Fun Parents!

[BenBreeg 493]

So over the past 30 years or so I've coached HS and Legion baseball, Little League baseball and softball, gradeschool volleyball, youth soccer, and HS, ACHA, and youth hockey.  I've really never had (luckily) any parent problems.  In fact, one of the great things about coaching ACHA was that the parents were very distant. 

This year I am coaching my son's in-house team.  Pretty mundane, big group practices, skill based, and a game each week.  I spend most of the time on the bench trying to help them understand positioning, which we don't do in practice.  I basically pick one or two things to focus on over the course of a few weeks and we emphasize that, I think it's too much for kids to try to transfer a million things form a whiteboard to the ice.

I have 11 kids on the team, we do 1:30 shifts and change on the horn.  I have played with different things like trying to roll kids through the lineup, playing multiple positions per game, different lineups per period, etc.  I found that it is way too chaotic.  Kids don't know the basics of one position, much less switching around throughout the game, the wrong kids are on the ice because things are changing each shift, etc.

So the last two games I just ran two lines and 2 right wings who rotate through.  I keep track of who is in the group of 3 and change those kids each game to be fair, it will all even out over the course of a bunch of games.  Way easier on the bench, allows me to focus on the game and helping kids if needed (sometimes I have the bench alone).

Yesterday some dad asks to talk to me and opens by saying he doesn't like how I managed ice time.  His son got 4 fewer shifts than other kids, etc.  I showed him the list I keep of kids who do the 3-man rotation so I can even it out.  He keeps going to the, "I know you're a volunteer and I appreciate blah blah..."  He then suggests that I could use a rover and put that kid in every position once and that would minimize each kid sitting, etc.  He is right, mathematically it would be more even per game, but it is a huge PITA to manage.  He went on and on but it isn't worth typing TBH.

I was civil, but glad we had masks on, I may have betrayed my WTF is happening face.

I am sure he will buy a stopwatch when his kid gets older...

[Giltis 116]

I've had the same experience unfortunately.

It's really young youth hockey (U8), and I had a dad come up to the bench where they are not allowed and ask why his son isn't getting on the ice. I had to explain to him that he got a penalty for slashing a kid on purpose after getting knocked down, at his level we just sit them out for 2 shifts, but it could have been the whole game if the ref deemed it.

I had another mom come up to the bench, and ask why his kid kept on getting double shifted, he's tired etc. I had to explain to her that everyone's double shifting because we have one sub.

I've had someone argue with me about the format that Hockey Canada was putting out "half ice vs whole ice" (which is definitely not my call lol). 

And on the other hand, I've had parents who didn't give a care, I always have to help this one kid (U8) in the locker room (tying his skates and all), and escort him to his dad who's waiting in the truck in the parking lot (who doesn't even get out of his truck to help his kid load the gear, nor even acknowledge me).

This half-year with COVID I think was the last straw, it brought out the worse in everyone. I've had way too many parents come up to me and yell at me for things that are beyond my control, I'll probably quit next year.

[krisdrum 233]

Not surprised, but it is disheartening to hear regardless.

I've helped out and worked the bench, but am by no means "coaching" my son.  So this is my take as a parent.  A lot of parents these days are CRAZY, Type-A, helicopter, win at all costs, my kid should never struggle or face adversity, aggressive MFers.  That has included me a few times over the last 6 years of him playing. 

The best thing I've seen is coaches who call a parent meeting and lay all this stuff out ahead of the season really getting rolling or if you can't do that, create a code of conduct document everyone needs to sign and return to you that outlines things.

A few best practices I've seen that could help are:

Wait a minimum of 24 hours after a thought crosses your mind before discussing it.  Gives the offended party time to reflect and be calm when discussing.

Discussing ice time is off-limits.  The coaches philosophy on the subject is... and the desired outcome is equal playing time over the course of the season, not game to game.  Or if you are in a more competitive situation... you have to earn your ice time based on the following criteria...

I think getting all this stuff out of the way up front can solve a lot of issues that pop up throughout the season.  It may not avoid them all, but at least it will give folks food for thought before they pull you aside steamed up about some perceived injustice.  The only place I see things needing to be immediately address is if there is a safety concern. 

[Giltis 116]

[...]

