Outside edges question

[Leif 161]

I picked up new Bauer custom 2s Pro skates with LS5 blades on Wednesday, did one hour stick and puck, and one hour scrimmage Thursday evening, and one hour public skating this evening. Anyway, I have no outside edges and I’d like suggestions please. 

The ice on Thursday was very hard, so I was not surprised at the lack of grip. But this evening I’m sure it was not so hard. When I did forwards crossovers, CW or ACW, the leading foot slid sideways. When I did a tight turn, either direction, the leading foot slid sideways. When I did a forwards outside edge one foot hockey stop, the sliding was insane, no bite at all. I trust my sharpener 100%. She showed me the BAT gauge and it was perfect. I checked the edges this evening with my gauge, and the edges are perfect, front, middle and back. What is going on? 

If it helps, I am 5’11”, 11 stone 4 pounds, and the hollow is 1/2” which I’ve used for a year. I would describe my skating level as intermediate. 

I find it hard to believe the skates are at fault, the same fault on each is unlikely. The sharpening is spot on. So there must be a problem with my technique. Or do I need a deeper hollow to get grip? 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Leif

[stick9 890]

It's totally the sharpening. Sure they are level but did they do enough passes to cut a proper hollow... That's the question.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

2 hours ago, Leif said:

I picked up new Bauer custom 2s Pro skates with LS5 blades on Wednesday, did one hour stick and puck, and one hour scrimmage Thursday evening, and one hour public skating this evening. Anyway, I have no outside edges and I’d like suggestions please. 

The ice on Thursday was very hard, so I was not surprised at the lack of grip. But this evening I’m sure it was not so hard. When I did forwards crossovers, CW or ACW, the leading foot slid sideways. When I did a tight turn, either direction, the leading foot slid sideways. When I did a forwards outside edge one foot hockey stop, the sliding was insane, no bite at all. I trust my sharpener 100%. She showed me the BAT gauge and it was perfect. I checked the edges this evening with my gauge, and the edges are perfect, front, middle and back. What is going on? 

If it helps, I am 5’11”, 11 stone 4 pounds, and the hollow is 1/2” which I’ve used for a year. I would describe my skating level as intermediate. 

I find it hard to believe the skates are at fault, the same fault on each is unlikely. The sharpening is spot on. So there must be a problem with my technique. Or do I need a deeper hollow to get grip? 

What profile? And put a straight edge on the blade. I am betting the toe is pulled in so there is a gap from toe to heel in the middle on the inside of the blade. About a 65th to a 32nd of an inch. You take out all the rivets leaving in the heel coppers and you can see what holes were out of line when mounting. After that I cam help you get them str8 again. 

 

I have done 30 pairs of bauers in the last month. Mainly left skates.. 90% of them. 

[Vet88 674]

Hopefully it is just a blade issue. If not I have seen it caused by a change of boot and how that impacts on the way your foot / balance / alignment works in the skate. If this is the case there is no quick fix if you want to stay in them. If you were in my class I'd have you dropping eyelets and learning where the edge is without the help of the boot. Circle drills / figure 8's and focus on spending as long a time as you can on the outside edge, try to collapse the foot over the edge as you balance on it so you start to learn where the point of no return exists for you. Practice is key but if your practice is not pushing your edge control and getting you to learn where the edge is you will just keep making the same technical mistakes over and over. A deeper hollow is not the answer.

I can honestly say I have been in your position, my outside edge turning right in my G5's, 0ne100's and other skates was not the greatest but when I swapped to apx2's it was ok. Circumstances forced me to go lace free which is when I realised how poor my edges actually were. Now I have really deep edges regardless of what skates I put on including my G5's and One100's.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Vet88

[CigarScott 132]

Are you noticing if you are pronating in the skates? If you are, would explain why you can't get an outside edge.

[Leif 161]

Thanks all. 

I checked the edges and for sure the full width has been sharpened which suggests that she took enough metal off to get a full grind. I placed them upright on a granite hearth, and I see an obvious curvature consistent with 10 feet. Oddly my old skate blades are flat except at the very ends! They look like goalie skate blades. They are well worn Step steels and hand sharpening has evidently destroyed the profile. 

