Custom APX2 skate Dilemma boot depth options

[ericcg82 2]

Hi, after recently reading 18 pages on custom skates in an old thread here I figure I had to register and post my own question. I am in the middle of a custom skate order and Bauer recently wrote/called back to the store (Pro hockey life in Vaughan) and said they can't add the depth to the skate with the injected lacing system. So after speaking with my fitter and discussing options he seems to think that you don't want to get rid of the lacing bar so his recommendation is to use a supreme MX3 boot and tighten up the heel and open up the front so that it fits like a vapor but adds the needed depth. DAA for the supreme he recommend.

Now my dilemma is I have been wearing bauer vapor 10's for about 16 years (non custom) and they feel fantastic, although I have been told that the older vapor like mine had more depth in the boot and you can visually see that when I try them on vs the APX2. So I am a little hesitant to switch to the supreme boot as when I heated them both up in store and tried them on the Vapor feels great, no heel lift but obviously you can notice that the tongue is pushing out of the skate too much. When I try on the supreme it is quite evident that it is tighter on the inside of my feet near the toes of the skate and I can feel the heel lift.

So is the new lacing system that much of a difference? will the supreme really feel like the Vapor when custom? I just have a hard time picturing that since in store it just didn't feel right. Not sure if I should stick with APX2 and standard eyelets or go with MX3 and keep the lacing bar? Is it just personal preference? Any opinions from people who have encountered a similar problem and what they did to it would be appreciated. I have attached my initial order form for the APX2 if there are any pros/fitters in here who would like to comment. Thank you.

[mc88 160]

It seems a bit crazy to spend a ton of money on a pair of fully custom skates that you want but can't get. The Supremes fit way different than a Vapor and they have a different pitch as well. Supreme has a normal ankle, a narrow toe box and has a more neutral pitch, while the Vapor has a narrower ankle, a wider toebox and has a more aggressive and leaned forward pitch (however, I'm sure you can add shims or profile the runner on the Supreme to fix the pitch difference). But you can't really fix the fit without heavy modification. The Supreme boot is why I have a tailors bunion on my right foot. The toebox is way too narrow for my feet!

As for the lacing system, I'm not a particular fan of it. It offers more forward flex, but I found that it doesn't wrap around the foot as well, especially around the top ankle. It creates more of a clamp than a wrap (didn't allow me to tighten the ankle as much as I'd like because the sides of the ankle felt crushed). I found that the standard eyelet system works best for my fit preference.

From experience, I can say that the Supreme toebox won't accommodate the bone spurs unless they severely punch it out or create an overall wider boot. Also note that the stiffness of the boot has changed drastically in the past 15 years. Your Vapors are more than likely MUCH softer and more pliable than today's stiff carbon fiber boots. So don't expect the same fit/feel.

Also, I almost forgot to mention, the Supreme NXG/MX3 tongue SUCKS! Absolutely sucks. Worst tongue out there. I'd recommend going with the APX2, APX, one95 or Vapor x60 tongue!

What I'd recommend:

- Try a wider width MX3 (like EE instead of D) and see if that would make a difference in the toebox area--if the toebox works, then you can just request a narrower heel, like EE/A or EE/AA or EE/AAA

- Try the Nexus line as it has a wider toebox and deeper boot (although, wider ankle as well, which will need to be addressed)

- Consider some CCM skates, they usually create a deeper boot, however I'm not sure as to the ankle/toebox fit.

- Consider some custom VH Footwear skates. When I went custom, I went with VH Footwear because of the way Scott Van Horne creates a skate that fits like a sock. It molds around your foot, so if you're like me and have some bunions, or "Frankenstein" feet as I call them, he'll be able to create a carbon fiber boot that WRAPS around the bone spurs. The bright-side is that since these are fully custom to your foot, the ankle/toebox/boot depth won't be an issue (Scott has you take multiple measurements around the foot for depth, plus you can also note it and he'll accommodate it). However, these skates tend to have a tight fit, so if you like a looser fit, then these won't be for you. More info can be found here: http://modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/63437-vh-footwear/

Here's a picture of some MX3's I just sold. As you can see from the picture, the top of the ankle didn't wrap like it does near the toebox. Instead, it creates a C-like clamp on the top of the ankle:

[ericcg82 2]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll start of by saying money is not really an issue, I am not rich but well enough off I don't care how much I spend on skates as long as they fit and work as planned. I play 3 times a week year round so I just want to make sure that whatever I get is going to fit and not cause problems. The reason for the new skates was my original steel is wearing down to the triangles on the 10's and missing a few rivets and 2 eyelets need repair so I thought maybe time to buy new skates, now I am almost wondering if I should just fix up the 10's. If I was changing to an MX3 boot that was going to be the ONLY change, was keeping APX2 tongue as I didn't like the MX3 tongue, APX2 outsole etc..So I think I might be leaning towards keeping the APX2 and just going with standard eyelets, heck I have them on my 10's and don't mind them so if that is the trade off for a comfy skate maybe its the way to go. I'm going to check that link you posted though, thanks.

[mc88 160]

Versus... these... where the top of the ankle of my VH Footwear skates wraps around and conforms to the foot (something I prefer):

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll start of by saying money is not really an issue, I am not rich but well enough off I don't care how much I spend on skates as long as they fit and work as planned. I play 3 times a week year round so I just want to make sure that whatever I get is going to fit and not cause problems. The reason for the new skates was my original steel is wearing down to the triangles on the 10's and missing a few rivets and 2 eyelets need repair so I thought maybe time to buy new skates, now I am almost wondering if I should just fix up the 10's. If I was changing to an MX3 boot that was going to be the ONLY change, was keeping APX2 tongue as I didn't like the MX3 tongue, APX2 outsole etc..So I think I might be leaning towards keeping the APX2 and just going with standard eyelets, heck I have them on my 10's and don't mind them so if that is the trade off for a comfy skate maybe its the way to go. I'm going to check that link you posted though, thanks.

Awesome! Fixing your skates will be the easiest route if they still have life left in 'em. However, if you do decide to go the VH Footwear route, let me know and send me a PM. I'll be able to help you out, so that way you'll get a great pair of skates (there a few things that Scott's ordering form doesn't mention, but that should be requested to increase the comfort/durability of the skate).

[DarkStar50 679]

With volume issues, stay away from the injected lacing system. Just my 2 cents....

[ericcg82 2]

I went back to the store yesterday and talked with the fitter, he showed me the paperwork and Bauer actually said they can't even add the 1" depth with standard eyelets to that skate and recommend going with a nexus boot. Both of us thought that might be too much but I tried it on anyway and it did look good as far as depth (so maybe Bauer know what they are talking about) but was a little more roomier so to speak in other parts of the skate. So my question is, if I went with a nexus 8000 custom would the measurements and tracings we have done make that boot fit more snug once custom but obviously give the depth I need or is it still going to have extra room where I don't necessarily need it? I told him to ask Bauer how much depth is possible to add to the APX2 1/2"? I'll be hearing from him today.

[Cove 39]

keep pushing based on things I've seen come through my shop theyre literally able to do what ever they want, they just don't always want to do it for non-pros despite the price tag.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Any modifications to volume on a custom Bauer boot, you lose the injected facing. It is one shape and can't be cut to accommodate the different shape of the upper when volume is added.

mc88 - the Supreme injected facing is a bit more curved (as opposed to the straight-walled Vapor version.) However, too much wrap isn't necessarily a good thing.

1" is HUGE.

You can't get Nexus 8000 custom - only 7000. They don't do 8000 custom at all, pro or retail.

[mc88 160]

From reading above, it seems like you should start branching out into other brands. It appears Bauer can't accommodate your needs and may push you into a compromising position...where they can do one thing but not the other. I seriously suggest you try looking into the CCMs. Perhaps the new CCM Tacks will be a deeper/wider fit (haven't bought a retail pair of skates since I went with VH... the fit, unfortunately, is something that you just won't find in a retail boot--the closest thing would be a Mako skate, but it's had it's problems, like the infamous, "Mako bump").

If what JR states is true about non-custom 8000s, then I would dump Bauer. While they have some of the best skates around, not being to modify a top-end skate for a paying customer is ridiculous. Not all feet are created the same!

