VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[calixguy18 8]

5 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

Yep, nothing weird about my feet at all. 

Well that's why they worked no problem for you. You have normal feet. My concern is, for example, I have high volume feet and usually skates bulge at the top of the tongue above the foot. In an average skate, no matter how thermoformable it is, there just isn't enough material on the sides (where the lace holes are) to properly wrap my foot. Nothing is going to really change that other than having the boot designed for higher volume from the beginning and having the material there (like a Nexus). This is where the thermoformability argument loses me. That's my understanding at least. 

5 hours ago, Miller55 said:

I don't agree that most people go to True because they can't fit retail. I looked into it before covid but just never got around to scheduling a scan. I fit retail Supremes very well. No pain, no pressure, no issues with durability, minimal negative space. I'm happy with them, but they could definitely be more comfortable. I heard Trues were very comfortable and I was interested. 

Obviously it is officially competing with Bauer and CCM, but in reality they are offering something very different. A skate that molds to wrap your foot like True (assuming it's like the mako or better) is not something that either Bauer out CCM offer. Also, offering a premium skate at 600$ is not something they do at all. 

Practically speaking, Bauer bought Easton, so if they see that the True retail sell, in theory they can always remake a mako type skate to complete with true retail since they own the tech.

Lot of good points made. I think a lot of us are going on the assumption that these retails will be as thermoformable as the customs and the Makos. I have very little doubt that that will be the case, but it is still an assumption.

I just wonder how stiff the TF7s will get after baking and if it will be comparable to a carbon boot. What are other fiberglass boots? Trying to recall if I ever used a pair

If you had no pain, no pressure, minimal negative space, and you're happy with them, wouldn't that make the skate comfortable? It's like when people say to give 110% effort. You can only give 100% effort...you can't give more than than the maximum. 

One could argue that CCM's second from the top AS3 skate at $629 is a "premium" skate. It does have a full 1 piece composite boot as well and claims to be very thermoformable. Would you guys consider this a premium skate or is there a big performance gap there?

Scott's IG video says "the functionality and thermoformability of the fiberglass is roughly the same as the tf9 except it's a lower cost and a little bit heavier" (6:30 mark). And that it's less stiff. Take it for what it's worth.

Edited July 18, 2020 by calixguy18

[althoma1 574]

2 hours ago, calixguy18 said:

Well that's why they worked no problem for you. You have normal feet. My concern is, for example, I have high volume feet and usually skates bulge at the top of the tongue above the foot. In an average skate, no matter how thermoformable it is, there just isn't enough material on the sides (where the lace holes are) to properly wrap my foot. Nothing is going to really change that other than having the boot designed for higher volume from the beginning and having the material there (like a Nexus). This is where the thermoformability argument loses me. That's my understanding at least. 

If you had no pain, no pressure, minimal negative space, and you're happy with them, wouldn't that make the skate comfortable? It's like when people say to give 110% effort. You can only give 100% effort...you can't give more than than the maximum. 

One could argue that CCM's second from the top AS3 skate at $629 is a "premium" skate. It does have a full 1 piece composite boot as well and claims to be very thermoformable. Would you guys consider this a premium skate or is there a big performance gap there?

Scott's IG video says "the functionality and thermoformability of the fiberglass is roughly the same as the tf9 except it's a lower cost and a little bit heavier" (6:30 mark). And that it's less stiff. Take it for what it's worth.

I would say the AS3 and FT490 are premium skates. They are one piece and would be responsive, but I don't think they would have as much wrap, be as moldable or have the zero negative space concept of Trues. I think of the CCM skates as more of a one piece traditional hockey boot akin to the old Easton Synergy skates, but with some moldabilty.  The True skates are speed skate inspired, super moldable and more like KOR and Mako, but with more stiffness.

I don't have an average foot. I would say my instep and heel is average, but my forefoot is very wide. So in a Nexus the forefoot would be good, but the heel was too wide and it was too deep. In other Bauer and CCM skates I could find skates with good heel lock and depth, but the forefoot and/or toe box would be too narrow.  Makos in EE locked in my heel, but gave my forefoot enough room after baking. So for someone with my issue of a regular heel, but very wide forefoot a highly moldable stock skate may work as long as the toe box isn't too narrow. The moldabilty may hot help someone like yourself with depth issues though. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by althoma1

[Sniper9 530]

10 hours ago, calixguy18 said:

Well that's why they worked no problem for you. You have normal feet. My concern is, for example, I have high volume feet and usually skates bulge at the top of the tongue above the foot. In an average skate, no matter how thermoformable it is, there just isn't enough material on the sides (where the lace holes are) to properly wrap my foot. Nothing is going to really change that other than having the boot designed for higher volume from the beginning and having the material there (like a Nexus). This is where the thermoformability argument loses me. That's my understanding at least. 

