China - A complete lack of respect for technology, equipment & copyright

[AIREAYE 248]

Has anyone ordered these?

I'm just a consumer, without any affiliation to any company. It's a little bit ridiculous seeing hockey sticks selling for $300 a piece, what's the markup on those? Like a million %? I'm sure they could all still turn a profit if they sold top of the line sticks for $80. As a consumer I don't really care, if I can get an identical product for an amount I can afford.

Again, I stress that the $300 includes MORE than labor and materials. These factories are not paying to market or develop these sticks!!

I'll give you an example, Bauer's currently taking a close look at cases of people selling some of these counterfeit sticks (literally out of the back of a van). You can actually see a bunch of their ads on Kijiji, selling 'MX3s', 'Nexus 8000s' etc. for $180, when we can see here that the factories are selling composite sticks for $80 a piece. These people do not incur the costs of marketing and R&D!

I can personally guarantee you that nobody is making insane profits in the hockey gear business. Nobody.

My only thought is, when it comes to China, since it has such an enormous population, it has more bargaining power and the government knows it. It's much harder to play hardball with the US or the European economy if you're the size of Indonesia or Vietnam.

Bargaining power in terms of what?

I obviously have a problem with knockoff jerseys and such but no real problem with sticks that aren't trying to mislead (which is why tron sticks seemed like a good idea until they started painting them to look like knockoffs). With that in mind I think MSH sticks as a promo item would be pretty neat. As long as we all understand exactly what it is we're getting.

Right, so the fact that these factories are selling these composites shouldn't bother anyone unless they start using patented technology developed by Bauer, Easton etc. Which it doesn't seem like they do in the spec sheet. The unethical occurrence of having one of these sticks being LABELED and SOLD AS an MX3, Superfast etc. seems to be offered, but that option is at the discretion of whomever purchases them.

[flip12 699]

Bargaining power in terms of what?

However much any given country has to do business on American or European terms.

[BucksAway 16]

I wish I could trial and buy some of these! After breaking ANOTHER stick in the past 6 months I have gone through 6 sticks, varying brands.

3 Easton Mako's split down the blade vertically

An older Easton ST has chipped at the toe of the blade

1 Warrior snapped, cracked from a slash and 2 minutes later snapped

1 Bauer NXG just snapped :(

Tired of spending couple 150+ on sticks to have them break a month later. I think i'm done with the high end sticks. Will not be spending 150+ on a stick for a long long time

[Chadd 916]

mods should organize a group buy and have them slap mod squad hockey on the stick. i'm sure they would sell many while pimping the site

We have had the option of putting our brand on quality gear in the past and have declined to do so. There is no chance of us doing so with unethical manufacturers that have no respect for intellectual property.

i wonder how they perfrom. prolly the same as the original. since everything is made in china

That has not been my experience, every piece of knock off gear that I have seen/used has been junk.

[shooter27 116]

Has anyone ordered these?

I'm just a consumer, without any affiliation to any company. It's a little bit ridiculous seeing hockey sticks selling for $300 a piece, what's the markup on those? Like a million %? I'm sure they could all still turn a profit if they sold top of the line sticks for $80. As a consumer I don't really care, if I can get an identical product for an amount I can afford.

Manufacturers aren't making huge margins on sticks and those margins get even thinner when you account for R&D investments (which generally aren't included in cost of goods sold so they don't affect gross margins). All you have to do to realize that is take a look at Bauer's public financial filings. Could they sell "top end" sticks for $80 and make a profit? Well, if you wanted the top end stick to still have the same technology and materials as the original SyNergy from a dozen years ago, sure. When those sticks came out they sold for $125 I believe, definitely less than $150. Im sure they could sell that stick as the top end stick around the $80 price point today, but then you'd be complaining that sticks haven't improved in a dozen years. It's just like buying a car, we all want the latest and greatest and would all love to drive top end luxury cars, bite we can't all afford to, so you buy thy best performing car you can for what you can afford. You don't complain that it's unfair that a Ferrari costs $200,000 and say that Ferrari is making too much money on their cars.

[shooter27 116]

You're 100% correct. My point was more that just because you or I can't afford, or choose not to pay for, a Ferrari doesn't mean that it's in some way inherently wrong that they cost what they do. Just like the fact that people can't afford, or choose not to pay for, $300 ops doesn't mean that it's somehow inherently wrong that some sticks cost that much.

I also understand that people equate high price with high performance AND durability, but the reality is that combination rarely exists in any product, be it sticks or cars. The most expensive cars are always the most temperamental in terms of durability and the most expensive to repair. A friend of mine owns a Maserati, the thing always has something wrong with it and it costs a ton to repair. He spends north of $10k/year in maintenance from what he says. But he always says if he wanted a durable car he'd buy a Honda. Take the highest performance version of almost any product out ther - cars, boats, golf clubs, hockey sticks, you name it and they're almost always the least durable. It's because to reach the highest ends of performance manufacturers need to push the limits of what the product can withstand, and when you push limits, things break.

