China - A complete lack of respect for technology, equipment & copyright

[squat 5]

really??? on the VH footwear comment. You are actually trying to insinuate there is an issue with VH Skates? I have talked a good bit to Scott and there are some people buying skates that have UNINFORMED opinions on exactly HOW to skate but its their demands so they think as a custom skate they need to get what they want. We have had a number of good laughs bout guys and their shims and lifts most guys dont even know how to skate correctly but they want to shim the skate because someone else did. Most of his NHL skaters are LESS demanding than for instance people from this board. For some reason color me stupid. I think an NHLer is going to be more intune what his skates are doing than some of the guys here I have met. Most Skaters profile the blade because you dont like it you can fix it, but thats free advice from the EM that does skates for the #1 goal scorer in the NHL

Point is know the back story before bashing on VH. Its the best skate i have ever worn and when I was skating 18-24 hours a week and getting paid pretty well to do it as an official, i have owned about every brand out there, and usually have two pairs.

IN fact I currently have NXGs and Vh, and the VH are head and shoulders above.

[squat 5]

From what I have read, many of these factories in China provide the R&D or at least jointly work on it with the brands. So Im not sure why all the China bashing is going on here. Other countries also make copy products and a lot of my hockey gear is made in Thailand and Vietnam but seems like everyone is focused on China for some negative way.

Personally I dont care where my product is made as long I feel it was worth the money I paid for it. All the big brands have strict compliance laws and guides now so I doubt my Bauer stick is being made by a kid in China somewhere for less than minimum wage.

I agree and I find it SO interesting that all the top end sticks MAGICALLY cost the same price. I mean imagine that all these guys end up having the same amount of R&D and materials into the sticks. Of course the MAP is 269.99 but thats after the "sale" price from 320.00. They then paint the pros 10 year old sticks to look like the new version. While they build the one95s for their pros. Why because some mom will drop 600+ on twigs so their kid can be the next Jack Johnson, that name is intended.

Other industries would call that price fixing. Too bad all these Hockey dads and moms that are lawyers dont do that.

I cant say where I am getting my info from but these guys especially in the Northern US are making a killing on the sticks and there isnt as much R&D as you think.

I know there is all this "manufacturer support" for this forum but lets be honest they see it as a free marketing tool and this whole no leaks? How exactly is not posting someones released skate hurting this sight? Other than getting a free batch of sticks for the Mods and some other guys on the board? Of course the marketing guys have the ears of the people here so they do whatever they want.

Sorry for offending but I am wondering how not showing Bauers new stick early that has been in the HANDS of their PROS since the second month of the season helps the forum? Again its not like we get a discount on sticks or other gear. Testing skates and sticks are cool, for some people.

And FWIW, I am one of the guys that has the cars the one guy referenced and I dont buy the 260$ sticks because you dont need them! Buy the second tier, its closer to what your favorite pro uses then the BS the marketing team wants you to think your favorite pro uses. And to the Marking guys, are you nuts? If you literally put Ovies exact specs or close enough you could charge 500$ for them. But I guess you dont want people to know what Ovie actually uses, and dont say its because we are scared EASTON is gonna find out, you might be concerned that 300$ new one coming out won't sell as well. Because parent will wonder why IF the 2nd or 3rd version of a 3 year old stick is good enough for a pro... why they would buy the new one for 300$.

Lastly, Mom and Pops dont make a thing... because the bauers, eastons, etc are making all the money.

[Stewie 721]

yep, easton had been making a killing of late........ http://nypost.com/2014/08/29/20m-loan-financed-pe-firms-purchase-of-easton-hockey/

[chippa13 1844]

You could have saved all that typing and just went with, "I'm a dick." For every top level skater who knows exactly what he needs there is another who doesn't know a thing about what he is skating on.

As for questioning the site's policies, well, that attitude just confirms the post that you should have gone with.

[jonesy9020 77]

In order to prove price fixing, you would have to show evidence of some agreement between the manufacturers that they agreed on the price. Merely showing that they charge the same price on similar levels of sticks is not enough. There is no evidence that that has occurred, to my knowledge. Similar prices can be and usually are explained by competition on the market.

Example I always use is gas prices. Texaco puts up a price of $2.50. Shell sees that and decides they'll also charge $2.50, without ever talking to texaco. There's no legal problem with doing that. There IS a problem if Texaco and Shell talk to each other the night before and decide jointly to set their price at $2.50. (For purposes of this example, Shell and Texaco are independent companies that don't fall under the same corporate umbrella)

So reasonably, Warrior, CCM, Bauer, Easton could all decide independently that the market will bear a price of $259 for their sticks. They're all market leaders in sticks, so that's not surprising. Sherwood, on the other hand is trying to gain a greater market share, so they'll price at 199-219 for their top sticks in an effort to draw people away from brand loyalty.

