Speedblade holder vs. Tuuk LS2 holder, not a fan of Tuuk Edge

[bthompson1286 7]

I'm thinking about replacing my Tuuk Edge holders on my bauer vapor skates.  I currently have 1x skates i've been skating in for about a month.  I do not like the Tuuk Edge holder.  I was a big fan of the Tuuk Ls2 holder and i've skated in current CCM skates  that have the speedblade holder as well.  Has anyone gone from the edge back to the LS2 or to the Speedblades?  what were your opinions?  is there anything that I would have to be aware of?  Thank you for the feedback in advance.  

The reason I don't like the edge holder is i don't feel solid on it.  I feel like it flexes more than the other holders mentioned.

I'm 5'11 175lbs.  8% bodyfat

[Jamarquan 201]

10 minutes ago, bthompson1286 said:

I'm thinking about replacing my Tuuk Edge holders on my bauer vapor skates.  I currently have 1x skates i've been skating in for about a month.  I do not like the Tuuk Edge holder.  I was a big fan of the Tuuk Ls2 holder and i've skated in current CCM skates  that have the speedblade holder as well.  Has anyone gone from the edge back to the LS2 or to the Speedblades?  what were your opinions?  is there anything that I would have to be aware of?  Thank you for the feedback in advance.  

The reason I don't like the edge holder is i don't feel solid on it.  I feel like it flexes more than the other holders mentioned.

I'm 5'11 175lbs.  8% bodyfat

I've had no real problems with my SB+4.0 (with SB Black steel) on my Tacks Vector Pros, which I now have after a pair of Supreme 160s where I never really liked them, but that may have been the skate. One thing I will say is that the Vectors have a much more solidly built base .However, I don't tend to notice holders much, so take my advice with a grain of salt. 

[chippa13 1844]

26 minutes ago, bthompson1286 said:

I'm thinking about replacing my Tuuk Edge holders on my bauer vapor skates.  I currently have 1x skates i've been skating in for about a month.  I do not like the Tuuk Edge holder.  I was a big fan of the Tuuk Ls2 holder and i've skated in current CCM skates  that have the speedblade holder as well.  Has anyone gone from the edge back to the LS2 or to the Speedblades?  what were your opinions?  is there anything that I would have to be aware of?  Thank you for the feedback in advance.  

The reason I don't like the edge holder is i don't feel solid on it.  I feel like it flexes more than the other holders mentioned.

I'm 5'11 175lbs.  8% bodyfat

Which steel do you have? Maybe try putting some LS2 steel in the Edge holders and see how that feels.

[bthompson1286 7]

32 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

Which steel do you have? Maybe try putting some LS2 steel in the Edge holders and see how that feels.

I do have ls2 steel in my skates and i have fusion as a back up.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I liked the 4.0 but a couple Pro guys from the summer skate were not fans. I took the one players to mount his Edge holders on his new tacks and when I got back to the shop figure skater now skating coach Elvis Stoyko was at the shop to pick up his new VH skates.  Anyway we got talking and the CCM skates were the same size and he wanted to try them. First thing he said was the tower in the heel wasnt strong enough. He could feel the flex just trying it on. And when I went back the next day all 3 guys in the room in CCM said .... yah thats it.... I feel like it tourques on me. So the ones I put the Edge holders on and lined them straight are working pretty good. His team just won 11 straight games. So must be something to it?  (On his 2nd set of holders since the summer though). 

[bthompson1286 7]

On 12/22/2016 at 11:49 PM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

I liked the 4.0 but a couple Pro guys from the summer skate were not fans. I took the one players to mount his Edge holders on his new tacks and when I got back to the shop figure skater now skating coach Elvis Stoyko was at the shop to pick up his new VH skates.  Anyway we got talking and the CCM skates were the same size and he wanted to try them. First thing he said was the tower in the heel wasnt strong enough. He could feel the flex just trying it on. And when I went back the next day all 3 guys in the room in CCM said .... yah thats it.... I feel like it tourques on me. So the ones I put the Edge holders on and lined them straight are working pretty good. His team just won 11 straight games. So must be something to it?  (On his 2nd set of holders since the summer though). 

was elvis flexing the Speedblade?