[ulf 5]

i'm not so sure these are knock offs. it sounds like you can make a semi custom stick at 1/3 price. ..allbeit you have to buy 10 and pay 1k..so there is risk to an individual buyer if they do come back inferior and cheaply made

[Stewie 721]

can't order just one. you have to buy 10 @ 85 each. so that eliminates many people. dunno how much shipping is.

mods should organize a group buy and have them slap mod squad hockey on the stick. i'm sure they would sell many while pimping the site

very bad idea. This site has a good reputation with the major manufacturers, I dont feel like they would be too happy if the site were to push sales for a ton of these cheapo sticks and slap the MSH name on them, further pushing the cheapos.

Has anyone ordered these?

I'm just a consumer, without any affiliation to any company. It's a little bit ridiculous seeing hockey sticks selling for $300 a piece, what's the markup on those? Like a million %? I'm sure they could all still turn a profit if they sold top of the line sticks for $80. As a consumer I don't really care, if I can get an identical product for an amount I can afford.

completely off. If your version of the stick industry were true, than it would be virtually impossible for the manufacturers to fail or flounder, but we see this all the time.

[flip12 699]

However much any given country has to do business on American or European terms.

Realized I should add another significant form of leverage in this negotiation: being the source of manufacturing, there's no risk to being cut off by the offended nations: they simply have no other option. This is related to the first point (huge [population size -> domestic market -> domestic work force]), but may not last forever given the fact, already noted, of rising costs associated with manufacturing in China.

[jimmy 194]

Skilled workers in China's Apple factory make $1.10 an hour and work 11 hr days, 6 days a week. I'd venture to say less skilled workers in the hockey manufacturing make even less than that. Those of us who've been in the hockey retail business back when gear was made in North America know that the quality and durability of the Chinese gear is not up to the same standards. It's poorly made, they cheap out on materials (seam overlap is one example), and total lack of quality control ( 5 out of every 10 Vapor skates with mismounted holders in another example). But we have ourselves to blame, when we refuse to pay $100 for a pair of Canadian made gloves and instead choose the cheaper offshore version, so how long can that Canadian factory stay open when we bailed on them. I have other hobbies where the equipment has gone thru the same copycating. Same as for hockey equipment, the equipment is of poor quality and durability sucks. Also, good luck trying to get something repaired.

[strosedefence34 175]

Has anyone ordered these?

I'm just a consumer, without any affiliation to any company. It's a little bit ridiculous seeing hockey sticks selling for $300 a piece, what's the markup on those? Like a million %? I'm sure they could all still turn a profit if they sold top of the line sticks for $80. As a consumer I don't really care, if I can get an identical product for an amount I can afford.

I took a part time job at my mom and pop hockey shop just on the weekends as I have a full time job during the week. I knew the owners discount was letting the employees buy everything at cost + shipping just so he doesn't loose money. I was shocked to see how little of a mark up there is on hockey equipment. Maybe bigger shops like Hockey Giant and Hockey Monkey get a better price when buying from companies, but I can tell you for a fact that the mark up isn't as great as one would think.

[AIREAYE 248]

Skilled workers in China's Apple factory make $1.10 an hour and work 11 hr days, 6 days a week. I'd venture to say less skilled workers in the hockey manufacturing make even less than that. Those of us who've been in the hockey retail business back when gear was made in North America know that the quality and durability of the Chinese gear is not up to the same standards. It's poorly made, they cheap out on materials (seam overlap is one example), and total lack of quality control ( 5 out of every 10 Vapor skates with mismounted holders in another example). But we have ourselves to blame, when we refuse to pay $100 for a pair of Canadian made gloves and instead choose the cheaper offshore version, so how long can that Canadian factory stay open when we bailed on them. I have other hobbies where the equipment has gone thru the same copycating. Same as for hockey equipment, the equipment is of poor quality and durability sucks. Also, good luck trying to get something repaired.

$1.10/hr and 11hrs x 6d versus what else jimmy? $0.50/hr and 15hrs x 7d out on the farm or mine? That's not the issue here.

Quality control has been an issue for sure, but you seem to have this idea that anything made out of a Canadian factory is inherently better than one made in an overseas factory. It's not WHERE it's made, but WHY it's made where it is. Manufacturers go overseas because it's too costly to produce domestically, you know this. But who do you think ultimately controls the end product? Manufacturers. They have the option to monitor the supply chain in greater detail, request better materials and select an 'ethical' production group to manufacture the product. But why do you see these issues you brought up? Because (like you said) manufacturers, and by extension, consumers, have no demand for it. You want to reduce that rate of mis-mounted holders (which I think is completely trivial in many cases, though I do see a few bad ones every now and then)? Spend more to control the supply chain, but that defeats the purpose essentially.