Skates, as discussed, are a different issue. Everyone is all about Bauer and brand loyalty is probably a bigger deal than with sticks due to finnicky fits and an unwillingness to try something new for $800. That, I think, is why you see Bauer's top skates at $850 (they know people will pay) and other brands like CCM and Reebok priced lower, at 700 or 800. The difference is even more drastic as you move down the line. E.g. a 6052 goes for $530, while an X100 goes for $700 and an X90 for $600.

So yeah, absent a smoking gun phone call, or some economic behavior that totally doesn't make sense for a company to do unless they're agreeing with another, this isn't price fixing. And everything I've seen so far in the industry leads me to believe that it's not.

TL;DR: Don't level baseless claims at companies unless you have evidence to back it up.

[AIREAYE 248]

squat, none of us understands what the heck you just rambled about...

[Stewie 721]

In order to prove price fixing, you would have to show evidence of some agreement between the manufacturers that they agreed on the price. Merely showing that they charge the same price on similar levels of sticks is not enough. There is no evidence that that has occurred, to my knowledge. Similar prices can be and usually are explained by competition on the market.

Example I always use is gas prices. Texaco puts up a price of $2.50. Shell sees that and decides they'll also charge $2.50, without ever talking to texaco. There's no legal problem with doing that. There IS a problem if Texaco and Shell talk to each other the night before and decide jointly to set their price at $2.50. (For purposes of this example, Shell and Texaco are independent companies that don't fall under the same corporate umbrella)

So reasonably, Warrior, CCM, Bauer, Easton could all decide independently that the market will bear a price of $259 for their sticks. They're all market leaders in sticks, so that's not surprising. Sherwood, on the other hand is trying to gain a greater market share, so they'll price at 199-219 for their top sticks in an effort to draw people away from brand loyalty.

Skates, as discussed, are a different issue. Everyone is all about Bauer and brand loyalty is probably a bigger deal than with sticks due to finnicky fits and an unwillingness to try something new for $800. That, I think, is why you see Bauer's top skates at $850 (they know people will pay) and other brands like CCM and Reebok priced lower, at 700 or 800. The difference is even more drastic as you move down the line. E.g. a 6052 goes for $530, while an X100 goes for $700 and an X90 for $600.

So yeah, absent a smoking gun phone call, or some economic behavior that totally doesn't make sense for a company to do unless they're agreeing with another, this isn't price fixing. And everything I've seen so far in the industry leads me to believe that it's not.

TL;DR: Don't level baseless claims at companies unless you have evidence to back it up.

exactly. not all video games cost the same amount to produce/market/etc, but somehow they all end up starting out at 59.99. so they add a few tweaks and a roster update for the 15 version over the 14 on sports games. hockey is far from the only industry that has this occur, maybe we should just be angry at all industries.

[DarkStar50 679]

squat: "For some reason color me stupid."

Well, there you have it.

[mojo122 530]

You could have saved all that typing and just went with, "I'm a dick." For every top level skater who knows exactly what he needs there is another who doesn't know a thing about what he is skating on.

As for questioning the site's policies, well, that attitude just confirms the post that you should have gone with.

We need a new site feature such as.....Post of the Month.....

[ulf 5]

the thing is people can't seem to get over the whole "made in china" thing and automatically assume it's cheap and of poor quality. the thing is, not just "cheap things" are made in china now for export. ........ the chinese will make anything and the labor cost is cheap..not necessarily the product. to make matters even more "lol" is that most of the hockey stuff is already made there...lol @ saying "knockoff" if it's the same.

i wouldn't be surprised if you got an even better product than the original if it's batch made....and at the very least the same quailty, as it might be exactly the same just w/o graphics

[jonesy9020 77]

We're talking about two different things. 1) Products made in China under authorization from the major manufacturers, which, if you can't deal with globalization as the norm at this point, I'm sorry, but that's the world we live in. 2) Products made in China with an intent to mimic the major brands and make some money with no other costs besides manufacturing. It's a freerider problem. Piggybacking off of Bauer/CCM/Easton's marketing efforts to sell a different product AND detract from sales they would have had.

Actually maybe 3. 3) Generic sticks made in China with no branding or at least not claiming to be another brand.