Edited January 26, 2021 by Giltis

[BenBreeg 493]

Yeah, those are all good thoughts.  I do send a beginning of the year email but given this is frigging in-house and I started the year with 10 skaters ice time wasn’t even on my mind.  I just basically say the goal is to have fun and improve, i do mention keeping it in perspective but stupidly give them the benefit of the doubt they aren’t idiots so I don’t push too hard on that.  My mistake.

[krisdrum 233]

43 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

Yeah, those are all good thoughts.  I do send a beginning of the year email but given this is frigging in-house and I started the year with 10 skaters ice time wasn’t even on my mind.  I just basically say the goal is to have fun and improve, i do mention keeping it in perspective but stupidly give them the benefit of the doubt they aren’t idiots so I don’t push too hard on that.  My mistake.

I am learning there are crazies everywhere!  My kid plays AAA, but since we just moved last year and have been isolating, we thought it would be good for him to meet some of the town rec kids and play some games if his schedule allowed, help them out if they are short players, whatever and make some connections.  Go have some fun and get some extra ice time.  He played a few games with them recently and hockey parents are hockey parents, regardless of the level.  There are the ones that get it and the ones that don't.    

[marka 526]

Howdy,

On 1/25/2021 at 9:28 AM, BenBreeg said:

Yesterday some dad asks to talk to me and opens by saying he doesn't like how I managed ice time.  His son got 4 fewer shifts than other kids, etc.  I showed him the list I keep of kids who do the 3-man rotation so I can even it out.  He keeps going to the, "I know you're a volunteer and I appreciate blah blah..."  He then suggests that I could use a rover and put that kid in every position once and that would minimize each kid sitting, etc.  He is right, mathematically it would be more even per game, but it is a huge PITA to manage.  He went on and on but it isn't worth typing TBH.

I was civil, but glad we had masks on, I may have betrayed my WTF is happening face.

I am sure he will buy a stopwatch when his kid gets older...

 

Bench his kid next game and tell the kid that if he wants to play that he needs to control his parent.

🙂

Seriously... When a parent comes with a suggestion / complaint, evaluate what they're saying.  If there's nothing new there, stand your ground.  Do what you did and explain civilly what the plan is, that the ice time will all even out in the end, etc.  If the parent keeps pushing, get your commissioner involved.

Sorry you're going through it.  Sounds like you're already doing everything right and I'm sure the positive thoughts and appreciation from the other parents greatly outnumber the squeaky wheel, even if they don't communicate it as effectively!

Mark

[marka 526]

Howdy,

17 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Yeah, those are all good thoughts.  I do send a beginning of the year email but given this is frigging in-house and I started the year with 10 skaters ice time wasn’t even on my mind.  I just basically say the goal is to have fun and improve, i do mention keeping it in perspective but stupidly give them the benefit of the doubt they aren’t idiots so I don’t push too hard on that.  My mistake.

There's nothing wrong with coach to parent communication during the season.  You can do it in a non-asshole way like "Hey, so one parent asked me about how ice time was working and <insert lots of your first post>".  Presumably the bulk of the rest of the parents aren't assholes, so an explanation like that gets them on your side and when jackass parent says something to another parent in the stands, that other parent can say "Oh, didn't you get the ice time email?  I thought that was a nice balance and a good way to approach it".

Mark

[chippa13 1844]

Running 1 extra thru the lines isn't hard. He goes thru a shift at each spot on the first line then each spot on the second line then sits. That means every 7 shifts each kid sits one shift. Then you just rotate who the extra kid is each game.

[krisdrum 233]

2 hours ago, marka said:

Presumably the bulk of the rest of the parents aren't assholes, so an explanation like that gets them on your side and when jackass parent says something to another parent in the stands, that other parent can say "Oh, didn't you get the ice time email?  I thought that was a nice balance and a good way to approach it".

Mark

 A bit harsh?  I guess it depends on your definition of those two things.  In my mind, most parents these days are going to push for their kid.  Granted there is a fine line between advocacy and lunacy.  It is an easy trap to fall into.  I'm assuming this isn't a "seasoned" hockey parent, so can understand getting caught up in it and not being chill.  I've been there, I would guess a lot of us have.  If you haven't, you are a much better person than me.  This is why I think clear expectations and guidelines are important.  It sets boundaries and models the behavior that will and won't be tolerated.  It gives everyone the same starting point.  Mark - I do agree expectations can be set at any time within the season.  I like the idea of an email "I've been getting some questions, so I'd like to share my philosophy with everyone..." because I have to assume for all the vocal parents there has to be at least a few more silent ones thinking the same thing.  The email will allow you to level set and move on.    

