Tydan Blades to cease wholesale sales

[VegasHockey 1284]

  On 3/9/2021 at 5:02 PM, Miller55 said:

I would have assumed that a large portion of those swaps to XS holders you're talking about were for the express prepare of using step. I'm sure some are using other steel, but I would expect most to use step...?

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Correct, many players that are unwilling to change their use of STEP. If a player wants to to have holders changed at time of purchase I only charge them for the hardware and no labor costs. 

[mtn 20]

At what point do Bauer, CCM, and True just start manufacturing Step/Tydan/Byonic quality or better themselves and put them in every skate from the $200 price point up? Take away the benefit of going to aftermarket steel, and nobody will do it. 

 

Obviously CCM has already done this with their purchase of Step. But this isn't some special magic, it is just better quality steel. It cannot be that hard, or that much of an incremental increase in price to implement, can it? 

 

No dog in this fight. I've been happy in stock Graf for 16+ years (and CCM for 1 year); never saw the point to changing, especially as I don't sharpen my skates more than 2-3 times a season.

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

Doesn't seem cost effective for them to do so. At least that's how I see it. I don't think most skaters really care about runners like we do on MSH.

[stick9 901]

  On 3/9/2021 at 4:53 PM, PBH said:

I think they are fine since they have their own separate patents. Bladetech is likely safe as well. 

That being said, I am doing more LS Edge holder to CCM XS holder swaps lately.

I wish/hope that CCM does not go the same route as Bauer, but they might, buying STEP was a significant cost and I am sure they are going to want to see a return on investment. 

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Haven't they already gone down that path? Bauer defended their patent to get customers to buy Bauer steel. Ccm bought a very highly regarded steel manufacturer to get customers to either buy their skates or swap out their holders for a ccm.

FWIW, what ccm did was a bit more douchy than Bauer. CCM's play was a total c**k block.

[mtn 20]

  On 3/9/2021 at 5:59 PM, stick9 said:

 

FWIW, what ccm did was a bit more douchy than Bauer. CCM's play was a total c**k block.

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How so? Bauer is telling Bridgestone and Michelin you can't make tires for our cars. CCM is just buying Bridgestone and then not making tires for other cars anymore.

 

Apt analogy? I haven't been following close enough. 

[mtn 20]

  On 3/9/2021 at 5:53 PM, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

Doesn't seem cost effective for them to do so. At least that's how I see it. I don't think most skaters really care about runners like we do on MSH.

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The fact that they're taking legal action has me think otherwise... If it was a small enough threat, why would they really care?

[VegasHockey 1284]

  On 3/9/2021 at 6:02 PM, mtn said:

The fact that they're taking legal action has me think otherwise... If it was a small enough threat, why would they really care?

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I think they are looking at the total addressable market. If a customer wants to only use a specific steel brand, let's say STEP, they might be more willing to give CCM a second look where as previously they would stick with what they are used to using. 

  On 3/9/2021 at 6:01 PM, mtn said:

How so? Bauer is telling Bridgestone and Michelin you can't make tires for our cars. CCM is just buying Bridgestone and then not making tires for other cars anymore.

Apt analogy? I haven't been following close enough. 

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I agree with you. 

  On 3/9/2021 at 5:53 PM, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

Doesn't seem cost effective for them to do so. At least that's how I see it. I don't think most skaters really care about runners like we do on MSH.

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You are correct. I would say 90% of parents and players don't really care or know the difference between high and poor quality steel and just use whatever comes with the skates. I skate with players of all ages and levels, its usually lower level older players that actually care about these things more than the elite level or younger players. 

[Miller55 335]

Very true. I know some juniors players that are very into step, but more to do with the cost effectiveness of holding edges than performance. Most of the best players I know don't really care, they're too busy playing to worry about it. 

[psulion22 402]

I'm willing to bet there are more people that don't know what hollow they're using than ones that care about the steel on their skates.  They buy the skates, have someone sharpen them with the "regular" sharpening, and don't even think about the steel again until the person sharpening them says they need new steel.