People who think like you will never be satisfied with overseas production, it's sentimental, I get it. But I think that with hockey costing as much as it is, having the availability of that $50 stick or glove, or $100 skate, goes a long way for the market. Quality may be a sacrifice, yes, but given how most people don't seem to notice or mind, I think it's a good tradeoff for progress.

[chippa13 1844]

The companies share the blame for quality with, and folks will hate this, the consumer. People complain about Bauer initial quality but flock in droves to buy Bauer skates. Money is what ultimately drives company behavior and if gear is selling then there is no incentive to inject capital into the process.

[rawkstar 45]

The price of top of the line sticks is just what the market will bear, it has nothing to do with what it actually costs. None of the big boys could change the price even if they wanted to, because then their product would be seen as somehow inferior by the public.

I am just happy that not every stick costs $300, lol I wish there was a decent $30 tier for sticks. Or maybe a brand that focused on usability and durability, I wish there was like a Honda of hockey sticks, and that not all of them tried to be Ferrari. :)

[chippa13 1844]

Each brand makes their Honda version of a stick. Several of those price point sticks are held in high regard around this site.

[jonesy9020 77]

IMHO, the top fused construction stick in most lines is usually a great balance of performance, durability, and price. Another good benchmark to find your Honda tends to be the 450-480g weight class. That said, you're still probably looking at $100-$150 rather than $30.

[IPv6Freely 2084]

Yup, $100-130 is the sweet spot for price vs performance, generally.

[aviery 11]

This topic was never intended to stir mixed feelings however I’m impressed by the level and amount of passionate opinions. We appear to have drilled quite far down into the microeconomic nuances of the situations, which can be appreciated by all because the knowledge gained from a thread like this is invaluable however, before we go full circle, and to keep it simple.

I appreciate my equipment and pay top dollar for it because I love the game and I'm passionate about hockey. I happen to like high-end equipment because in my personal opinion it offers a greater return on investment and I love the technological advancements and innovation of the gear.

I'm also brand loyal and appreciate all that my chosen brands stand for from R&D to innovation to marketing to culture etc. and as a consumer, makes me happy when I fork out a premium for equipment I know has a quality and reputable source. I also appreciate that the product has been sold to me by a professional sales person who knows the product inside out and can offer quality feedback and information, has a 30 day warranty that I know will be honored and a replacement can be obtained without fuss. I also LOVE to support my Local Hockey Shop that bends over backwards for it’s customers in a very small hockey market here in Sydney Australia.

What these companies are doing regardless of the quality of their product is wrong on so many levels and opens the door to imitation bulk sales. My fear is that type of activity can dilute the market for sticks if individuals start ordering large quantities of fake product and start selling it them selves for a small profit because in the end, it’s the end user that will suffer using a falsely branded piece of technology that will never offer what the real deal can. Even if the difference is a few grams in weight and a slightly different material.

[AfftonDad 88]

ABHS are the sweet spot for me right now. I'm not good enough to make a $250+ stick make sense. However, I unfortunately allowed myself to fall in to the trap a few years back of buying $250 sticks. After that, everything less expensive felt so heavy that I felt handicapped using them, so I had to continue buying the expensive ones. I'm a jaded old guy so I could care less about how "cool" my stick looks or whether or not I'm using the same stick as my favorite pro player. So when I found out about ABHS and found that they are around the same weight as a $250 stick, I gave them a shot and have been happy with the results. A guy I play with has broken 3 ABHS sticks in the same number of weeks and he has sworn he is never buying them again. However, he has the hardest shot of anyone I play with. That's not an issue for me so I'm sticking with them for now.

What's the consensus on them? Does anyone know if they on shaky ground with regards to intellectual property?

[jonesy9020 77]

The companies share the blame for quality with, and folks will hate this, the consumer. People complain about Bauer initial quality but flock in droves to buy Bauer skates. Money is what ultimately drives company behavior and if gear is selling then there is no incentive to inject capital into the process.

Not sure I buy this. I don't really think we're to blame given the apparent lack of quality control (or just making a good product) for almost every major manufacturer at different times over the past 10 years, especially when buying new gear that hasn't been on the market for too long. And really, what choice is there? CCM and Easton made terrible quality skates for many years, and even newer models like the RBZ and Mako have shown a significant number of durability issues. Graf skates had a terrible reputation for bent steel and mismounted holders for the longest time, and Reebok skates were notorious for splits in the quarter panels. So when the choice at least appears to be between a whole boot breaking down, rivets coming loose all the time, eyelets popping out, and mismounted holders, who are we supposed to go to? I suppose the rather meticulous attention to detail used on handmade skates like VH is one option, but not everyone can afford dropping $800 on a pair of skates.

