Sparx Skate Sharpener - At home sharpener

[218hockey 50]

On 1/4/2020 at 12:56 PM, pgeorgan said:

In other news, tried out 5/8 fire ring and now I own a 5/8 fire ring. 😀

I tried the 5/8" Fire and got the thumbs down from my son. So we used it once, he didn't like it. But I still own it!

[VegasHockey 1280]

23 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

No need to search the thread, I've been following it since day one. That's why I was wondering why the sudden talk of NFC.

 

15 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

Why did you quote me on that? 😂

Because you said the following above which was implying RFID and NFC are different. At least, thats how I read it. No biggie. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

4 minutes ago, 218hockey said:

I tried the 5/8" Fire and got the thumbs down from my son. So we used it once, he didn't like it. But I still own it!

I've used every single ROH and FIRE and I seem to always go back to 1" ROH on all of my standard width steel, but on my Flare steel I like the 3/4" FIRE

[VegasHockey 1280]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, ItsTJOSHIE said:

My questions :

1) Prosharp home or Sparx? what are the differences?
2) Can you really get a good sharpening, or will it be at best the same as some LHS now using teenager operated home sparx/prosharp machine ?
3) Is it really user friendly and build like a tank or with time the things becomes loose, misaligned, and you need to fiddle with it to get it going ?
4) how good is the warranty/support in Europe ? or inexistent ?
5) Any flaws ? reliability issues ? you guys have experienced ?
6) Is it reasonable to use this in an apartment ? They say you can use it in your kitchen but ... I dont see myself sharpening next to the pasta bake. 

Also note, I'm currently based in Europe. Eye watering >1k at the monkey, when I used to see big discount ads on MSH in the previous years. 

Thanks for reading 

1: The difference is Sparx you pay less upfront for the machine but pay more over time with the rings, the Pro Sharp consumable rings last much longer. I did the match and if you keep both units they end up costing the same after 2 years assuming you only use one ROH. If you are using various ROH for different players and such the Pro Sharp is significantly more expensive. 

2: Yes, I have done blind back-to-back testing in our store with Sparx and Pro Sharp portable units and 95% of players cannot tell the difference. I think it has a lot to do with the prep prior to sharpening and then finishing after the sharpening. 

3: Yes, they are both user-friendly and fairly simple to adjust

4: Sparx warranty is much better than Pro Sharp in my experience

5: None that I can speak to. 

6: I would say the Sparx can be used anywhere, living room, garage, wherever, it has a built-in filter and is a closed cycle system. I still would not use it in my kitchen though as there has to be some debris that escapes through the top of the unit. Better to be safe than sorry. The Pro Sharp has much more debris though, I would recommend using it with a vacuum attached to help control the metal shavings, based on this I would not recommend that to be used in your home amnd only use it in a garage or some other space. 

 

 

[218hockey 50]

1 hour ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

I've used every single ROH and FIRE and I seem to always go back to 1" ROH on all of my standard width steel, but on my Flare steel I like the 3/4" FIRE

Interesting.

We had used 1/2" Fire for the last 6 months. We just wanted to try the 5/8 and unfortunately that's a downfall with this automated machine. It cost me $60 and one skate to find out we like the 1/2".

Oh well, I suppose I can put it on eBay. 

[colins 246]

55 minutes ago, 218hockey said:

Interesting.

We had used 1/2" Fire for the last 6 months. We just wanted to try the 5/8 and unfortunately that's a downfall with this automated machine. It cost me $60 and one skate to find out we like the 1/2".

Oh well, I suppose I can put it on eBay. 

 

Or keep it and use it the same as you would a cross grind ring (ie: taking steel down to eliminate sidewall nicks or badly damaged edges). Or for cutting new steel which requires 8-10 passes. It'll help save the lifespan of your usual ring.

colins

 

[lfc26 3]

22 hours ago, colins said:

 

If lfc26 wants to continue to look at ways to hack the ES100 and/or PS100 or ES100 rings, perhaps that discussion belongs in a new thread?

The theme so far seems to be "I've bought the cheaper unit but want all the advantages of the more expensive one" which is going to be a bit confusing for the average Joe looking for Sparx info in this thread.

well no it's not the theme....but thanks for telling me.

I'm just trying to figure out the real differences because the Sparx marketing is great but they are leaving consumers in the dark in terms of the functionality and quality of sharpenings with their PS100 commercial units.

