China - A complete lack of respect for technology, equipment & copyright

[aviery 11]

How is something like this allowed?

These business should be targeted one by one and shot down by the REAL manufacturers.

It's taken Bauer, CCM, Easton and other top end hockey companies years to perfect their technology. Years of hard work, research, testing and upgrades so that the pro's and all hockey players alike can reap the benefits of quality, high performance sticks, shafts and blades.

Is it right for a handful of Chinese based 'half way house' 'sorry excuse' for manufacturers to simply knock off their R&D to produce cheap and nasty fake equiptment?

Where's the copyright law stand in all of this?

This here makes me so frustrated!

[kovalchuk71 212]

Welcome to the world we live in. They do the same thing with Rolex, Tag Heuer, Beats by Dre, and plenty of other items. What makes this any different?

[ulf 5]

i wonder how they perfrom. prolly the same as the original. since everything is made in china

[AIREAYE 248]

I don't think it's fair to lump the entire country's manufacturer into such a vitriolic title, but unfortunately, many people share similar views fueled by years of similar stories. It's a problem for everyone involved for sure, but I'm optimistic that we'll see less of it in the future, be it in hockey sticks or powdered milk.

Intellectual property protection is poor, and companies are always risking that when they outsource their manufacturing. The entire manufacturing sector is intensely competitive, with cheap labor being harder and harder to find, further incentivizing factory owners to market their commodities without authorization. The availability of e-commerce marketplaces like eBay and Tmall makes it easier.

Central government crackdowns on corruption look optimistic, but it'll take more than that to drastically curb these practices. Consumers are becoming more aware of the dangers of certain counterfeit products. Prominent marketplaces like AliBaba are taking a stand against these practices (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21573980-alibaba-trailblazing-chinese-internet-giant-will-soon-go-public-worlds-greatest-bazaar). You'll never be able to take away these practices, but hopefully it's moving in the right direction.

The guys in your link there are experienced for sure. They have the specs and materials. If they build it, it won't be of poor quality or 'cheap', but neither will it be legitimate.

Manufacturers are always pursuing these cases, trust me. It's very difficult to do so.

[IPv6Freely 2084]

Good timing with this topic since TSN is doing a 3-part special on counterfeit jerseys/autographs/etc.

[cmflynn 16]

I kind of have mixed feelings, on the one hand it sucks to take the time and effort and resources to develp a product and bring it to market and have someone steal your designs and profit from them. On the other hand, when you move all your manufacturing out of North America so you can take advantage of countries that have virtually no labor laws so you can pay and treat your workforce slightly better than slave, I'm not going to cry for you when you find out those countries are also lax on patent and trademark enforcement. Couple that with the fact that the build quality of these counterfeit products are as good as the authentics for a 3rd to a10th of the price (for instance I bougth an authentic B's jersey a few years back and paid around $300, my friend got the same style wholesale chinese knock off for $35 and the only way you could tell the difference was the size tag), that's kind of what you get for price gouging.

[ulf 5]

they're not super cheap at all.

but what exactly are they doing wrong if they don't blast bauer or ccm on the stick, besides giving the consumers another choice at a better price?

Technology: One-piece construction

Surface Treatment: UD, 3K, 12k, 18K
PU Blade core: P92, P7, P3, P02 or according to client' requirement
Flex: 80, 90, 100, 110 or accoriding to client' requirment
Material: Carbon Fiber (The composite could be 50% to 100% carbon, up to customers' requirement)
Size: Senior, Intermediate, Junior, Youth Or according to the client' requirement
Shaft: Square doubel concave
Grip: With grip or Without grip
Hand: Right & Left
Weight: 430, 410, 450, 470, 490, 510 Or According to client' requirement
LOGO: Customer's requirement

Experience: 20 years professional in making carbon fiber products for hockey Stick
Design: R &D development. We can develop customize mould and complex graphics.
Advanced technology: We use one-piece technology to make our high-end stick.
Performance: Stable Quality, the balance of playability, durability and accepted by the market
QC: Strict quality control in each producing phase and used for universal testing machine make some test
Price: Competitive and best in the line of carbon composite
Delivery time: Punctual and fast
Perfect after-sale service

k

[AIREAYE 248]