These skates do not seem to lock in my heels as much as the previous ones. I will try tightening the laces more, though they are stiff boots, so not sure that will do much. And I will try looser lacing. 

My edge control in my old skates is good, several hockey coaches have watched me do forwards cross rolls, and given a thumbs up. I get a good lean while holding the non skating foot out, and crossed over the skating leg. Sure I can’t do them really tight as per Sean Walker on YouTube. Similarly I could ride both edges while tight turning, in other words I could feel the outside edge on the leading skate. And when doing crossovers I was riding the edges, with my legs crossed over lots, friend commented on good edge control. Unless I am deluded I do have edge control with my old skates. 

I’m erring towards a technique issue, perhaps due to having gradually got used to flat blades. I will swap out the blades, and see how the old ones do, that will at least eliminate one variable. 

[mojo122 535]

You can have both an inside and outside edge, but if the runners are not square you can have issues (depending on how far off they are).  I'd take them back and have them check them, particularly for levelness.  If all is good then get a good 10-12 hours of skating on them since there's always going to be an adjustment period when breaking in new skates.

[Leif 161]

Following suggestions here, I went down to the rink today and I put on the old blades and my outside edges were pretty much back to normal. So I put the new blades back on and did lots of outside edge drills, focussing on the angle of the blade to the ice, and my outside edge control is coming back. I reckon I got used to flat worn down blades without realising it.

It makes me wonder what other people’s runners are like after multiple sharpenings. I was chatting to a friend recently and he commented that his blades had only had a few grinds, and yet the profile had changed lots. 

[Leif 161]

10 hours ago, CigarScott said:

Are you noticing if you are pronating in the skates? If you are, would explain why you can't get an outside edge.

I think there was an element of pronation, not realising I had to readapt to new blades, and get rid of the pronation. Also I made sure I tightened the laces lots, the injected lacing mechanism makes it a bit harder to tighten laces. 

[Leif 161]

And another question ... 

My skates have a very good heel lock, the length is right and the width at the toes is good. However, they are very loose at the top of the boot, around my leg. Is this normal?

I have thin legs (and arms) for my height and build, although there is quite a bit of muscle on the legs, just not at the lower ends. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Leif

[chippa13 1844]

New boots may feel looser at the top eyelets since they haven't softened over time yet. If heel lock is good and you've got a good mold to your foot then this shouldn't be a problem for skating. It may just feel weird when standing/walking around in your skates as your old boots probably wrapped a lot more at the top eyelets.

[Leif 161]

Thanks, yes it feels a bit weird, beautiful skates though. 

[clarkiestooth 235]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:31 PM, Leif said:

And another question ... 

My skates have a very good heel lock, the length is right and the width at the toes is good. However, they are very loose at the top of the boot, around my leg. Is this normal?

I have thin legs (and arms) for my height and build, although there is quite a bit of muscle on the legs, just not at the lower ends. 

 

Yes, that's normal. Modern skates are so stiff and come up so high that you need that bit of room so your leg/ankle can flex forward properly. I wear Supreme 1S so I understand what you're talking about.  Sorry about your thin arms and legs, but you can work on that.

 

[Leif 161]

5 minutes ago, clarkiestooth said:

 

Yes, that's normal. Modern skates are so stiff and come up so high that you need that bit of room so your leg/ankle can flex forward properly. I wear Supreme 1S so I understand what you're talking about.  Sorry about your thin arms and legs, but you can work on that.

 

Thanks. It's the bones that are thin, and I can't change that. 🙂 I've discovered that I have to tighten the skate laces a lot to draw the fabric around my feet for a snug fit, but the skate is always loose around the bottom of my leg, and that gives me flexibility as you say. It's a very different kind of skate from my previous ones. 

[clarkiestooth 235]

4 minutes ago, Leif said:

Thanks. It's the bones that are thin, and I can't change that. 🙂 I've discovered that I have to tighten the skate laces a lot to draw the fabric around my feet for a snug fit, but the skate is always loose around the bottom of my leg, and that gives me flexibility as you say. It's a very different kind of skate from my previous ones. 