How should we make a qualified buying decision when there's quite a lot of intransparency and little possibility to compare both consumer/commercial products? They are posting NHL teams using these machines but it's extremely difficult for the average user to get any information on the real technical and monetary differences like how much are the grinding rings, are they made out of the same materials, how many cycles are possible with both versions....

And to add up on my main issue which is pricing across europe, It's not my fault that their resellers are messing with Sparx and are implementing an unfair price policy across europe while revealing non public information on both consumer and commercial rings . It's also not my fault that I'm a bit of a tinkerer who wants to find out if he may be able to pay 75$ instead of 80$ for sharpening stones in europe.

And lastly, I do think removing the cross grinding functionality is a business decision and not primarily a safety decision which is a f* you in the face of everyone who got early involved with Sparx or interested in the machine...

Nevertheless, I'm happy with the machine itself although I feel getting the right depth of cut requires more than 4 cycles and this drives sharpening costs higher.

All these issues have to be considered when buying the machine all over the world. It's especially bitter for those buying the machine fully believing it still has the cross grinding capability.

 

My goal is just to make things better and more transparent for future international buyers!

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by lfc26

[colins 246]

7 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

well no it's not the theme....but thanks for telling me.

I'm just trying to figure out the real differences because the Sparx marketing is great but they are leaving consumers in the dark in terms of the functionality and quality of sharpenings with their PS100 commercial units.

How should we make a qualified buying decision when there's so little possibility to compare both products? They are posting NHL teams using these machines but it's totally intransparent for the average user to get any information about the real technical and monetary differences like how much are the grinding rings, are they made out of the same materials, how many cycles are possible with both versions....

And to add up on my main issue which is pricing across europe, It's not my fault that their resellers are messing with Sparx and are implementing an unfair price policy across europe while revealing non public information on both consumer and commercial rings . It's also not my fault that I'm a bit of a tinkerer who wants to find out if he may be able to pay 75$ instead of 80$ for sharpening stones....as an european customer.

And lastly, I do think removing the cross grinding functionality is a business decision and not primarily a safety decision which is a f* you in the face of everyone who got early involved with Sparx or interested in the machine...

Nevertheless, I'm happy with the machine itself although I feel getting the right depth of cut requires more than 4 cycles and this drives sharpening costs higher.

All these issues have to be considered when buying the machine all over the world. It's especially bitter for those buying the machine fully believing it still has the cross grinding capability.

 

My goal is just to make things better and more transparent for future international buyers!

 

 

The Sparx page has a table comparing the capabilities of the ES100 vs. PS100: https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/commercial-homepage

The units are essentially the same, with the PS100 having added external filtration, which Sparx determined was necessary for high volume use and for Cross Grinding.

The rings are the same but the consumer rings are coded for the ES100 and the commercial rings (which are discounted) are coded for the PS100.

I don't think any of this is news to you as you've figured that out from web sources and questions here already.

The rest was about how to possibly use the cheaper ES100 unit with the discounted PS rings - this would obviously not be supported by Sparx and would requiring altering the ring or the unit. I was just suggesting that conversation be taken to a different thread specific to hacking the Sparx. Others including myself are no doubt interested in this, but it may be confusing for the average Joe coming here reading this thread who just wants to know if he should buy a Sparx to sharpen his kids' skates.

Bottom line is if you want support from Sparx, Cross Grinding and discounted rings, do the math and see if the extra expense of the PS100 makes sense or not. 

 

 

 

[lfc26 3]

8 minutes ago, colins said:

 

The Sparx page has a table comparing the capabilities of the ES100 vs. PS100: https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/commercial-homepage

The units are essentially the same, with the PS100 having added external filtration, which Sparx determined was necessary for high volume use and for Cross Grinding.

The rings are the same but the consumer rings are coded for the ES100 and the commercial rings (which are discounted) are coded for the PS100.

I don't think any of this is news to you as you've figured that out from web sources and questions here already.

The rest was about how to possibly use the cheaper ES100 unit with the discounted PS rings - this would obviously not be supported by Sparx and would requiring altering the ring or the unit. I was just suggesting that conversation be taken to a different thread specific to hacking the Sparx. Others including myself are no doubt interested in this, but it may be confusing for the average Joe coming here reading this thread who just wants to know if he should buy a Sparx to sharpen his kids' skates.

Bottom line is if you want support from Sparx, Cross Grinding and discounted rings, do the math and see if the extra expense of the PS100 makes sense or not. 