But that's why Bauer and CCM care.  I'm guessing there's a high profit margin in replacement steel, especially the mid range stuff (it's made from cheaper materials with less processing and larger tolerances but not discounted as much as the cost savings).  When that person who doesn't know anything about their steel has to buy new runners, and the guy in the pro shop says he has this other brand that's the same price as the cheaper Bauer steel but is better quality and will need less sharpenings, the clueless person buys it.  "I don't have to have them sharpened as often?  Great, I'll take it!"  But when you try to sell them on the Pulse Ti with the coatings and the benefits, their eyes glaze over and they just want the "regular stuff".

So it doesn't really make sense for Bauer to buy Step or Tydan or improve their own steel to that point.  Most people don't want to pay for it.  People are buying $300 skates, they don't want to pay for $130 runners or an extra $25 to improve what the cheap skates come with.  More people just want the cheaper stuff and get sold on other brands without knowing it.

[stick9 901]

  On 3/9/2021 at 6:01 PM, mtn said:

How so? Bauer is telling Bridgestone and Michelin you can't make tires for our cars. CCM is just buying Bridgestone and then not making tires for other cars anymore.

 

Apt analogy? I haven't been following close enough. 

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No, Bauer is telling Bridgestone and Michelin to stop making tires that violate their parents. There is a major difference. It's their IP and they have every right to defend it.

I don't know why people seem to gloss over that.

Furthermore, Step knew they were violating Bauer's patents which is why they wouldn't sell Step edge in the US and their steel was stamped Not for sale in the US.

Edited March 9, 2021 by stick9

[VegasHockey 1284]

  On 3/9/2021 at 8:07 PM, stick9 said:

Furthermore, Step knew they were violating Bauer's patents which is why they wouldn't sell Step edge in the US and their steel was stamped Not for sale in the US.

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Bingo. 

[Miller55 335]

  On 3/9/2021 at 8:07 PM, stick9 said:

No, Bauer is telling Bridgestone and Michelin to stop making tires that violate their parents. There is a major difference. It's their IP and they have every right to defend it.

I don't know why people seem to gloss over that.

Furthermore, Step knew they were violating Bauer's patents which is why they wouldn't sell Step edge in the US and their steel was stamped Not for sale in the US.

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I'm not super familiar with patent law. I'm actually not familiar at all. If it is a US patent, does it only apply in the US and not outside? If so, I don't see how they violated the patent. If it applies only in the US and they sold outside the states, they did nothing wrong. The only misdeed is on the folks who brought step steel into the US to sell. 

 

And if blade tech and flare are able to get around the patent by having their own IP then I don't see why step couldn't just do the same thing...?

[BenBreeg 493]

  On 3/9/2021 at 8:48 PM, Miller55 said:

I'm not super familiar with patent law. I'm actually not familiar at all. If it is a US patent, does it only apply in the US and not outside? If so, I don't see how they violated the patent. If it applies only in the US and they sold outside the states, they did nothing wrong. The only misdeed is on the folks who brought step steel into the US to sell. 

 

And if blade tech and flare are able to get around the patent by having their own IP then I don't see why step couldn't just do the same thing...?

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If you come up with IP, and get a patent, that doesn't mean that patent can't be challenged if it infringes.  They can't review every single patent against infringement at the time of filing.

[Miller55 335]

  On 3/9/2021 at 10:18 PM, BenBreeg said:

If you come up with IP, and get a patent, that doesn't mean that patent can't be challenged if it infringes.  They can't review every single patent against infringement at the time of filing.

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Gotcha. But in the case of step selling outside of the US, shouldn't that loophole keep them out of trouble with Bauer?

[BenBreeg 493]

  On 3/9/2021 at 10:56 PM, Miller55 said:

Gotcha. But in the case of step selling outside of the US, shouldn't that loophole keep them out of trouble with Bauer?

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Patents would be contested in whatever court has jurisdiction.  Some countries have agreements so that you don’t have to file in a hundreds of countries.  I do not know all the details of those arrangements, pretty much limited to what I know from some of my experiences with patent stuff with work.

This is one of the big gripes the US has with China and some other places whose governments don’t enforce IP.  We used to have people knocking off disposable parts of medical devices.  They were so efficient they would occasionally get shut down and pop back up within weeks.

