Superfeet, Stock insoles / Lie,Pitch, Balance Point

[Above40 7]

I have given Superfeet (both yellow and carbon) a good testing over the last 6 months or so and they don't seem to be an upgrade for me. I originally started using them due to arch pain in new skates and having a semi low arch, combined with a wider forefoot. Just trying out footbeds to deal with general issues with fit. To summarize why I think they aren't working for me, it basically feels like I am skating on my arches and find it difficult to get my weight on the balls of my feet. It (feels like) it takes too much ankle flex to get into a position where i can use the front half of my blade when maneuvering. Heels and apex of radius are readily accessible.  I'll admit, some of this might be technique (being back into the sport after a long many ears away) but I've had enough skates in to where I want to perhaps try something else.

I'd like to know if anyone can chime in regarding balance point and the possibility of moving the radius apex fwd/back might help feeling better balanced over my skates. When I drop two eyelets I can flex my ankles enough to get things feeling ok but I lose a lot of lateral stability and my upper ankles start knocking around in the top opening (Tippiness). If I tighten them down and really lock my ankle in, things get much worse and Im basically skating on my heels or getting sever lace bite pressure when trying to get balanced/neutral. Im in newer Tacks model 9070. Stock radius on aftermarket hyperglildes.

I've experimented with shimming under heel and forefoot (within the boot) trying to slightly change my foot position inside the boot but doesn't really seem to help that much. Walking around the house it seems it feels slightly more natural when i use the stock footbed (pretty thin) with a second layer of stock footbed under my forefoot (slightly less than half).

 

Would moving the balance point /apex back a little ways  help me get over the balls of my feet easier? Essentially is this the same as getting a fwd pitch or is there a difference? My intuition might be wrong but I don't think shaving down the toe of the skate is going to help...all else being equal wouldn't that make matters worse? (Front of blade would be even further out of reach if balance point of blade on boot remained the same?) I'm thinking something like an 11' radius but just slightly moved back... .I'm relatively new to all this. Forgive me if I sound like a dope.

If anyone can see a clearer picture of what might help me...I'm all ears. Thanks

 

[hockeydad3 51]

Do your skates have the correct size and fit? I had similar problems with skates beeing too big. You could search for skate-sizing-guides.

[shoot_the_goalie 281]

There's so many different things that could be coming into play with what you're asking.  I'll leave comments on profiling, adjusting holder pitch, etc. to other people on the boards who know much more than me about those things.

In regards to Superfeet, I've been a big believer in them, as I've used them in both skates and shoes/sneakers. (I no longer used them in skates now having Trues though).  The important thing to note is that Superfeet are not arch support insoles; rather they are heel stabilizers, that align your heel and adjust accordingly.  This could be why you're having issues with them.  Depending on your anatomy, Superfeet can actually have a negative effect (though in most instances positive effects are achieved).  You might be better served with an insole specifically for arch support like Speeplates or the new CCM Orthomoves.

[caveman27 208]

Call up the people at no icing sports https://www.noicingsports.com/

Changing profile and/or pitch may help as it pertains to getting rid of the feeling of being on your heels. OEM blades may have a negative pitch out of the box. It won't fix your footbed/low arch issues. That is to say, re-profiling may help you get better balance and agility, but you'll still have arch pain while skating.

[Above40 7]

59 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

Do your skates have the correct size and fit? I had similar problems with skates beeing too big. You could search for skate-sizing-guides. 

------------------------------------------

I didn't start in the correct size but I definitely am now. As far as fit.. it was a lesser of evils proposition. relatively slim heel/ankle , with a big foot print. wide forefoot med-high volume. I haven't had a Graf or Easton skate on my foot but between Bauer and CCM I believe I am in the best fitting retail skate available. I am curious about a heavily punched ribcor in ee.. but i don't think it has the volume for me though.

2 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

Call up the people at no icing sports https://www.noicingsports.com/

Changing profile and/or pitch may help as it pertains to getting rid of the feeling of being on your heels. OEM blades may have a negative pitch out of the box. It won't fix your footbed/low arch issues. That is to say, re-profiling may help you get better balance and agility, but you'll still have arch pain while skating.