 

 

 

it's not very nicely detailed in my view. There's no comparison in terms of costs,durability and (as you pointed out not possible) cross usability of grinding rings between both plattforms which is a major factor when buying a sharpening machine

Edit  sorry to you..., got it the wrong way..

I'm just not fully happy with the cost/usability factor for myself atm in europe. and for the love of.... I can't get the right depth of hollow with just 2 or 3 cycles on averagely used blades which drives me nuts when paying 80$ for sharpening rings:-)

Edited January 6, 2020 by lfc26

[colins 246]

26 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

 

And lastly, I do think removing the cross grinding functionality is a business decision and not primarily a safety decision which is a f* you in the face of everyone who got early involved with Sparx or interested in the machine...

 

 

 

Its comments like that which leaves me scratching my head... again what kind of crazy conspiracy theory is that? I was on the Kickstarter with many others here, go re-read the Campaign and FAQ and updates from Russ and hopefully you'll see what kind of foolishness this looks like to those who got involved early. 

colins 

[colins 246]

10 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

it's not very nicely detailed in my view. There's no comparison in terms of costs and cross usability of grinding rings.

Edit  sorry to you..., got it the wrong way..

I'm just not fully happy with the cost/usability factor for myself atm in europe. and for the love of.... I can't get the right depth of hollow with just 2 or 3 cycles on averagely used blades.

 

Do you have a good edge checker? The alignment tool is decent, but most users have found that even after using the alignment tool, a good edge checker is required to exactly dial the alignment in such that you get perfectly level edges.

Once you get steel sharpened on the Sparx to a particular ring/hollow, it shouldn't take more than 2 or 3 cycles for a maintenance sharpening, I do that all the time.

However if one of my kids brings home a teammates skates that were sharpened somewhere else are are very damaged, it takes 4 or more cycles before I'm satisfied to send them out the door.

In either case, I always use my edge checker to verify I'm cutting perfectly level edges, and if I'm concerned about the hollow I'll use the marker test.

 

colins

Edited January 6, 2020 by colins

[lfc26 3]

7 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Its comments like that which leaves me scratching my head... again what kind of crazy conspiracy theory is that? I was on the Kickstarter with many others here, go re-read the Campaign and FAQ and updates from Russ and hopefully you'll see what kind of foolishness this looks like to those who got involved early. 

colins 

well ok it may not be false advertising which sounds a bit harsh. The explanation for removing this feature, although added later on, is still a total joke. All you had to do is to vaccum your skate tray more often .. and in the meantime it became the main feature of the commercial version ... come on.. this doesn't take a lot of creativity.

all is good and sorry to you but we won't agree on that;-)

Edited January 6, 2020 by lfc26

[colins 246]

Just now, lfc26 said:

well even then it may not be false advertising, but the explanation for removing this feature, although added later on, is still a total joke. All you had to do is to vaccum your skate tray more oftennn come on... and in the meantime it became the main feature of the commercial version ... come on.. this does:t take a lot of creativity

It's not just vacuuming the tray you have to replace the internal filter more often.

In the USA especially there's an issue of liability. "I followed the directions in the manual which said change the filter every 4 rings, I didn't know the Cross Grind ring could cause my machine to start smouldering and burn my house down"... once those original manuals went out with the firmware coded for forcing a filter change every 4 rings, you can't put the cat back in the bag.

Yes, they could have revised the firmware and revised the documentation, and forced more frequent filter changes, but at the end of the day they determined using cross grind rings on a machine designed with only internal filtration was not something they wanted to do. And as a true consumer oriented home user, do I care at all? Not a bit - I probably would have bought a X-Grind ring just to have it on hand, but I've had zero instances in the past 4 years of ownership where I felt I really needed one.

Was I f*'d in the face and somehow missed noticing it? Why are you so upset about that but it doesn't bother me at all? If I wanted the  X-Grind I'd sell my unit and get the PS100. But that makes no sense to me as a home user.

 

[lfc26 3]

6 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Do you have a good edge checker? The alignment tool is decent, but most users have found that even after using the alignment tool, a good edge checker is required to exactly dial the alignment in such that you get perfectly level edges.

Once you get steel sharpened on the Sparx to a particular ring/hollow, it shouldn't take more than 2 or 3 cycles for a maintenance sharpening, I do that all the time.

However if one of my kids brings home a teammates skates that were sharpened somewhere else are are very damaged, it takes 4 or more cycles before I'm satisfied to send them out the door.

In either case, I always use my edge checker to verify I'm cutting perfectly level edges, and if I'm concerned about the hollow I'll use the marker test.