[mojo122 538]

Bauer offers many options to achieve a truly custom fit. As someone who needs different sizing, bigger toe caps, and increased volume, I haven't had any fit issues with any of my 3 pairs of custom skates. I attribute that to the knowledge of the fitter. Not just anyone can fit a skater for custom skates. Takes both knowledge and experience.

Not trying to knock VH for their customs, but there appears to be a higher number of issues to go along with returned custom skates on their discount page.

[ericcg82 2]

Any modifications to volume on a custom Bauer boot, you lose the injected facing. It is one shape and can't be cut to accommodate the different shape of the upper when volume is added.

mc88 - the Supreme injected facing is a bit more curved (as opposed to the straight-walled Vapor version.) However, too much wrap isn't necessarily a good thing.

1" is HUGE.

You can't get Nexus 8000 custom - only 7000. They don't do 8000 custom at all, pro or retail.

Yeah sorry I think Bauer said 7000, and I was the one who thought well if I am going to get custom I might as well be the top of the line 8000, because not like I buy skates every year, but obviously it was for a reason. Sorry for the confusion but thanks for the clarification JR. I thought 1" was a lot (I read tape measures everyday in my line of work) do you know what the max depth they can add to an APX2 with standard eyelets? Maybe the Nexus is going to be the best option then,

mc88 - I used to wear tacks prior to buying my first pair of Bauer vapor 10 skates and I have loved these so a little hesitant to switch back, I know after 15 years the name is probably the only thing that is the same on the skates as materials and everything has changed.

I really appreciate all of your input into this matter, it helps me make a better informed decision instead of basing it off of one persons' opinion. I might have to just sit on my current skates until I can make up my mind although they are nearing the end.

[mc88 160]

Bauer offers many options to achieve a truly custom fit.

Guaranteed a custom pair of Bauer skates will never be this modified (form fitting)...

The main issue with VH skates is that the tendon guard is made too rigid. As a result, the copper rivet tends to break after 3-4 months. However, if you specify a more flexible tendon guard (which is what I've done), I'm sure that issue will no longer be a problem.

@ericcg82

Visually, your vapors are in pretty good shape actually. Just replace the holders with some newer style ones (perhaps LS2 holders and runners might be better... LS3 runners might be a bit too awkward of a jump). Or, if you have any damage, just send them in to George's Repair: http://www.hockeyrepair.com/skate_repair.html I hear they can do some awesome work!

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

If what JR states is true about non-custom 8000s, then I would dump Bauer. While they have some of the best skates around, not being to modify a top-end skate for a paying customer is ridiculous. Not all feet are created the same!

The 7000 is a top-end skate, just as the Vapor X90 is.

The reason why the 7000 is offered as opposed to the 8000 is because a traditionally-lasted skate was needed in the line - it's more versatile to work with. Working off the 7000 in both regular Nexus cut and Vapor cut, it gives the consumer more options; not everyone wants a Curv boot.

I submitted 2 orders for 7000s in July - one person who wanted his X:60s feel and one person coming from ClassicONEs.

I guess the question begs - why is a tendon guard being held together by a copper rivet?

[mc88 160]

The 7000 is a top-end skate, just as the Vapor X90 is.

The reason why the 7000 is offered as opposed to the 8000 is because a traditionally-lasted skate was needed in the line - it's more versatile to work with. Working off the 7000 in both regular Nexus cut and Vapor cut, it gives the consumer more options; not everyone wants a Curv boot.

I submitted 2 orders for 7000s in July - one person who wanted his X:60s feel and one person coming from ClassicONEs.

I guess the question begs - why is a tendon guard being held together by a copper rivet?

While a formed fitted boot is not for everyone, in this case, it seems applicable for someone who wants more depth and has bone spurs. The one size fits all, box-like fit that traditional skates offer works for those who have "normal" feet. But, as soon as you start having bones protruding or ankles that are not quite in alignment... you just get modifications to an existing boot last:

Versus a boot built specifically based off your foot tracings or, if you're local, based off a scanned in 3D model or a cast of your foot!