I've read up on their site and offerings. They sure sound like they know what they are doing, but I'd like to understand also what might help and why, rather than take a recommendation blindly. . I'd prefer to have some reference before I invest in the process and go down that road.

[caveman27 208]

29 minutes ago, Above40 said:

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I've read up on their site and offerings. They sure sound like they know what they are doing, but I'd like to understand also what might help and why, rather than take a recommendation blindly. . I'd prefer to have some reference before I invest in the process and go down that road.

So, I sent my skate blades to them because there's no one local to re-profile. There's a questionnaire you fill out and send to them if you are interested in a combination radius, and they give you a recommendation based on your answers. The recommendation includes pitch, ROH, what radius' to use in the front and back part of the blade (and middle if you are going for triple radius or quad radius job.) It's kind of costly to get a combination radius done, but its reversible. Or, maybe you want a single radius but you want to make it shorter or longer than stock. They do that too. Or maybe you just want a different pitch, same profile and ROH, they do that too. Everything is explained on their website.

You don't even have to ask them for advice if you know what you want. Just order a profiling service and enter in the values for profile, pitch, ROH that you know you want. That's what I do. I wasn't happy with the combination radius and went to a single 8' radius. It cost me to change the radius, but it worked out.  

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by caveman27

[hockeydad3 51]

Did you try a very thin cheap insole without any anatomical support (for normal shoes) as rivet covers, or even without any insole? 

Maybe the anatomical fit of the boot has not the shape of your feet. Did you heat mold your skate?

[start_today 770]

On 10/4/2019 at 5:36 PM, caveman27 said:

So, I sent my skate blades to them because there's no one local to re-profile. There's a questionnaire you fill out and send to them if you are interested in a combination radius, and they give you a recommendation based on your answers. The recommendation includes pitch, ROH, what radius' to use in the front and back part of the blade (and middle if you are going for triple radius or quad radius job.) It's kind of costly to get a combination radius done, but its reversible. Or, maybe you want a single radius but you want to make it shorter or longer than stock. They do that too. Or maybe you just want a different pitch, same profile and ROH, they do that too. Everything is explained on their website.

You don't even have to ask them for advice if you know what you want. Just order a profiling service and enter in the values for profile, pitch, ROH that you know you want. That's what I do. I wasn't happy with the combination radius and went to a single 8' radius. It cost me to change the radius, but it worked out.  

 

You do all that,  and then he recommends a “custom “radius of 8’/13’, w/ fbv closest to whatever sharpening you’re currently getting. 

[caveman27 208]

35 minutes ago, start_today said:

You do all that,  and then he recommends a “custom “radius of 8’/13’, w/ fbv closest to whatever sharpening you’re currently getting. 

Well, unless you've dealt with them in the past, they why are you speculating what they will do?

[puckpilot 312]

I got new skates about 3 years ago. Here's the story of my trials and tribulations with insoles and profiling. Maybe it'll help you out. 

When I got my new skates, I got talked into buying superfeet carbon. They worked well enough and the soles of my feet were comfortable, so I kept them. As I got used to my new skates, I noticed, I was on the tips of my toes too much and my general stability was off. These are issues I've had in the past because I'm a 175lb dude with small feet, and figured, because I moved down half a size from a 5 to 4.5 skate, and thus was using an even smaller runner, I'd just need to do some work to get things re-calibrated. So, I worked and worked and worked on get it all sorted out by working my skating more.

Well, after about 6 months with little to no progress, I decided to look at other options. I did my research and decided to get a flatter profile. Went to a 12' profile with a +1 pitch. Instant positive results. As time went on, I moved to a 13' profile and then to a neutral pitch. Things got progressively better with each change, but there were times where I'd get on my toes still. So I did some more research and re-familiarized myself on what pitching actually does.