 

colins

unfortunately not. The cut depth is what puts me off. compared to manual 1/2'' sharpenings it's a lot less prominent.

[lfc26 3]

15 minutes ago, colins said:

It's not just vacuuming the tray you have to replace the internal filter more often.

In the USA especially there's an issue of liability. "I followed the directions in the manual which said change the filter every 4 rings, I didn't know the Cross Grind ring could cause my machine to start smouldering and burn my house down"... once those original manuals went out with the firmware coded for forcing a filter change every 4 rings, you can't put the cat back in the bag.

Yes, they could have revised the firmware and revised the documentation, and forced more frequent filter changes, but at the end of the day they determined using cross grind rings on a machine designed with only internal filtration was not something they wanted to do. And as a true consumer oriented home user, do I care at all? Not a bit - I probably would have bought a X-Grind ring just to have it on hand, but I've had zero instances in the past 4 years of ownership where I felt I really needed one.

Was I f*'d in the face and somehow missed noticing it? Why are you so upset about that but it doesn't bother me at all? If I wanted the  X-Grind I'd sell my unit and get the PS100. But that makes no sense to me as a home user.

 

I know the liability differences thanks. and I'm not angry at you. I got it wrong the first time. We just wont agree on this specific issue. the steps mentioned by you are exactly the right approach. change the documentation and push for regular air filter swaps. but this is not the common approach these days, as we know...

although a minor thing, unfortunately it triggered me because it's just adding up to the other issues that I've pointed out.

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by lfc26

[IPv6Freely 2092]

4 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

 

Because you said the following above which was implying RFID and NFC are different. At least, thats how I read it. No biggie. 

Not different, but that doesn't mean it's NFC, either. All good. I just wanted to clarify because the sudden usage of "NFC" in the thread. 

[IPv6Freely 2092]

BTW for those talking about the cross grind rings, they did sent out an addendum to the manual and also printed new manuals for future shipments. They also sent out free filters to existing customers. 

I have no problem with the lack of a cross grind ring. For the once every couple years I might find the desire to cross grind, I can hit up the LHS. Just like I cant profile, I also cant cross grind. Really not a big deal. 

[colins 246]

12 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

unfortunately not. The cut depth is what puts me off. compared to manual 1/2'' sharpenings it's a lot less prominent.

 

Are you able to measure the hollow somehow? How do you know the manual 1/2" is closer to a 'true' half inch than the Sparx 1/2"? 

Here's an interesting video from Sparx, it's about their Fire rings not Radius but it will give some insight into the kind of depth they put into precision with this machine when it was created:

 

 

Their Youtube channel has a bunch of great technical content mixed amongst the marketing stuff. The 3 history/prototype videos that show the creation and evolution of the machine I found quite interesting. The first in the series is this one:

 

 

 

[lfc26 3]

14 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Are you able to measure the hollow somehow? How do you know the manual 1/2" is closer to a 'true' half inch than the Sparx 1/2"? 

Here's an interesting video from Sparx, it's about their Fire rings not Radius but it will give some insight into the kind of depth they put into precision with this machine when it was created:

 

 

Their Youtube channel has a bunch of great technical content mixed amongst the marketing stuff. The 3 history/prototype videos that show the creation and evolution of the machine I found quite interesting. The first in the series is this one:

 

 

 

thanks collins  for posting the videos, The first video which explains how they care about tight tolerances during the manufacturing process basically made me buy the machine:-) That's why i was surprised to see such differences after all. Very well it could be the manual sharpening which was off.it just took me more than 4 passes on flat skates to reach a similar result.

Edited January 7, 2020 by lfc26

[darkhors 88]

16 hours ago, colins said:

It's not just vacuuming the tray you have to replace the internal filter more often.

In the USA especially there's an issue of liability. "I followed the directions in the manual which said change the filter every 4 rings, I didn't know the Cross Grind ring could cause my machine to start smouldering and burn my house down"... once those original manuals went out with the firmware coded for forcing a filter change every 4 rings, you can't put the cat back in the bag.

Yes, they could have revised the firmware and revised the documentation, and forced more frequent filter changes, but at the end of the day they determined using cross grind rings on a machine designed with only internal filtration was not something they wanted to do. And as a true consumer oriented home user, do I care at all? Not a bit - I probably would have bought a X-Grind ring just to have it on hand, but I've had zero instances in the past 4 years of ownership where I felt I really needed one.