I have no problem with 1, cause, you know, I have to keep living on this planet. 2 is morally wrong and illegal. 3 is okay, I think of it the same way I think of generic drugs.

[Zjack38 46]

Squat doesn't know squat, sorry I had to say it. :p

[Amiroo39 121]

Where are iphones made? ($8.5 billion in earnings for the last quarter for Apple) Just saying you can get great stuff made in China too.

[Sputnik20 46]

I hope this kind of relates to the topic.

Example 1: My wife works for a company which has a certain "culture" of making sure that all of their product is made from materials (cotton, wool, denim, silk, leather, etc) from nations, farms, vendors that practice fair wage, are environmentally sustainable, and ethical. Additionally the factories that sew their products, have to adhere to very strict labor practices (in China and elsewhere) as might be expected in a North American establishment. As a prime example, they do not purchase cotton from Uzbekistan (her home country) due to the absence of ethical labor laws.

Example 2: I work for a company which leases servers (similar to the one MSH leases from their provider) to individuals/companies. Those same individuals then run their sites, games, etc on their server. I constantly receive complaints from companies or lawyers representing companies regarding a customer of ours hosting a fake product site of one kind or another. Sun glasses, watches, belts, purses, NFL jerseys, etc.

As such, do the hockey companies share similar "cultural values" as my wife's company? Or are they there for the lower cost higher profits and greater manufacturing capabilities? Buying knock-offs may be wrong, same as downloading music or movies without paying for them, but they exist because there is a demand for it.

Lastly, we as a society no longer put quality as our primary selling point, we lease cars for 3 years, we get the new iPhone as soon as it comes out, we get skates every year, etc. Everything seems to be "throw-away". Products are no longer made to last. There is no pride in today's manufacturing to the masses. Remember the original Bauer 3000 skates? Tacks 652's? Mega 10-90's? They were not made of "space age" composite, yet they served you well, especially if you took care of them. There is something to be said for hockey products of that era, made by hockey players for hockey players.

The Chinese made products, whether authentic or knock-offs are temporary and disposable, because what's $300 for a stick? We use it once and put it away in the garage once the LE comes out three months later.

[kovalchuk71 212]

Yeah that wasn't meant to be an outright condemnation of everything that they made during that stretch, but rather that I think their reputations all took hits with the release of one or two models that seemed to have a heck of a lot of durability issues. Lot of people who after having a U+ original, an Easton Synergy (I think, it was one of the early all composite skates) or any number of Graf skates decided they were taking their business elsewhere. Not saying it's rational behavior, but it happens. I just can't think of a Bauer skate during that stretch of time that got as universally panned for durability issues.

One90

[AIREAYE 248]

I hope this kind of relates to the topic.

Example 1: My wife works for a company which has a certain "culture" of making sure that all of their product is made from materials (cotton, wool, denim, silk, leather, etc) from nations, farms, vendors that practice fair wage, are environmentally sustainable, and ethical. Additionally the factories that sew their products, have to adhere to very strict labor practices (in China and elsewhere) as might be expected in a North American establishment. As a prime example, they do not purchase cotton from Uzbekistan (her home country) due to the absence of ethical labor laws.

Example 2: I work for a company which leases servers (similar to the one MSH leases from their provider) to individuals/companies. Those same individuals then run their sites, games, etc on their server. I constantly receive complaints from companies or lawyers representing companies regarding a customer of ours hosting a fake product site of one kind or another. Sun glasses, watches, belts, purses, NFL jerseys, etc.

As such, do the hockey companies share similar "cultural values" as my wife's company? Or are they there for the lower cost higher profits and greater manufacturing capabilities? Buying knock-offs may be wrong, same as downloading music or movies without paying for them, but they exist because there is a demand for it.

Lastly, we as a society no longer put quality as our primary selling point, we lease cars for 3 years, we get the new iPhone as soon as it comes out, we get skates every year, etc. Everything seems to be "throw-away". Products are no longer made to last. There is no pride in today's manufacturing to the masses. Remember the original Bauer 3000 skates? Tacks 652's? Mega 10-90's? They were not made of "space age" composite, yet they served you well, especially if you took care of them. There is something to be said for hockey products of that era, made by hockey players for hockey players.

The Chinese made products, whether authentic or knock-offs are temporary and disposable, because what's $300 for a stick? We use it once and put it away in the garage once the LE comes out three months later.

No there isn't. There's no money to be made in this space for anybody to run a business focusing primarily on ethical sourcing, not like the market for fair trade/organic food, apparel or other crafted goods.