Pitching your skate with a forward lean involves moving the balance point of the skate along with the profile edge back towards the heel. This makes it easier to get onto your toes. Good for some, not good for me, so I went and got a negative pitch to my skate, which moved the balance point and profile edge forward towards my toes more, which put me on my heels more. Some things you read will say this is not recommended, but for me, it was another positive step. Unfortunately, moving the profile edge forward lessened the stability in my heels, which wasn't terrible, but I wanted to get things perfect. On that same day that I took the negative pitched profile runners out for their first test, I was taking my insoles out after and realized the superfeet carbon had a raised heel, which would put me up on my toes more.

The next time I was on the ice for stick and puck, I went to the stock insoles, which I'd never used in these skates and noticed an immediate change for the better. Not only did the superfeet pitch me forward, which wasn't right for me, it also deadened the feel for my edges. Using superfeet for me was like putting mittens on and trying to type. The stock insoles weren't as comfortable, but they didn't hurt my feet either, so I stuck with them. During that stick and puck session, I swapped between a 13' neutral pitched steel and my 13' negative pitched steel to get a feel for what i liked. I thought I'd be going back to a neutral pitch, but as it turns out, I still liked the negative pitch more. But there was still the issue with stability in the heel area.

So I went to the shop and asked if they could maybe give me a 14' or 15' profile. Well, they couldn't because they didn't have the profiling template. Nobody asks for something so out of the box. As fortune would have it I'd seen a video on Elias Petterson talking about tweaking his profile at that time. He was using a Detroit II profile, which is a 13'/26' dual profile that some goalies use. So, with nothing left to try and nothing to lose, I gave it a go, a Detroit II profile with a -1 pitch, and after one stick and puck session and one game with it, I can definitely say it was another right step for me. Probably some room to tweak some more, but definitely not going back.

In addition, going to the flatter profiles made it so I felt comfortable enough to practice with completely loose laces during stick and puck and skate with looser laces during games, preventing me from getting lacebite, which is another long story in itself, so Ill leave that be. 

Maybe there's something useful in here for you in this very loooong post. Maybe not. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by puckpilot

[Above40 7]

Puckpilot, thank you for taking the time to get that all out because it's just those sort of "stories" that seem to help the most. Cause/effect. Appreciate it, plenty to draw from even if I'm having sort of the opposite issue. Valuable stuff. Only thing that went over my head a little is that special dual radius you mentioned. the 13/26.. SO if I'm looking at that correctly you needed the front of your skate darn near flat (26')? Indeed pretty outside the box.. Whatever works! Glad you had a few breakthroughs. Can be so frustrating at times.

[puckpilot 312]

4 hours ago, Above40 said:

Puckpilot, thank you for taking the time to get that all out because it's just those sort of "stories" that seem to help the most. Cause/effect. Appreciate it, plenty to draw from even if I'm having sort of the opposite issue. Valuable stuff. Only thing that went over my head a little is that special dual radius you mentioned. the 13/26.. SO if I'm looking at that correctly you needed the front of your skate darn near flat (26')? Indeed pretty outside the box.. Whatever works! Glad you had a few breakthroughs. Can be so frustrating at times.

The front  is a 13’ radius and the back is 26’ 😛  

[218hockey 50]

On 10/6/2019 at 6:24 PM, puckpilot said:

"

Quote

 

I went to the stock insoles, which I'd never used in these skates and noticed an immediate change for the better. Not only did the superfeet pitch me forward, which wasn't right for me, it also deadened the feel for my edges. Using superfeet for me was like putting mittens on and trying to type."

 

 

 

Is that a thing? People don't like Superfeet because they lose feel?

Edited October 14, 2019 by 218hockey

[puckpilot 312]

6 hours ago, 218hockey said:

Is that a thing? People don't like Superfeet because they lose feel?

It's not about like or dislike. It's more about pros and cons. Superfeet tend to get promoted as this universally great thing, but there is no free lunch. The are pros and cons that have to be weighed against each other for each individual. Superfeet get sold to people like myself who really don't need them, so without needing the pros, I'm left with only receiving the cons.

Superfeet are great for those who's feet need them, but for those that don't, for the most part, they're better of not using them at all. It's like wearing a knee brace when there's nothing wrong with your knee.