I kind of have mixed feelings, on the one hand it sucks to take the time and effort and resources to develp a product and bring it to market and have someone steal your designs and profit from them. On the other hand, when you move all your manufacturing out of North America so you can take advantage of countries that have virtually no labor laws so you can pay and treat your workforce slightly better than slave, I'm not going to cry for you when you find out those countries are also lax on patent and trademark enforcement. Couple that with the fact that the build quality of these counterfeit products are as good as the authentics for a 3rd to a10th of the price (for instance I bougth an authentic B's jersey a few years back and paid around $300, my friend got the same style wholesale chinese knock off for $35 and the only way you could tell the difference was the size tag), that's kind of what you get for price gouging.

I'm going to disagree with you on these 2 points here. Firstly, the people making your sticks and skates are not treated like 'slaves'. Labor laws are loose, sure, but relative only to North American standards, which combined with rising labor costs in NA is what drives manufacturers to outsource. No one's 'price gouging', there are other costs involved other than labor and materials. Those selling the counterfeit jerseys are not incurring the marketing or R&D costs.

they're not super cheap at all.

but what exactly are they doing wrong if they don't blast bauer or ccm on the stick, besides giving the consumers another choice at a better price?

Technology: One-piece construction

Surface Treatment: UD, 3K, 12k, 18K

PU Blade core: P92, P7, P3, P02 or according to client' requirement

Size: Senior, Intermediate, Junior, Youth Or according to the client' requirement

Weight: 430, 410, 450, 470, 490, 510 Or According to client' requirement

LOGO: Customer's requirement

Experience: 20 years professional in making carbon fiber products for hockey Stick

Design: R &D development. We can develop customize mould and complex graphics.

k

Interesting point, and I left these specific lines in your quote to illustrate a point about the "Customer's Requirement". Is it wrong to slap a CCM or Bauer on these things and sell them as APX2s? Yes, no doubt. Is it wrong to sell them sans logo? Not really, unless certain patented technologies are used. Carbon fibre sticks are commodities. AFAIK, neither 3K carbon fibre, Polyurethane foam nor 'one-piece construction' is proprietary to anyone.

Now, secondly, where do you think that some of these small independent 'start-up' companies get their sticks done? They can request the popular patterns, offer pricepoints at the 430g, 470g and 510g, and slap their company logo (or not, *ahem*) on it to boot.

It amuses me that the people who praise some of these newer companies on their sticks go ahead and label these counterfeits as being of considerably lesser quality. They can be the exact same! Funny what a logo can do!

[stick9 881]

One thing that always irks me when this topic comes is people don't understand the difference in culture. I'm not a fan of moving manufacturing out of the U.S. but it's part of doing business today.

Anyway, people don't understand that kids in China work, if not at a factory it would be on a farm or a marketplace, that's just part of their culture.

The quality of the knock off product I have seen is slightly above shit and the cost is usually on par with the real one.

[AIREAYE 248]

One thing that always irks me when this topic comes is people don't understand the difference in culture. I'm not a fan of moving manufacturing out of the U.S. but it's part of doing business today.

Anyway, people don't understand that kids in China work, if not at a factory it would be on a farm or a marketplace, that's just part of their culture.

The quality of the knock off product I have seen is slightly above shit and the cost is usually on par with the real one.

Kids don't work and that's not part of the culture, we're not talking about 14 year olds here. That's another (perhaps outdated) misconception. But the rest of your point is valid for many emerging economies. The alternative to paid factory work for many people is subsistence farming or other labor. This was the case for China 20-30 years ago and before.

[IPv6Freely 2084]

Honestly some of this topic could get merged with the "OEM and Hockeytron" thread, since much of this conversation has already occurred there.

[stick9 881]

The term "kids" probably wasn't the best way to gety point across. That gives people the impression it's grade school age. Teens and young adults would be a better way to combat my point.

China's inability or desire to ignore US patents and intellectual property is worse than their lax labor laws. There is a great deal of counterfeit product we don't see, many of which is only sold in or around China itself.

[AIREAYE 248]

I agree with your second paragraph, though I believe that it's trending towards the better as per my arguments in my very first post up there.