[jimmy 194]

One90

Yes, that was a disaster. But it gets a free ride by the brainwashed.

[Axxion89 32]

Any company that sources manufacturing overseas weighs the risks of having their IP stolen. You either stay domestic, source through a 3rd party, or make your own presence. Most of the hockey industry seems to use 3rd party manufacturers which saves the most money but at the same time increases the risk because you don't have the same level of oversight on IP security. If you find out that there's some knock off products us by your IP, you can try and shut them down or just keep going knowing that people are loyal to your brand.

As for the whole quality made in USA thing, I can tell you first hand that's a load of BS. While the USA can make some quality things, let's not forget that American Cars for a long time were awful compared to Japanese cars. I can cite even more examples where overseas quality meets or exceeds US quality such as with guitars, electronics, etc. you get the same quality at a fraction of the cost. The reason why gear isn't lasting as long has nothing to do with wear it's made but how it's designed / components used

[Chadd 916]

I can cite even more examples where overseas quality meets or exceeds US quality such as with guitars, electronics, etc. you get the same quality at a fraction of the cost.

In some cases, I agree, but that is not yet the case with guitars yet in my experience. When you get to the same levels of craftsmanship, components and wood selection, the prices start to become much, much closer. Gibson has gone completely off the deep end with their pricing, someone like Fender or Heritage would be a far better point of comparison.

[jimmy 194]

Everything Chinese I have bought is junk compared to a North American product, tools, electronics, hobby, hockey and more. About the only thing I've been happy with is the iphones. it's not fair to compare Japanese quality with Chinese. As far as hockey equipment, I've seen first hand the loss of quality over the years. Could it be the companies letting QA go downhill, perhaps. But when you are Paying less than $1 wages for labor, you can afford to replace something under warranty and still make huge profits. It's all about profits.

[stick9 881]

In some cases, I agree, but that is not yet the case with guitars yet in my experience. When you get to the same levels of craftsmanship, components and wood selection, the prices start to become much, much closer. Gibson has gone completely off the deep end with their pricing, someone like Fender or Heritage would be a far better point of comparison.

I'd put a Japanese made ESP up against any American made Gibson, Heritage, or Fender. I'd do the same with an Ibenez as well. Now granted, those are both made by Japanese companies in their own factories.

Quality is what companies make of it. If you let oversea factories make crap, they will. They like to cut corners to make money. And if you don't own the factory controlling that is extremely difficult.

[Axxion89 32]

In some cases, I agree, but that is not yet the case with guitars yet in my experience. When you get to the same levels of craftsmanship, components and wood selection, the prices start to become much, much closer. Gibson has gone completely off the deep end with their pricing, someone like Fender or Heritage would be a far better point of comparison.

Schecter & ESP make a very very good guitar for something built overseas. The only "Made in China" guitar I found to be as good as a USA built guitar was an EVH Wolfgang Special. The thing was superb and people wouldn't believe it was made in China. Fender & Gibson's USA built guitars have been hit or miss. Some have been excellent, others are complete garbage. The standards by which a company holds its products is of more concern to me than where its made IMO.

[Chadd 916]

I used to have an ESP Vintage Plus strat and an ESP Ron Wood tele, both very good guitars. However, both of them were the same price as American models from Fender. The USA made Schecter line is great, the imports are hit or miss. I will say that the LTD line from ESP has some really strong products for the cost. I have an LTD ST203 that I like a lot, but it isn't even close to the quality of my 93 MIJ strat.

Just looking at the numbers, a new ESP E-II Vintage plus Strat is more than a new American Standard Strat. You can argue that it is as good or better, that's largely a preference thing, but it's obviously not done so at a fraction of the cost. That was the point I was trying to address. The really good imports (usually from Japan, not China) cost nearly the same as the American made products.

I think Eastman is the company from China to watch over the long term. A little more attention to detail and they could put out a very nice product.

[stick9 881]

id be willing to bet that E-II is a better built instrument. Fender and Gibson have been living off their names for years. Sure I lust after a early 70's LP Custom, but wouldn't even consider a new Gibby.

My issue isn't that companies are opting to manufacture in China, it's China blatant disregard for US copyright and trademarks. If you buy a fake X1 and you think it sucks, it looks bad on Bauer. it's their name that gets soiled and that just botherse to no end.

[DarkStar50 679]

There was an article in the WSJ that the Chinese are getting really pissed off with the quality of New Balance shoes........