At this point Bauer is certainly the "cool name" in skates, and I don't think that's a good reason to buy them, but I think they got there by consistently providing a quality durable product while the rest of the industry was cutting corners. I think a lot of the other brands are making a valiant effort to make it back, but you can't blame consumers for recent QC issues at Bauer when Bauer's been the ONLY major skate manufacturer over the past 10 years to consistently make a decent skate.

TL;DR: Yes there is Bauer fanboying. Yes it's annoying when there are new products out and Bauer's quality seems to be slipping. But the reasons for the consumer "flocking" seem legitimate when every other skate manufacturer pumped out garbage between ~03 and about ~11.

[chippa13 1844]

Given the number who folks who have shipped VH skates back for tweaks and fixes (sometimes multiple times) I would hardly recommend that route. Strangely enough, I have had good luck with the durability and quality of my last 4 pairs of skates made by CCM, Reebok, and Easton.. Four pairs of skates that got me through the last 12 years.

[Chadd 916]

You're 100% correct. My point was more that just because you or I can't afford, or choose not to pay for, a Ferrari doesn't mean that it's in some way inherently wrong that they cost what they do. Just like the fact that people can't afford, or choose not to pay for, $300 ops doesn't mean that it's somehow inherently wrong that some sticks cost that much.

Buying fake sticks is like buying a $20,000 car with a Ferrari logo. You're only doing it to enhance how other people perceive you. In the case of hockey gear, the buyers will try to convince themselves and others that the quality is just as good in order to justify the purchase when they are called out on it.

ABHS are the sweet spot for me right now. I'm not good enough to make a $250+ stick make sense. However, I unfortunately allowed myself to fall in to the trap a few years back of buying $250 sticks. After that, everything less expensive felt so heavy that I felt handicapped using them, so I had to continue buying the expensive ones. I'm a jaded old guy so I could care less about how "cool" my stick looks or whether or not I'm using the same stick as my favorite pro player. So when I found out about ABHS and found that they are around the same weight as a $250 stick, I gave them a shot and have been happy with the results. A guy I play with has broken 3 ABHS sticks in the same number of weeks and he has sworn he is never buying them again. However, he has the hardest shot of anyone I play with. That's not an issue for me so I'm sticking with them for now.

What's the consensus on them? Does anyone know if they on shaky ground with regards to intellectual property?

I've used generic factory sticks, they're generally mid level quality. You can get them for a little less than a retail stick of the same quality, but not enough to justify the lack of warranty or support in my opinion.

[jonesy9020 77]

Given the number who folks who have shipped VH skates back for tweaks and fixes (sometimes multiple times) I would hardly recommend that route. Strangely enough, I have had good luck with the durability and quality of my last 4 pairs of skates made by CCM, Reebok, and Easton.. Four pairs of skates that got me through the last 12 years.

Yeah that wasn't meant to be an outright condemnation of everything that they made during that stretch, but rather that I think their reputations all took hits with the release of one or two models that seemed to have a heck of a lot of durability issues. Lot of people who after having a U+ original, an Easton Synergy (I think, it was one of the early all composite skates) or any number of Graf skates decided they were taking their business elsewhere. Not saying it's rational behavior, but it happens. I just can't think of a Bauer skate during that stretch of time that got as universally panned for durability issues.

[shafted 6]

From what I have read, many of these factories in China provide the R&D or at least jointly work on it with the brands. So Im not sure why all the China bashing is going on here. Other countries also make copy products and a lot of my hockey gear is made in Thailand and Vietnam but seems like everyone is focused on China for some negative way.

Personally I dont care where my product is made as long I feel it was worth the money I paid for it. All the big brands have strict compliance laws and guides now so I doubt my Bauer stick is being made by a kid in China somewhere for less than minimum wage.

[DarkStar50 679]

A random thought from the other side of the room..........as easy as it seems to "trash" Chinese made equipment and manufacturing, has it occurred to anyone that a lot of the gear we wear that is made in China is the same gear that the pros wear? Not every pro in Bauer skates is wearing custom Bauer skates from St. Jerome. They are wearing retail made in China Bauer skates. The Pro Stock OPS come from the same factories as the retail OPS. Those pros wearing Bauer 4 roll gloves, Vapor gloves, CCM gloves are wearing gloves made in China. The simple point is that what we get for beer league is made right along side what they get for big league. Yes, I know EQMs are going to tweak product at the player's request but there is no secret Shangri-La for making pro gear.........