Yes, exactly. That's the way it should be. Flex is super important for everything you do in skating. I would say the better the skater, the more they flex the skate forward. 

[Leif 161]

I noticed that from outside each rear copper rivet at the back of the skate looks like a copper washer place over a piece of straight copper bar that protrudes 4 mm or so. Am I right to think that the ends should have been squashed against the copper washer, and hence this is a manufacturing flaw? That is what I see online, and on my old skates. I'm sure I can get the LHS to sort this out as they re-rivet and replace holders, it is a bit odd though. And should this be rectified ASAP given that if I am right, the rivets have little strength/grip? 

Added: I sent an email to the LHS and Mark emailed back a picture of a good copper rivet on a custom skate that looks like mine. Apparently in the Far East they tend to really flatten copper rivets, but not in Europe and North America. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Leif

[strosedefence34 175]

9 hours ago, Leif said:

I noticed that from outside each rear copper rivet at the back of the skate looks like a copper washer place over a piece of straight copper bar that protrudes 4 mm or so. Am I right to think that the ends should have been squashed against the copper washer, and hence this is a manufacturing flaw? That is what I see online, and on my old skates. I'm sure I can get the LHS to sort this out as they re-rivet and replace holders, it is a bit odd though. And should this be rectified ASAP given that if I am right, the rivets have little strength/grip? 

Added: I sent an email to the LHS and Mark emailed back a picture of a good copper rivet on a custom skate that looks like mine. Apparently in the Far East they tend to really flatten copper rivets, but not in Europe and North America. 

Have any pictures?

[chippa13 1844]

Coppers tend to have a knob instead of being flat and flush against the outsole.

[Leif 161]

Hopefully this will work:

 

[strosedefence34 175]

@Leif The picture is fine.  The copper looks good to me.  That's how they come from my LHS when they are replaced.  Looks hand done opposed to a machine.

Edited December 4, 2018 by strosedefence34

[Leif 161]

Thanks. I've not seen a hand done rivet before. Out of interest, have you any idea where the non custom high end Bauer skates (2s Pro, 1x, 1n) are made? 

[strosedefence34 175]

5 minutes ago, Leif said:

Thanks. I've not seen a hand done rivet before. Out of interest, have you any idea where the non custom high end Bauer skates (2s Pro, 1x, 1n) are made? 

No, I have no clue.  I am sure someone knows.

[stick9 890]

19 hours ago, Leif said:

Thanks. I've not seen a hand done rivet before. Out of interest, have you any idea where the non custom high end Bauer skates (2s Pro, 1x, 1n) are made? 

China

[strosedefence34 175]

20 hours ago, Leif said:

Thanks. I've not seen a hand done rivet before. Out of interest, have you any idea where the non custom high end Bauer skates (2s Pro, 1x, 1n) are made? 

 

1 hour ago, stick9 said:

China

I checked the tag on my 190s from the MX3 error and it said made in Thailand.  I wonder if they changed since then or maybe the top of the line skates are made in a different factory. 

[JC225 6]

Hey Leif,

If I may and speaking from past experience with this issue myself, it sounds like to me you are not really getting out on those outside edges. The sliding of your inside foot is very good indicator that your are trying to make the turns by turning that inside foot in the direction you want to go (causing the slide) instead of actually using the outside edge itself.

Now the question becomes, why is this happening?

Could it be the new stiffer boot, blades? Or is it your experience and comfort level in using those outside edges?

Again and this is only my opinion but I don't believe the 1/2 hollow has anything to do with it. I run Step Steel blacks with a 5/8 hollow on my Bauer 1X's and they have more than enough bite on any type of directional changes I employ providing I use the edges correctly. It really sounds like you just need to spend a bit more time working those outside edges and trusting yourself to use them. It can take a minute to really gain the confidence to lean onto those outside edges so keep at it.

To answer your other question, when I first started, I used a 7/16 which had a huge amount of bite but it really helped me develop the confidence to use my edges because they really dug into the ice and that made me feel more stable. I found myself confident enough to lean further and further out on the edges with each skate because of that stable feeling. As I got more comfortable, I began to back off and went from  a 7/16 to 1/2 and now the 5/8 and it's great.

All the best.