If you had no pain, no pressure, minimal negative space, and you're happy with them, wouldn't that make the skate comfortable? It's like when people say to give 110% effort. You can only give 100% effort...you can't give more than than the maximum. 

One could argue that CCM's second from the top AS3 skate at $629 is a "premium" skate. It does have a full 1 piece composite boot as well and claims to be very thermoformable. Would you guys consider this a premium skate or is there a big performance gap there?

Scott's IG video says "the functionality and thermoformability of the fiberglass is roughly the same as the tf9 except it's a lower cost and a little bit heavier" (6:30 mark). And that it's less stiff. Take it for what it's worth.

I think trues are able to fit ppl with foot shapes that arent "avg" to a degree. The moldability allows for a bit of flexibility in fit but obviously some people will just need custom boots. 

I fit into a supreme pretty well but there are some hot spots. Even with my one100 that I wore for 7-8 years, I had no pain skating, but when walking I had pinching above my ankle area. 

With my as1 it was super painful all over to break in. Once broken in they were ok but protection was non existent. I took light passes off the ankle that hurt like hell. I took a bomb from the pt off my trues and didn't miss a shift and I don't have the extra shot blockers. 

Vapor 2.9 I had to return. Overall fit felt ok but produced quite painful lacebite on the top of my forefoot from slight volume issues.

Trues are the only skates I didn't have any pain or break in period out of box. Yes mine are customs but I'm sure I would fit fine into retails. 

You are right though. The as3 and the second from the top jetspeeds are also top or the line skates.  They're essentially the previous years top skate. So if you look at it that way they're technically newer than trues which haven't changed tech wise except when they went to a diff carbon weave about 1.5 years ago. 

From my experience in terms of wrap and moldability. It's True (by a landslide), then CCM, and far down in third is Bauer. CCM gets soft really fast but I'm not sure if the materials are meant to get that soft since they recommend only to be baker for I think 3 mins. If done longer it does get pretty soft but since they recommend 3 mins, I'm sure it can't be good for the materials. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Sniper9

[Miller55 333]

On 7/17/2020 at 9:56 PM, calixguy18 said:

 

If you had no pain, no pressure, minimal negative space, and you're happy with them, wouldn't that make the skate comfortable? It's like when people say to give 110% effort. You can only give 100% effort...you can't give more than than the maximum. 

One could argue that CCM's second from the top AS3 skate at $629 is a "premium" skate. It does have a full 1 piece composite boot as well and claims to be very thermoformable. Would you guys consider this a premium skate?

Yes. They are fine in terms of comfort, but that doesn't mean there cannot be a more comfortable skate. Your analogy is not great imo. Everyone knows that there is 110% and even more to give.

Try on a 2s pro and try on a True boot. The fit that you get when a boot is super malleable is a very different feeling from a boot that fits well. Bauer do not mold very well. The baking helps take a bit of an edge of the break in, but it doesn't completely negate it. I ended up buying a pair of True pro returns recently and they are unreal. I'm honestly blown away. For a boot to be this comfortable without losing any stiffness is something that I haven't experienced in over 20 years of using high end skates. I had no issues wearing them without even baking them. I cannot say such a thing about another skate. There are definitely points on the boot that I can tell will change when I bake them because my feet are far from identical to rors, but they are still more comfortable than my old one100s that were like slippers by the time I retired them.

The as3 is definitely a premium skate. It's the as1. In my mind at least, the TF9 is supposed to be on par with the as3 pro. I think the TF7s are already in the class of a skate like the as3 or the 3s pro. I haven't actually seen them yet, but this is my assumption. 

[Sniper9 530]

20 hours ago, Miller55 said:

Yes. They are fine in terms of comfort, but that doesn't mean there cannot be a more comfortable skate. Your analogy is not great imo. Everyone knows that there is 110% and even more to give.