[Kgbeast 195]

Speedblade and Tuuk have some torsion flex in them. If you grab a skate by front and back of the holder and give it a gutsy twist, you will see how it gives a little.  So yes, doing quads in those probably not optimal. But I suspect OP is not talking about that, I think he is talking about the Edge blade wiggle, which few have complained about.

[Jason 65]

 Sounds to me like he is saying that the 4.0's are softer and torque.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

On 12/28/2016 at 5:31 AM, Jason said:

 Sounds to me like he is saying that the 4.0's are softer and torque.

Yes they were the 4.0

[Jason 65]

I recently spoke to a person who works in a local store and takes care of fitting VH skates for the store. He said that he thought that the Speedblade holders were stiffer than the LS2 and LS Edge. He also said that he tried the VH/Step holder and that it was very stiff. Too stiff for him. He said it was harder for him to turn because of the lack of torque. I still feel like the Edge holders are stiffer than the LS2's which are probably a little stiffer than the SB4.0. I'm not sure about the VH/Step holder as I have never even seen it in person let alone skated on it.

[Kgbeast 195]

I have tried twisting SpeedBlade 4+ by hand and I can, vs NT3000 and Attack holder which I can not twist at all from the same grip and strength. I am not quite understanding how the flexier holder is "better" than the one that is not. Watching some reviewers on youtube talking about monocoque design, they  imply that when outsole is glued/stapled to the upper, it still have some movement between upper and outsole which results in energy transfer loss.... If we are talking about energy transfer losses, would not we want stiffer holder/blades combinations in addition to monocoque boot design.... Kind of like VH Skate with Step or Graf holder would be the least performance robing. At the end of the day right is right and better is better. No? 

[flip12 729]

I'm wondering why with skates, so much emphasis gets put on "the stiffer the better," yet with sticks, many more people are aware of the benefits of stick flex. I can see how the load a holder takes on a turn would affect the feel for the player using it, so you'd want a good match that provides a predictable effect from a certain angle and force. If it's a question of performance robbing, it's still a question of what feel the player expects from the holder, so it's again all personal preference and in that case, good to have some options so that it's possible to chose something other than the same plain white bread.

[kadayo 9]

I'm looking to transition out of t-blades for the first time in 16 years. What holder/steel would you guys recommend?

[Kgbeast 195]

On 1/21/2017 at 0:38 AM, flip12 said:

I'm wondering why with skates, so much emphasis gets put on "the stiffer the better," yet with sticks, many more people are aware of the benefits of stick flex. I can see how the load a holder takes on a turn would affect the feel for the player using it, so you'd want a good match that provides a predictable effect from a certain angle and force. If it's a question of performance robbing, it's still a question of what feel the player expects from the holder, so it's again all personal preference and in that case, good to have some options so that it's possible to chose something other than the same plain white bread.

With stick is about the accuracy of the shot not power transfer. Actually, stick with no flex and shot with no ice known to transfer the most energy and produce the fastest shots (pretty basic physics really). With skates, I would say it is about the power transfer... faster zero to top speed, tighter turns, shorter stops... etc. Even with stick, it is not about flex is beneficial, it is about flex in certain place is beneficial. Like flex in the blade of the stick is very bad. In skates, you want to have forward flex and ankle mobility for extended length of the stride. Flexible holders are more of a sloppy suspension on a car... adds unpredictability. Many would argue that NHL players seems to prefer flexible holders... That is true, but in my opinion, not driven by performance, but by tradition and less than perfect habits. Hence many go for the "same plain white bread" vs trying something new.