From what I've seen and read, not everyone has access to a local hockey shop or to a local fitter. In my case, I'm in the heart of San Jose, and nobody will even touch a skate, unless it's something easy like a holder/runner swap. So... when my RBK 9Ks took a crap, I had to send them back to CCM and wait 2 months before I got a replacement pair!

I'm in no way knocking the big 3: Bauer, CCM/RBK, and Easton. But there should be more options to choose from when it comes to customizable skates. Like buying shoes... who wants to be pigeon holed to Nike, Adidas, and Puma?

As for the copper rivet... my guess would be that it's an upgraded solution they've come up with since making the entire boot carbon fiber (as opposed to the thermoplastic MLX skates with a 3 point screw system). The copper rivet works great, but definitely not perfect... but then again, neither were the Bauer NXG tendon guards.

[Cosmic 178]

the fit, unfortunately, is something that you just won't find in a retail boot--the closest thing would be a Mako skate, but it's had it's problems, like the infamous, "Mako bump").

I have had some issues with skates in the limited time since getting back, but Makos feel so amazingly comfortable. We may have a similar shaped foot. I had toe box and volume issues in the Supreme One.9 LEs, and then switched to Mako. Yes, I got the Mako bumps badly, but all that I need is this:

http://www.icewarehouse.com/descpage.html?pcode=EZ2MM

To mitigate the issue. $15 well spent. I link this one because the 3 mm does not come in XL for anyone reading this who is size 10+ (in skate sizes).

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

While a formed fitted boot is not for everyone, in this case, it seems applicable for someone who wants more depth and has bone spurs. The one size fits all, box-like fit that traditional skates offer works for those who have "normal" feet. But, as soon as you start having bones protruding or ankles that are not quite in alignment... you just get modifications to an existing boot last:

From what I've seen and read, not everyone has access to a local hockey shop or to a local fitter. In my case, I'm in the heart of San Jose, and nobody will even touch a skate, unless it's something easy like a holder/runner swap. So... when my RBK 9Ks took a crap, I had to send them back to CCM and wait 2 months before I got a replacement pair!

I'm in no way knocking the big 3: Bauer, CCM/RBK, and Easton. But there should be more options to choose from when it comes to customizable skates. Like buying shoes... who wants to be pigeon holed to Nike, Adidas, and Puma?

As for the copper rivet... my guess would be that it's an upgraded solution they've come up with since making the entire boot carbon fiber (as opposed to the thermoplastic MLX skates with a 3 point screw system). The copper rivet works great, but definitely not perfect... but then again, neither were the Bauer NXG tendon guards.

You're assuming that a) I don't know the process and b) that those custom skates not made by VH are simply modifications to an existing boot last.

I've been fitting custom skates for the past 15 years and have seen the custom skate building process first-hand. I've done castings that have been poured to make custom skates. I've been flown in cross-country by customers; I've had customers fly in. There is a thread on here with several skates that I've fitted. And you will see that there's been a ton of modifications done that aren't listed on a spec sheet.

It is garbage in, garbage out when it comes to fittings. The difference is when I submit an order to Bauer, it isn't garbage. I've never had a rejected/revised pair. However, judging by all of the further revisions that I've seen members send to VH indicates that it isn't Scott's fault.

[laserrobottime 149]

In this thread: fanboys.

[ericcg82 2]

So if I am not mistaken from reading previous threads, when you order customs all the widths are true? So if I was DA for vapor skate then doing a custom Nexus 7000 you would still be DA because the Vapor is a true to its widths?

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

So if I am not mistaken from reading previous threads, when you order customs all the widths are true? So if I was DA for vapor skate then doing a custom Nexus 7000 you would still be DA because the Vapor is a true to its widths?

That is indeed correct. The retail sizing for widths do not match up to the true last width.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

[hyster110 3]

i had a depth issue with my APX and they made a skate that fits my foot like no other skate i have ever used. IMO the injected lacing is just another added that is cool, but isnt worth losing your custom skate for.

[Cavs019 710]

Is the Nexus 7000 custom in the same price range as the APX2/MX3 (excluding any store specific pricing on top of the cost from Bauer)?

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Yes.

Is the Nexus 7000 custom in the same price range as the APX2/MX3 (excluding any store specific pricing on top of the cost from Bauer)?