[BenBreeg 493]

4 hours ago, chippa13 said:

Running 1 extra thru the lines isn't hard. He goes thru a shift at each spot on the first line then each spot on the second line then sits. That means every 7 shifts each kid sits one shift. Then you just rotate who the extra kid is each game.

Yep, works out that way, and did something similar before as I mentioned.  Too much time spent dealing with that vs. focusing on the kids and the game.  This simplified things.

[Miller55 333]

My boys are 3, 2 and 10 months... Note to self, no coaching for me. I have zero patience for this stuff. My dad coached my siblings and I in baseball and basketball all the years (my sister has an acc championship ring for basketball) and he put up with so much with other parents and I appreciate it. Hope that by the time my kids are up to this I'll have grown up a bit, but this doesn't sound encouraging

[BenBreeg 493]

Last year my son showed my wife one of those funny “how to be a hockey parent” videos on YouTube.  We went to a little Christmas tournament and immediately after she was like, “that video was supposed to be a joke but half the parents in the stands were acting exactly like that!”

@Miller55 Yeah, coaching can be a pain, but I do it for two reasons.  One, I love teaching kids and seeing them improve.  At this level I get really excited when a player who used to just throw the puck settles a bit and makes one pass.  
 

Two, and unfortunately, I would rather coach my son than take a chance he gets a bad coach (plusses and minuses to coaching your own kid)  Even today there are guys who don’t get it.  I saw a U10 house little league coach reaming his team after they beat us because the score wasn’t worse (it was like 12-2).  Sunday before our game I ran into a buddy whose son plays on some grade school team and he was telling my how the coach throws a trash can on the ice for the kids to throw up in and screams and berates them (SafeSport anyone?).  These guys think this is just a step on their path to the big leagues.

[marka 526]

Howdy,

23 hours ago, krisdrum said:

 A bit harsh?  I guess it depends on your definition of those two things.  In my mind, most parents these days are going to push for their kid.  Granted there is a fine line between advocacy and lunacy.  It is an easy trap to fall into.  I'm assuming this isn't a "seasoned" hockey parent, so can understand getting caught up in it and not being chill.  I've been there, I would guess a lot of us have.  If you haven't, you are a much better person than me.  This is why I think clear expectations and guidelines are important.  It sets boundaries and models the behavior that will and won't be tolerated.  It gives everyone the same starting point.  Mark - I do agree expectations can be set at any time within the season.  I like the idea of an email "I've been getting some questions, so I'd like to share my philosophy with everyone..." because I have to assume for all the vocal parents there has to be at least a few more silent ones thinking the same thing.  The email will allow you to level set and move on.    

I think I'm a little more old school.  And probably just older.  🙂

I don't think a parent's role in sports should be to advocate for their kid.  Full stop.  They should encourage their kid, cheer when they do stuff well, boo the ref when they make a correct call that happens to be against their team, etc.

But in terms of "Hey coach, little Timmy should <blah>, <blah>, <blah>"... Just no.  Their interaction, particularly for a purely volunteer coach, should be limited to "Thanks!" with a side of "Hey, seems like maybe you could use a hand.... How can I help?"

If a program is bad enough that you feel like you need to volunteer criticism as a parent then you should be offering ways _you_ can fix it or be figuring out how to move on from that program.  And that focus should be the _program_ and how the kids are generally being handled, not whether YOUR kid's special snowflake needs are getting met.

I expect we agree more than we disagree btw... We're probably just stating it in different ways.

Happily, when I've coached my son's teams (mostly soccer, a little hockey before he stopped), most parents have either been overtly supportive or at least haven't been noisy about problems they've had.  I think its important for people that are considering coaching to read about issues like this as the exception, rather than the rule.  I mean, you certainly need to have a little thicker skin at times and be reasonably self confident, but generally speaking my experience with parents has been a positive one and they've been clearly glad that I was willing to volunteer to coach.