[VegasHockey 1284]

  On 3/9/2021 at 11:58 PM, BenBreeg said:

Patents would be contested in whatever court has jurisdiction.  Some countries have agreements so that you don’t have to file in a hundreds of countries.  I do not know all the details of those arrangements, pretty much limited to what I know from some of my experiences with patent stuff with work.

This is one of the big gripes the US has with China and some other places whose governments don’t enforce IP.  We used to have people knocking off disposable parts of medical devices.  They were so efficient they would occasionally get shut down and pop back up within weeks.

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Canada and the US tend to respect one another's patents even though legally there is a grey area there.

That being said, if you are in North America it's a terrible decision to infringe on parents and not to expect to be sued.

In many parts of Asia you can get away with it.

Europe, depends on the country. Eastern Europe you are probably fine but Western Europe you are likely going to be in some trouble. 

[218hockey 50]

  On 3/9/2021 at 2:53 PM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Time to go to Byonic. Can't close them down. Sharpens the closest to Step in my opinion.  

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Byonic? Sure, another unicorn like the Massive Blade I finally gave up trying to find. 🦄

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

  On 3/10/2021 at 8:54 AM, 218hockey said:

Byonic? Sure, another unicorn like the Massive Blade I finally gave up trying to find. 🦄

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Hes been around for a while. Ibhad a ton of Step still do so I haven't bought anything else. It really sharpens well. 

I didn't like massive actually. 

[VegasHockey 1284]

  On 3/10/2021 at 8:54 AM, 218hockey said:

Byonic? Sure, another unicorn like the Massive Blade I finally gave up trying to find. 🦄

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It growing in popularity. Especially with the new steel that fits in both CCM and Bauer holders. 

  On 3/10/2021 at 1:36 PM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Hes been around for a while. Ibhad a ton of Step still do so I haven't bought anything else. It really sharpens well. 

I didn't like massive actually. 

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Massive steel was too hard. 

I agree, Byonic sharpens nicely. 

[stick9 901]

  On 3/9/2021 at 8:48 PM, Miller55 said:

And if blade tech and flare are able to get around the patent by having their own IP then I don't see why step couldn't just do the same thing...?

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My guess, Step didn't want to be different than Bauer, they wanted to offer a better quality option. Which makes sense. Less development time and resources and easier adoption from users since it's a drop in.

[VegasHockey 1284]

  On 3/10/2021 at 4:33 PM, stick9 said:

My guess, Step didn't want to be different than Bauer, they wanted to offer a better quality option. Which makes sense. Less development time and resources and easier adoption from users since it's a drop in.

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STEP is pretty much the same product design, especially once Bauer started making the LS3/4 steel since the LS2 was so short.

[mojo122 538]

I'm curious as to what CCM's long term plan is for STEP?  STEP doesn't come in any retail skate currently and my guess is that they probably have large inventories of their retail steel, which IMO is some of the worst steel out there.  To be fair Bauer's stainless and LS1 is crappy too.

As previously commented the majority of customers only care that there's steel on their skates.  

[VegasHockey 1284]

  On 3/10/2021 at 5:16 PM, mojo122 said:

I'm curious as to what CCM's long term plan is for STEP?  STEP doesn't come in any retail skate currently and my guess is that they probably have large inventories of their retail steel, which IMO is some of the worst steel out there.  To be fair Bauer's stainless and LS1 is crappy too.

As previously commented the majority of customers only care that there's steel on their skates.  

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STEP will come on the FT4 Pro skate, RIbcor 100k, and on all custom skates. I am sure the AS line will have STEP on its next iteration.

Also once CCM blows through a majority of their inventory I assume STEP will come on the top two-tier skate models, STEP DLC and STEP stainless. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by PBH

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

I have 5 sets of new unopened steel from STEP.  After I get to those and wear them out I am going to retire from hockey.

[218hockey 50]

  On 3/10/2021 at 4:31 PM, PBH said:

It growing in popularity. Especially with the new steel that fits in both CCM and Bauer holders. 

Massive steel was too hard. 

I agree, Byonic sharpens nicely. 

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That's great, but where would a guy buy it? Some of this product is so obscure. Why doesn't Pure Hockey or Ice Warehouse stock them?

I can go down to the local hardware store and buy CCM or Bauer.

Edited March 12, 2021 by 218hockey