[flip12 729]

10 hours ago, Kgbeast said:

With stick is about the accuracy of the shot not power transfer. Actually, stick with no flex and shot with no ice known to transfer the most energy and produce the fastest shots (pretty basic physics really). With skates, I would say it is about the power transfer... faster zero to top speed, tighter turns, shorter stops... etc. Even with stick, it is not about flex is beneficial, it is about flex in certain place is beneficial. Like flex in the blade of the stick is very bad. In skates, you want to have forward flex and ankle mobility for extended length of the stride. Flexible holders are more of a sloppy suspension on a car... adds unpredictability. Many would argue that NHL players seems to prefer flexible holders... That is true, but in my opinion, not driven by performance, but by tradition and less than perfect habits. Hence many go for the "same plain white bread" vs trying something new.

The part in bold: exactly! This is what I'm hoping will be addressed with composite skate shells. They're great for many things, but not quite tuned to allow the right amount of flex.

I'm with you on the physics of the holders in theory. But how do we test things like 0-25 mph performance with different holders? As well as cornering performance. The drills are there, for sure, but would using a stiffer holder be beneficial universally? How much so? The "adds unpredictability" part seems to be subjective. I know you say that that's due to the legacy of holders being whippy in the past, but that would have to be better demonstrated rather than hypothesized to be a convincing argument.

I don't know squat about cars, so I can't entertain that analogy, unfortunately.

[Jason 65]

11 hours ago, Kgbeast said:

With stick is about the accuracy of the shot not power transfer. Actually, stick with no flex and shot with no ice known to transfer the most energy and produce the fastest shots (pretty basic physics really). With skates, I would say it is about the power transfer... faster zero to top speed, tighter turns, shorter stops... etc. Even with stick, it is not about flex is beneficial, it is about flex in certain place is beneficial. Like flex in the blade of the stick is very bad. In skates, you want to have forward flex and ankle mobility for extended length of the stride. Flexible holders are more of a sloppy suspension on a car... adds unpredictability. Many would argue that NHL players seems to prefer flexible holders... That is true, but in my opinion, not driven by performance, but by tradition and less than perfect habits. Hence many go for the "same plain white bread" vs trying something new.

I tend to agree with Kgbeast's line of thinking. Obvious some level of flex is important, but energy transfer is very important. You need to feel the ice and a stiff holder is generally better for that. It will also transfer your energy to the blade and ice faster. Sticks are a totally different situation. I myself use a 75 flex stick, so pretty soft. I love a stiff blade though and love my stiff skates.

[Kgbeast 195]

9 hours ago, flip12 said:

The part in bold: exactly! This is what I'm hoping will be addressed with composite skate shells. They're great for many things, but not quite tuned to allow the right amount of flex.

I'm with you on the physics of the holders in theory. But how do we test things like 0-25 mph performance with different holders? As well as cornering performance. The drills are there, for sure, but would using a stiffer holder be beneficial universally? How much so? The "adds unpredictability" part seems to be subjective. I know you say that that's due to the legacy of holders being whippy in the past, but that would have to be better demonstrated rather than hypothesized to be a convincing argument.

I don't know squat about cars, so I can't entertain that analogy, unfortunately.

You right, without an organized study, it would be impossible to figureout effects of stiffer boot and or stiffer holder, but physics is physics and my argument is purely scientific. As of right now, it seems that only Patrick Kane might have some opinion on this as he is the only one that have tried the same boot with Step holder and Edge holder in a number of actual NHL games. However, he is not sharing nor he is wearing Step holder anymore. Step Steel has not commented on this either to the best of my knowledge. Now, that is obviously can be easily outside of any performance gains or loses, it could come down purely to a pressure from Bauer or something of that sort. To my mind, him sporting  Step holders was a significant oversight by whomever holds his endorsement and most likely resulted in some disciplinary actions and uncomfortable conversations.     

[Larry54 243]

23 hours ago, Kgbeast said:

With stick is about the accuracy of the shot not power transfer. Actually, stick with no flex and shot with no ice known to transfer the most energy and produce the fastest shots (pretty basic physics really). With skates, I would say it is about the power transfer... faster zero to top speed, tighter turns, shorter stops... etc. Even with stick, it is not about flex is beneficial, it is about flex in certain place is beneficial. Like flex in the blade of the stick is very bad. In skates, you want to have forward flex and ankle mobility for extended length of the stride. Flexible holders are more of a sloppy suspension on a car... adds unpredictability. Many would argue that NHL players seems to prefer flexible holders... That is true, but in my opinion, not driven by performance, but by tradition and less than perfect habits. Hence many go for the "same plain white bread" vs trying something new.

