to send TJ Oshie a thank you note) the price will continue to hold.

It's inelastic to the people that fill that market place. If you're a guy ( or girl ) who competes at a high level and demand a "high performance" skate, you will continue to keep paying the premium. You can't just go buy CCMs or Reebok's if you're a Bauer guy. Your foot is a certain shape and fits a certain profile skate. You can't jump from APX 2's to X90s because that's not going to fit your 'extreme performance needs.'

You are right though, it is the consumer's fault. I doubt most people would notice the dif between the X90s/100s and the APX skates unless they are pro. But because Nike Bauer profits keep rising from selling more expensive skates... Just means the skates are inelastic. If they were elastic goods, the prices would not rise.

[ridindirty 11]

While I do think the margins are higher than some from the LHS side of the business imply here, I don't see how you can compare boots to hockey skates.

As someone that owns a lot of Goodyear welted sole shoes and boots, I've schooled myself on the manufacturing process of out of pure curiosity. You are comparing an industry where the manufacturing process hasn't changed in 100 years to one that now produces carbon composite skates. In fact, when discussing shoes, a premium is paid for the hand made, older manufacturing processes. It's quite the opposite situation.

[AIREAYE 248]

I don't know about manufacturing costs, but I do know a few people that work retail who get skates for cost + 10%. Those guys tell me that they can get that $900 Bauer skate for significantly less than 50% of retail. Anecdotal I know, but take from that what you will.

Well, manufacturers would sometimes offer employee-only specials on new gear. That's likely what you've heard and should not factor into discussion on costing. Cost+ 10% is nowhere near 50% of regular retail pricing. Remember that this is cost to the retailer + 10%, not COGS to the manufacturer, who sell it to retailers.

[ulf 5]

The upper end prices product can rise all they want. But we have a probelm when that drags the lower bound prices of bottom and mid-tier products up.

i don't think it brings the mid and bottom price up..i think it doesn't allow them to go down because they're already lower priced.

$800 dollar skates and $250 composite twigs can and should exist. But not to the complete exclusion of affordable equipment on the lower ends.

Some people already consider the culture of elite minor hockey and travel programs to be a completely crass cash grab for silver spoon parents and kids. I wonder to what extent the marketing of expensive equipment is enabled by the high cost tolerance of the relatively few wealthier hockey parents.

i see this happening. many hockey rinks/organizations are really gauging you. then they cry, we want to bring hockey to people..but in certain places it seems like they're only after the buck.

skate sharpening is 15 in nyc..and in CT i can get it done for 5 and 10 dollars....and i think the less expensive place does he best job.

travel leagues for youth run $2300-3500...for 2 different teams/rinks competing in the same league...the one more $$$ is the one is closer to NYC and each one is 1/2 hr from me

[wrangler 157]

I think it's obvious that demand for skates, by level, is elastic with regard to price. As the price goes up, fewer are sold. A lot of folks have a budget, and will end up with a lesser product at the same price.

When it comes to the top-level skates, demand can be much less elastic with regard to price. NHL teams, for example, will pay the price, when the cost goes up.

[MaximRecoil 7]

For the record, figure skates may look the same as they have for decades but in no way are they made the same as they have been for decades. The rink pro shop I work at has 11 figure skaters at Sochi. Their boots are nothing like what Peggy Fleming or Dick Button skated in decades ago. Leather is not to be found in high end figure boots uppers, only on the sole.

Riedell 875 TS has leather uppers, as does the 435 TS. The 375 Gold Star Classic has a leather lining, as does the HLS 1500. There may be more but I didn't go through every high end model from every figure skating company, and figure skating companies don't tend to give a technical breakdown of every component, so there is usually only a brief overview to go by.

If you want to see what a lack of R D & D can do to a skate, take a look at CCM over the last 15 years. Externo, Edge, and on were junk even before they hit the market. When any CCM skate from those years comes into the shop for sharpening now I laugh at how little was done to research the design that CCM brought to market. They threw together whatever and in the process created junk and killed their market share and skate credibility.

This isn't an issue if you use tried and true materials and designs. Do you really think a player couldn't be competitive today wearing e.g. CCM 652 Vacu Tacks or Micron Mega 10-90s?