Was I f*'d in the face and somehow missed noticing it? Why are you so upset about that but it doesn't bother me at all? If I wanted the  X-Grind I'd sell my unit and get the PS100. But that makes no sense to me as a home user.

 

I'm a home user and when I bought the machine they were selling X-Grind rings. I didn't get it with my initial purchase, but when I went back to buy one a couple months later, I couldn't. Even though I wouldn't use it that often, I shouldn't be punished for the stupidity of others. Maybe I'm just more detailed, but I don't go more that 4 or 5 sharpenings without vacuuming out the tray, top of the air filter and the machine in general. So now because some dummies didn't clean there stuff properly I'm not allow to use something that was originally available. Is it a "necessity"? No. However, it was one of the selling points of why I purchased one in the first place. I didn't want to have to go to my LHS to have them cross grind new steel when I buy it. That's why I bought my own sharpener.  🤦‍♂️

[Leif 161]

On 1/6/2020 at 7:25 PM, SkateWorksPNW said:

1: The difference is Sparx you pay less upfront for the machine but pay more over time with the rings, the Pro Sharp consumable rings last much longer. I did the match and if you keep both units they end up costing the same after 2 years assuming you only use one ROH. If you are using various ROH for different players and such the Pro Sharp is significantly more expensive. 

2: Yes, I have done blind back-to-back testing in our store with Sparx and Pro Sharp portable units and 95% of players cannot tell the difference. I think it has a lot to do with the prep prior to sharpening and then finishing after the sharpening. 

3: Yes, they are both user-friendly and fairly simple to adjust

4: Sparx warranty is much better than Pro Sharp in my experience

5: None that I can speak to. 

6: I would say the Sparx can be used anywhere, living room, garage, wherever, it has a built-in filter and is a closed cycle system. I still would not use it in my kitchen though as there has to be some debris that escapes through the top of the unit. Better to be safe than sorry. The Pro Sharp has much more debris though, I would recommend using it with a vacuum attached to help control the metal shavings, based on this I would not recommend that to be used in your home amnd only use it in a garage or some other space. 

 

 

Good information, but I’ll add a few minor points. 

1) Russ from Sparx explained earlier in this thread that ProSharp and Sparx have different ways to describe usage. A ProSharp sharpening is one pass, and a Sparx sharpening is multiple passes (they used to assume four, they now assume fewer). And the Sparx removes more metal per pass. Hence the Sparx is cheaper, according to the CEO. I recommend you read post 32 from Zamboni Fever. ProSharp have not posted a rebuttal, make of that what you will. 

3) The Sparx is more user friendly in that you can you can program in four passes and it will do four passes. The ProSharp needs the button pressing  for each pass. But the ProSharp is more portable as it is much lighter. IMO the Sparx is not portable unless there are two people, or one strong person. The Sparx is VERY strong. I know someone who dropped his down a flight of stairs. It survived. And it has taken wrist shots to the glass without issue. The ProSharp is said to be strong too.

6) My Sparx is in the spare bedroom, but it could sit on a kitchen worktop quite happily. It really creates almost no mess, a few metal shavings. If used regularly, then I agree best not in the kitchen. 

 

As far as I can see the Sparx is a copy of the ProSharp with more up to date electronics, and it is made in China rather than Europe which reduces manufacturing costs. The huge cost difference decided it for me, but if I regularly travelled with it, I’d buy the ProSharp. Some people happily travel with the Sparx, so decide for yourself. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Leif

[stick9 890]

I tend to do a fair amount of honing after sharpening on my Sparx, so no, I would not use it in a kitchen or any place like that. Mine sits nicely on a workbench in my basement.

[VegasHockey 1280]

9 minutes ago, stick9 said:

I tend to do a fair amount of honing after sharpening on my Sparx, so no, I would not use it in a kitchen or any place like that. Mine sits nicely on a workbench in my basement.

I have a whole setup for my personal unit in my garage, all my extra sets of steel, hones, oils, and such. Lots of skate sharpening goodies 🙂 

[Leif 161]

58 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

I have a whole setup for my personal unit in my garage, all my extra sets of steel, hones, oils, and such. Lots of skate sharpening goodies 🙂 

Presumably a heated garage? Mine is cold and damp, unsuitable for a Sparx but that’s sunny England for you. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

20 hours ago, Leif said:

Presumably a heated garage? Mine is cold and damp, unsuitable for a Sparx but that’s sunny England for you. 

In Scottsdale, AZ it rarely gets cold enough I need a heated garage. 😉