On the other hand, even F1 cars made of composite chassis and bodies have suspensions to help with grip. You shouldn't assume that holder flexibility compares to a "sloppy" car suspension. It might have just the right amount of flex to add the right amount of grip. Looking at inline skates, this reminds me of how the Sprung chassis gave me better grip than a regular solid chassis, enough that I got as much grip even with slightly harder wheels.

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

You can't have a stiff boot AND a stiff holder.  

Mission learned that lesson a long time ago.  It's going to find the weakest point; the steel.

 

[caseyjones 26]

Maybe a stupid question, but how does a holder "flex" when it's  securely bolted to the bottom of a skate? You can flex a holder when it's in your hand, but can anyone flex a holder when it's fastened to a skate?

[Kgbeast 195]

1 minute ago, caseyjones said:

Maybe a stupid question, but how does a holder "flex" when it's  securely bolted to the bottom of a skate? You can flex a holder when it's in your hand, but can anyone flex a holder when it's fastened to a skate?

Yes you can flex the holder with steel in it while it is attached to the boot. . Lots of heavier guys feel it during hard crossover accelerations and other extreme activities. You can probably see that in slow motion if such acceleration is captured on fast camera. I personally a pretty big guy and I can twist the skate in my arms if I squeeze the boot between my legs and stomach while trying to torque the front and rear posts in opposite directions. Again, I am not saying that the flexy holders or floppy blade attachment methods are unacceptable, I am just questioning when people say that those things actually beneficial to skating or make it for a more natural feel. I am just saying that the more rigid the holder the more energy is transferred from your foot to the ice. Any flex in the holder will result in loss of energy and hence result in more effort needing to skate. It is also possible that flexy holders will "eat" the attack angle during hard turns and crossovers and can cause lose of edge and fall. 

[Kgbeast 195]

3 hours ago, Larry54 said:

On the other hand, even F1 cars made of composite chassis and bodies have suspensions to help with grip. You shouldn't assume that holder flexibility compares to a "sloppy" car suspension. It might have just the right amount of flex to add the right amount of grip. Looking at inline skates, this reminds me of how the Sprung chassis gave me better grip than a regular solid chassis, enough that I got as much grip even with slightly harder wheels.

Suspension in cars you are referring to is actually mimics the function of the ankles - no matter what the pavement doing or how your body is thrown around, the bottom of your shoe is flat on the ground....That is where the skate boot design comes in, not holder. It is your skill as a skater that keep the blades perpendicular to  the ice. In car analogy, this would be one of those new age computer controlled adaptive suspensions. Sloppy suspension I was referring two is the one that causes under-steer... Any F1 driver would be infuriated to the point of sudden death by that. I do not know anything about in-line skates, but I always thought that only some higher end rolelrblades have wheel suspension to go over bumps and cracks easier. 

[Larry54 243]

34 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

Suspension in cars you are referring to is actually mimics the function of the ankles - no matter what the pavement doing or how your body is thrown around, the bottom of your shoe is flat on the ground....That is where the skate boot design comes in, not holder. It is your skill as a skater that keep the blades perpendicular to  the ice. In car analogy, this would be one of those new age computer controlled adaptive suspensions. Sloppy suspension I was referring two is the one that causes under-steer... Any F1 driver would be infuriated to the point of sudden death by that. I do not know anything about in-line skates, but I always thought that only some higher end rolelrblades have wheel suspension to go over bumps and cracks easier. 

F1 cars do not use computer-controlled active suspensions because they are banned since the 90's, so I don't really see them as mimicking the skater's constant correction using his ankles. They are purely mechanical suspensions.

And if you're interested, here's the old thread on the Sprung Hockey chassis.