I get that you have a rant against skate pricing but there is a lot more to your simple equation of materials = X and how that relates to final retail price. What about R D & D that is months of engineering with success/failure of each material used in a boot before final approval? Where does the money come from to pay the people who work in this part of the skate production process? What about buying the time in that factory to make the skates? What about training the production workers building the skates? What about the PLMs going overseas to manage QC and more? What about shipping the product from the Asian factory to the North American distribution center before shipping to the retailer? What about all the people in between that have to handle that product before it is on the wall at your LHS? They have to be paid for their labor so they are an expense to the product too right? What about the projected and final sell through of those $850 skates against the other price point skates? Sure they make $850 skates but how many pairs of those are sold against the rest of the skate line? If skates were still made as they were in the 80s and 90s they would still break down as fast as they did back then too. These improvements that have been added to today's skates have improved their life as well.

I addressed this in an earlier post ("All of those costs were considered automatically simply by using the $45 skates as an example ..."). Also, high end skates in the '80s and '90s didn't break down fast.

Just curious, what skates are you wearing now?

Bauer Supreme Composite which I bought new in the winter of '95/'96, the first year they came out. They are the ones that had the little raised section of sole by the heel that said "COMP" on them and they didn't have the number "5000" written on them anywhere, like so.

I think Darkstar is spot on. Consideration of only the labor that goes into one line and then projecting that into the rest of the line is not a very good analytical method.

And what aspect of labor do you think differs significantly from model to model? I've already explained the basics of how they are built; you can look at them and see how they were put together, especially if you've worked in a shoe/boot factory and are familiar with the fundamental processes.

In todays skates, the materials vary significantly, as does the science which goes into them.

That science is done by companies which create the materials in the first place, companies like 3M, Dupont, etc. And while different models may use different materials, it doesn't explain such a drastic difference in retail price.

Just look at the quality and performance of the lower end lines compared to the high end, if you say the material cost and labor costs are the same in those, then why do the higher end skates perform that much better than the lower end?

That's not what I said. Labor costs will be roughly the same from model to model. The materials cost may differ when different materials are used, but not by nearly enough to account for one model costing $900 and another model costing $70. Skate companies have done this for a long time, but in the past they weren't nearly so brazen. For example, in the early 1990s CCM had 251 "Sport Tacks" for $120 and 451 "Super Tacks" for $180. Those two models of skates were exactly the same except for the degree of stiffness (supposedly anyway; I've skated in both models and I've never noticed any difference in stiffness). They used the exact same materials, exact same design, everything. They even both used the same SLM SL-5000 "Dynasteel" holders/blades and the same "Dura-Tan Genuine Leather" lining. You could wear a 251 on one foot and a 451 on the other foot, and you'd never know the difference. Here's a picture of some I have.

Also, do you have evidence of performance differences? Once a skate meets certain minimum criteria, it gets to the point where performance differences, if any exist, become hard to measure/prove.

If you want a lower priced top end skate, then companies will just push out the same skates year in and year out. If the margin is that high, so high that the markup makes it insanely profitable, how come there arent more companies jumpin in the biz?

Two behemoths, Nike and Reebok, already did recognize the insane profit potential about 20 years ago when they jumped into the business, which, not coincidentally, is when prices started going through the roof. Also, there is more to "jumpin in the biz" than just recognizing the potential for profit; you need a lot of money to do it, and it also helps to be able to latch onto established names like Nike and Reebok did with Bauer and CCM.

While I do think the margins are higher than some from the LHS side of the business imply here, I don't see how you can compare boots to hockey skates.

As someone that owns a lot of Goodyear welted sole shoes and boots, I've schooled myself on the manufacturing process of out of pure curiosity. You are comparing an industry where the manufacturing process hasn't changed in 100 years to one that now produces carbon composite skates. In fact, when discussing shoes, a premium is paid for the hand made, older manufacturing processes. It's quite the opposite situation.

Yes, "a premium is paid for the hand made, older manufacturing processes", so how does that translate to skates, which do not use the "hand made, older manufacturing processes", costing $900? Making skate boots is less labor-intensive than making Goodyear welt shoes and boots; that extra labor centers on the attachment of the sole (skate soles are preformed and simply cemented onto the upper; it is a one-step process in a hydraulic press.