Try on a 2s pro and try on a True boot. The fit that you get when a boot is super malleable is a very different feeling from a boot that fits well. Bauer do not mold very well. The baking helps take a bit of an edge of the break in, but it doesn't completely negate it. I ended up buying a pair of True pro returns recently and they are unreal. I'm honestly blown away. For a boot to be this comfortable without losing any stiffness is something that I haven't experienced in over 20 years of using high end skates. I had no issues wearing them without even baking them. I cannot say such a thing about another skate. There are definitely points on the boot that I can tell will change when I bake them because my feet are far from identical to rors, but they are still more comfortable than my old one100s that were like slippers by the time I retired them.

The as3 is definitely a premium skate. It's the as1. In my mind at least, the TF9 is supposed to be on par with the as3 pro. I think the TF7s are already in the class of a skate like the as3 or the 3s pro. I haven't actually seen them yet, but this is my assumption. 

Go and bake them with the shrink wrap method. You're totally missing out!

[Miller55 333]

1 hour ago, Sniper9 said:

Go and bake them with the shrink wrap method. You're totally missing out!

Are you taking about the Bauers or true?

[Sniper9 530]

1 hour ago, Miller55 said:

Are you taking about the Bauers or true?

Ur trues. I thought u said you didn't bake the pro stock ones you have. 

[Miller55 333]

1 hour ago, Sniper9 said:

Ur trues. I thought u said you didn't bake the pro stock ones you have. 

Yeah they only came like 2 hours before I posted that last night. I just washed the dishes wearing them so obviously didn't bake them yet.

[Sniper9 530]

1 hour ago, Miller55 said:

Yeah they only came like 2 hours before I posted that last night. I just washed the dishes wearing them so obviously didn't bake them yet.

Well. It's not yesterday anymore 😊

[Miller55 333]

11 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

Well. It's not yesterday anymore 😊

Haha everything in time. My point is that even without a bake they were comfortable enough to do the dishes in. (My wife was so happy she didn't even make a snide comment about me buying another pair of skates 😉)

[dasuchin 20]

23 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Go and bake them with the shrink wrap method. You're totally missing out!

That reminds me, I probably need to do another bake. I got mine back in December and they didn't do the shrink wrap method. I've been using them 2-4 times a week since then, minus a month and a half or so when my rink was shutdown.

 

Can I bake these at home? Not sure what to throw them in the oven at.

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, dasuchin said:

That reminds me, I probably need to do another bake. I got mine back in December and they didn't do the shrink wrap method. I've been using them 2-4 times a week since then, minus a month and a half or so when my rink was shutdown.

 

Can I bake these at home? Not sure what to throw them in the oven at.

200 degree convection oven for 8-10 minutes. One at a time. 

[Sniper9 530]

3 hours ago, dasuchin said:

That reminds me, I probably need to do another bake. I got mine back in December and they didn't do the shrink wrap method. I've been using them 2-4 times a week since then, minus a month and a half or so when my rink was shutdown.

 

Can I bake these at home? Not sure what to throw them in the oven at.

Yup 180-200 5 mins a side for a total of ten in a convection is what I did. One skate at a time 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Sniper9

[Giltis 116]

One thing I think with the new TF7 coming out, it might obliterate the 2nd hand market for used Custom TRUEs.

[flip12 715]

New bake protocol is 5-6 mins. total (you could flip at 2.5-3 minutes). SVH discussed it in the Instagram Live from last week.

I’m super excited about my next skates. They’ll either be 7s or 9s but the TF line for price and features is insane. I’ve been skating in MLX boots and needed some time to figure out the ankle function that felt most natural, but they’re awesome in fit, performance, and protection and they’re also just built on a stock foot form.

Edited July 21, 2020 by flip12

[Miller55 333]

1 hour ago, Giltis said:

One thing I think with the new TF7 coming out, it might obliterate the 2nd hand market for used Custom TRUEs.

It's possible, but I doubt it honestly. A large portion of the second have market is pro returns, which are many times the same price as TF7s. I just got brand new pro returns for 400 total. In the US, TF7s will go for 330+tax. In NY that will end up being more than 350. I think True is just going to take a larger chunk of the market now

[Giltis 116]

3 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

It's possible, but I doubt it honestly. A large portion of the second have market is pro returns, which are many times the same price as TF7s. I just got brand new pro returns for 400 total. In the US, TF7s will go for 330+tax. In NY that will end up being more than 350. I think True is just going to take a larger chunk of the market now

Yeah I guess the main advantage would be that you would be able to try the TF7 before buying it as well as having the option of returning it or warrantying it should something go wrong.