Edited October 14, 2019 by puckpilot

[z1ggy 81]

On 10/13/2019 at 8:15 PM, 218hockey said:

Is that a thing? People don't like Superfeet because they lose feel?

I can say there might be some truth to this. I used SF for YEARS and now I just use regular EVA foam in my True's. It's hard to describe but now I can literally feel the blade under my foot and where it is at all times, the first thing I thought when I skated without SF was wow, I'm "hyperaware" of my runner and where my edges are. I think the firm bottom on the SF which it might help align your foot better or provide arch support, it does kind of "mute" that feel.

 

Also for guys like me with pretty low arch, the newest iteration of the hockey insole from SF was a little more firm and a touch higher in the arch than the OG yellow. Gave me foot pain almost right away. My old Yellows had cracked so I was SOL. I eventually ended up using the stock insole in the FT2 before I went to True. I felt that it was adequate and nothing better nor worse than SF.

[Giltis 116]

1 hour ago, z1ggy said:

I can say there might be some truth to this. I used SF for YEARS and now I just use regular EVA foam in my True's. It's hard to describe but now I can literally feel the blade under my foot and where it is at all times, the first thing I thought when I skated without SF was wow, I'm "hyperaware" of my runner and where my edges are. I think the firm bottom on the SF which it might help align your foot better or provide arch support, it does kind of "mute" that feel.

 

Also for guys like me with pretty low arch, the newest iteration of the hockey insole from SF was a little more firm and a touch higher in the arch than the OG yellow. Gave me foot pain almost right away. My old Yellows had cracked so I was SOL. I eventually ended up using the stock insole in the FT2 before I went to True. I felt that it was adequate and nothing better nor worse than SF.

Same for me, I don't mind SuperFeet in my Outdoor skates, but otherwise, it's the stock Trues or Grafs SIDAS footbeds for me. I also have a pretty low/collapsed arch.

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, z1ggy said:

I can say there might be some truth to this. I used SF for YEARS and now I just use regular EVA foam in my True's. It's hard to describe but now I can literally feel the blade under my foot and where it is at all times, the first thing I thought when I skated without SF was wow, I'm "hyperaware" of my runner and where my edges are. I think the firm bottom on the SF which it might help align your foot better or provide arch support, it does kind of "mute" that feel.

Also for guys like me with pretty low arch, the newest iteration of the hockey insole from SF was a little more firm and a touch higher in the arch than the OG yellow. Gave me foot pain almost right away. My old Yellows had cracked so I was SOL. I eventually ended up using the stock insole in the FT2 before I went to True. I felt that it was adequate and nothing better nor worse than SF.

I feel the same, SF and other thick insoles deaded the feel too much for me. For me, its the absolutely thinnest insole that provides enough support that I usually stick with. RIght now I have been bouncing back and forth between TRUE factory insoles (with grip added) and SpeedPlate 2.0 insoles which I have modified . The factory SpeedPlate insoles were too thick for my liking so I took them to the bench sander and ground them down substantially. 

[z1ggy 81]

1 hour ago, Giltis said:

Same for me, I don't mind SuperFeet in my Outdoor skates, but otherwise, it's the stock Trues or Grafs SIDAS footbeds for me. I also have a pretty low/collapsed arch.

What's nice about True is the arch is built into my skate so I don't need a footbed with support. With a flat outsole kind of skate (basically....every skate other than true) I needed some kind of arch support or else my foot would collapse a bit. I'm very happy with the thin foam footbed and I really think it's probably the main advantage of having True's. The bottom of my foot feels maximum connection to the holder and runner.

[Leif 161]

On 10/14/2019 at 1:15 AM, 218hockey said:

Is that a thing? People don't like Superfeet because they lose feel?

I thought they stabilised my heels as said earlier but they also raised up my heels which I hated. So I tried speedplates and loved them. They too stabilise the heel, but with less lift, and the arches are thermoformable. I’ve started skipping the top eyelet. The skates feels less precise but I get more knee bend.