By the way, not all soles that are Goodyear stitched use welt construction. For example, with penny loafers, the outsole is Goodyear stitched directly to the midsole, there is no welt. For welt construction, first the upper, which is still attached to the last, is trimmed of its excess overhanging leather around the bottom of the last, manually on a machine that can easily take a finger off. The welt is then stitched to the bottom overhang of the upper on a welting machine. The midsole is then stitched to the welt on the Goodyear machine (the loudest machine in the factory, by the way), and then the outsole is cemented to the midsole in a hydraulic press. The heel is then scoured on a specialized belt sander and the sole edges are trimmed with high speed rotary cutters (the edge trimmer is another machine which can easily take a finger off, and/or send the shoe flying across the room). These are both manual finishing/contouring processes done by eye to make everything flush and make the contour of the sole and heel match the contour of the upper.

In the case of more traditional shoes with leather soles and no welt, such as penny loafers, further finishing operations are done to the raw edges of the leather heels and soles. After coming off the edge trimmer, they go to the edge setter (that was one of my main jobs for a couple of years), where the edge is wetted with a horsehair brush dipped in water, and then guided along a rapidly vibrating, spring-loaded hot "iron" (a block of steel with a groove to fit over the edge of the sole) which smooths the fibrous edge of the leather sole. This is a tricky job to learn; you always have to have the shoe at the right angle relative to the vibrating iron as you guide it around the perimeter of the sole, keeping upward pressure on it against the stiff spring, or the iron will leave a series of chatter marks embedded deep in the sole's edge. You also have to be fast.

Then the sole is stained with a waxy liquid filler coat using a horsehair brush, and edge set again, which further smooths the sole edge. It is then given its final coat of stain and sent off to inspection. There may or may not be a "stitch separating" operation before being edge set, depending on the model of shoe.

As I said, none of this applies to hockey skate boots; you have a preformed sole; cement it on; done. No midsole, no welt, no stitching, no trimming, scouring, finishing, or staining operations; nothing. With traditional boots/shoes, you have an entire room/line dedicated to the attachment and finishing of the sole, usually known as the "making room".

As for the upper, if it is a stitched upper like most skates have, then the process is fundamentally the same for the stitched upper of shoes and boots, regardless of the materials used (i.e., using different materials doesn't change the fact that you still need to cut out each shape, sew them together, and form them over a last).

[chippa13 1844]

Anyone else feel like they're watching the bar scene in Good Will Hunting and this isn't the Matt Damon character?

[Souldriver 64]

Yeah high end skates cost a hole bunch now but no one asked you to buy them. Also comparing things to 70s and 80s prices are a bit bunk bc back in the 70s $180 was worth a ton more and that's just economics not hockey. There is also more than materials and labor going into it.

Look at it this way, just 10 years ago the top of the line video card for computers was about $180. Now the top of the line can cost you a full grand. You get an immense card for that but most people won't or can't take advantage of that. And for much less you can get the next closest card which in the end is still overkill for most and may only but out about 10 fps less. the computer market has a word for people who like the best and that's "enthusiast." Most people won't need or get the enthusiast card but people buy it still and the r&d for that product trickles down.

[Stewie 721]

nike and reebok are both great examples.... as in both of those companies are or will be out of the skate business, and hockey business entirely. if the markup is indeed as much as you believe it is, this wouldnt be the case, they would have kept pumpin them out. If its so profitable with multiple times over profit margins, how come Warrior, with new balance backing, hasnt entered the skate market yet? Ive tried skating in lower end 79 dollar model skates, its not fun, i notice a huge difference in performance in the 350 range which i usually stick to, otherwise as an intelligent consumer id just go with the cheapest skates i could, instead of the cheapest skates that do what i need them too. If i had the money to splurge on a higher end skate, i would. I also have noticed a difference at events where I try on higher end skates, I just dont need the 850 model for beer leagues, but I can see where someone might think they would.

and yes, those companies do create the material, but there are costs associated with creating those materials which are passed onto the company which purchase them, and you still need RD staff to work out what materials work best with your product and what ratios. Higher end skates were made in Canada for a while, which would have higher labor costs involved, however this may not be the case anymore.

and besides, if the difference in performance is so negligable, why are you angered by the overpricing in the first place? just get the lower end models and use those.