[Sniper9 530]

51 minutes ago, flip12 said:

New bake protocol is 5-6 mins. total (you could flip at 2.5-3 minutes). SVH discussed it in the Instagram Live from last week.

I’m super excited about my next skates. They’ll either be 7s or 9s but the TF line for price and features is insane. I’ve been skating in MLX boots and needed some time to figure out the ankle function that felt most natural, but they’re awesome in fit, performance, and protection and they’re also just built on a stock foot form.

Interesting. 5-6 mins seems short esp for trues. Is this for customs too or the retails. You sure it wasn't for the tf7 only which isnt carbon

Edited July 21, 2020 by Sniper9

[Miller55 333]

5 minutes ago, Giltis said:

Yeah I guess the main advantage would be that you would be able to try the TF7 before buying it as well as having the option of returning it or warrantying it should something go wrong.

Right. You're definitely paying for the warranty. It's hard to really predict what will happen. Pro returns might cut into TF9 sales, but TF9 will probably cut into custom sales too. TF7s will probably dominate the market for younger players who are still growing. I have a friend who has purchased multiple pairs of used Trues from parents of teens who used True customs for less than a month before growing out of them. Those parents are going to love the TF7s

 

In essence, True is cutting somewhat into their own sales, but I don't think it will make much of a difference since they will also take some of the retail market from CCM and Bauer. Plus, I would imagine that even if the TF9 takes from customs, their margin is probably better on the TF9 anyway, and it might even decrease wait time for customs

Edited July 21, 2020 by Miller55

[Giltis 116]

I can tell you that a few of my friends who were on the fence about buying Trues in the past are going to jump at the lower end model. 

I'm probably going to get my oldest son a pair of TF7s, and keep them for when my youngest fit into before selling them to another hockey parent.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Giltis

[flip12 715]

2 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Interesting. 5-6 mins seems short esp for trues. Is this for customs too or the retails. You sure it wasn't for the tf7 only which isnt carbon

Good question. He says it's for the stock skate and not the custom skate. He's holding and demoing with the TF9 shell in that sequence, so it doesn't seem like the fibreglass/composite difference comes into it.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CCofN_xDATP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Question about how to bake starts at 25:27.

Edited July 21, 2020 by flip12

[flip12 715]

1 hour ago, Giltis said:

I can tell you that a few of my friends who were on the fence about buying Trues in the past are going to jump at the lower end model. 

I'm probably going to get my oldest son a pair of TF7s, and keep them for when my youngest fit into before selling them to another hockey parent.

I was just thinking that. I've been good at hunting Grafs from Germany, and some of the guys on my club want to try something other than Bauer or CCM. One wanted me to watch out for a pair for him. Now True's got a great skate for beer leaguers whose partners might balk at a summer vacation invested in a new pair of skates and I'll recommend TF7s instead of ancient Grafs for him in particular. This is considerably more palatable in every way.

Edited July 21, 2020 by flip12

[boo10 323]

In the past I've heard many complaints about the rivets (holder) coming loose and people having to constantly replace them.  Has this ever been addressed by True?  If not, I assume the issue would carry over to the TF7 and TF9?

[VegasHockey 1280]

34 minutes ago, boo10 said:

In the past I've heard many complaints about the rivets (holder) coming loose and people having to constantly replace them.  Has this ever been addressed by True?  If not, I assume the issue would carry over to the TF7 and TF9?

I think any boot with a full composite midsole or a monoframe/monocoque design the rivets will get lose over time as they aren't able to grip the composite.

That being said, I rarely see any issues with TRUE skate rivets if the customer airs out their gear properly. The only time I seen reoccurring rivet issues is when players use the red TRUE insoles with their standard footbeds and dont remove them when air dring their skate or if they use aftermarket insoles that tend to keep the moisture in the boot. We had one players who likes to use the Orthomove insoles in his TRUE skates and they tend to not allow boot to try out fully so he is always having rivet issues. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

Moving to the proper post. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by SkateWorksPNW