As a side note, you'll see more of this pop-up with other growing manufacturing bases (you already do actually, with a simple Google search) like Vietnam and Indonesia. China's manufacturing base is considerably more mature so I'm hopeful that as that sector continues its trajectory we will see less of this. But then again, would we not see similar issues in the future with companies moving manufacturing to Vietnam or Indonesia?

[stick9 881]

Depends how those countries view our trade laws. I'd wager part of the motivation behind moving to those areas is their willingness to respect those laws.

[AIREAYE 248]

I have no idea into the nuances of those laws, do you? I'd wager that it's boiled down to cheaper labor.

[stick9 881]

I have no idea into the nuances of those laws, do you? I'd wager that it's boiled down to cheaper labor.

Not enough to speak intelligently on it. I do know that Maylsia respects US patents and IP, that's first hand info as the company I work opted to build a factory there over other countries in the region because of it.

Labor costs are only a small part of it. From what I am told, it's not the main reason why companies do it.

[AIREAYE 248]

It's a really fascinating economic and geo-political topic that I'm very interested in exploring in greater detail down the road. For the scope we have here, let's leave it at that.

[AIREAYE 248]

Not enough to speak intelligently on it. I do know that Maylsia respects US patents and IP, that's first hand info as the company I work opted to build a factory there over other countries in the region because of it.

Labor costs are only a small part of it. From what I am told, it's not the main reason why companies do it.

Also, check this out: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

It's a ranking system done by the World Bank in ranking the Ease of Doing Business. Malaysia is definitely up there, usually top 3 or 4 in most categories. The other 2 places that are up there are Singapore and Hong Kong. With the lack of cheap labor in either and monstrously expensive property in Hong Kong, no wonder Malaysia seems like a good place!

[rawkstar 45]

Has anyone ordered these?

I'm just a consumer, without any affiliation to any company. It's a little bit ridiculous seeing hockey sticks selling for $300 a piece, what's the markup on those? Like a million %? I'm sure they could all still turn a profit if they sold top of the line sticks for $80. As a consumer I don't really care, if I can get an identical product for an amount I can afford.

[flip12 699]

Depends how those countries view our trade laws. I'd wager part of the motivation behind moving to those areas is their willingness to respect those laws.

My only thought is, when it comes to China, since it has such an enormous population, it has more bargaining power and the government knows it. It's much harder to play hardball with the US or the European economy if you're the size of Indonesia or Vietnam.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Depends how those countries view our trade laws. I'd wager part of the motivation behind moving to those areas is their willingness to respect those laws.

I have no idea into the nuances of those laws, do you? I'd wager that it's boiled down to cheaper labor.

Yeah, China's becoming a bit too expensive now.

[ulf 5]

Has anyone ordered these?

I'm just a consumer, without any affiliation to any company. It's a little bit ridiculous seeing hockey sticks selling for $300 a piece, what's the markup on those? Like a million %? I'm sure they could all still turn a profit if they sold top of the line sticks for $80. As a consumer I don't really care, if I can get an identical product for an amount I can afford.

can't order just one. you have to buy 10 @ 85 each. so that eliminates many people. dunno how much shipping is.

mods should organize a group buy and have them slap mod squad hockey on the stick. i'm sure they would sell many while pimping the site

[IPv6Freely 2084]

can't order just one. you have to buy 10 @ 85 each. so that eliminates many people. dunno how much shipping is.

mods should organize a group buy and have them slap mod squad hockey on the stick. i'm sure they would sell many while pimping the site

That's... Kind of a neat idea actually...

[ulf 5]

That's... Kind of a neat idea actually...

what's good about it is that i don't think have to buy 10 of the same stick, so it will work for people,. + this will allow feedback for the product for others to use

[IPv6Freely 2084]

what's good about it is that i don't think have to buy 10 of the same stick, so it will work for people,. + this will allow feedback for the product for others to use

I obviously have a problem with knockoff jerseys and such but no real problem with sticks that aren't trying to mislead (which is why tron sticks seemed like a good idea until they started painting them to look like knockoffs). With that in mind I think MSH sticks as a promo item would be pretty neat. As long as we all understand exactly what it is we're getting.