Mark

Edited January 27, 2021 by marka

[BenBreeg 493]

I think I may combine what I have been doing with Chippa's suggestion.  Instead of running 3 wings or centers the whole game, I can use 3 right wings in pd 1, move the extra kid and run 3 centers in pd 2, move him and run 3 left wings in pd 3.  Should be a good compromise without too much confusion, provides the same consistency at least within the period for positions.  It spreads out the shift skipping.  Then maybe I can run 5 D one game and that should be the season.  We'll see.

 

 

[krisdrum 233]

35 minutes ago, marka said:

Howdy,

I think I'm a little more old school.  And probably just older.  🙂

I don't think a parent's role in sports should be to advocate for their kid.  Full stop.  They should encourage their kid, cheer when they do stuff well, boo the ref when they make a correct call that happens to be against their team, etc.

But in terms of "Hey coach, little Timmy should <blah>, <blah>, <blah>"... Just no.  Their interaction, particularly for a purely volunteer coach, should be limited to "Thanks!" with a side of "Hey, seems like maybe you could use a hand.... How can I help?"

If a program is bad enough that you feel like you need to volunteer criticism as a parent then you should be offering ways to fix it or be figuring out how to move on from that program.  And that focus should be the _program_ and how the kids are generally being handled, not whether YOUR kid's special snowflake needs are getting met.

I expect we agree more than we disagree btw... We're probably just stating it in different ways.

Happily, when I've coached my son's teams (mostly Soccer, a little hockey before he stopped), most parents have either been overtly supportive or at least have been noisy about problems they've had.  I think its important for people that are considering coaching to read about issues like this as the exception, rather than the rule.  I mean, you certainly need to have a little thicker skin at times and be reasonably self confident, but generally speaking my experience with parents has been a positive one and they've been clearly glad that I was willing to volunteer to coach.

Mark

Fair.  And I do think we are agreeing more than disagreeing.  And I've come to my current state of being after some past mistakes.  I didn't grow up in this sport, or organized team sports in general and I've now had the benefit of 6 or so years of watching others, stumbling in my own right a few times and realizing the error of my ways to get me to a better place.  The parent in question with the OP may still be early in that journey.  

Agree - discussing playing time or similar subjects with a coach shouldn't happen.  That is definitely stepping over the line, especially to your point if you are only complaining and not offering potential solutions. 

OP - I say stand your ground.  I see a response where you are considering a change to your approach.  I've had the privilege of opening the door for our team a number of times, so can understand in some small part, trying to manage an entire game.  Assess the validity of the complaint, but if you end us coming to the conclusion that your current way is better for the overall effectiveness of the team and yourself, don't feel pressured to change.  

[BenBreeg 493]

2 hours ago, krisdrum said:

OP - I say stand your ground.  I see a response where you are considering a change to your approach.  I've had the privilege of opening the door for our team a number of times, so can understand in some small part, trying to manage an entire game.  Assess the validity of the complaint, but if you end us coming to the conclusion that your current way is better for the overall effectiveness of the team and yourself, don't feel pressured to change.  

I have been thinking about it, and despite the delivery, there is some validity to his point.  I made changes to try to find a better solution throughout the season and I’m not going to be stubborn just because of the source.  I’ll give it a try Sunday and see how it works.

[Blissy 1]

On 1/27/2021 at 5:35 PM, BenBreeg said:

I have been thinking about it, and despite the delivery, there is some validity to his point.  I made changes to try to find a better solution throughout the season and I’m not going to be stubborn just because of the source.  I’ll give it a try Sunday and see how it works.

I think that's a great idea.  Often, we have egos that prevent us from seeing that sometimes suggestions are an honest attempt to help, regardless of how they come across.  

Are you the only one on the bench?  If so, I certainly understand how trying to divide up the shifts, and watch the kids so that you can coach them all by yourself means that one or the other aspect will suffer.  I've been there too!  Would it be possible to approach this parent and say something like, "I thought about your idea and liked it, but with it just being me on the bench, it's difficult to implement that and still be able to watch the kids to see what areas they need help with.  So I was wondering if you'd be willing to get your safe-sport certification, and be on the bench during games to help run the line-changes?"  

Lots of upside to this--the guy will see that it's not an easy task; he'll also feel important because you took his suggestion and are using him on the bench.  And he may decide he wants to get more certification and become a contributor to the hockey community.  Anyway, good luck going forward!

[BenBreeg 493]

9 minutes ago, Blissy said:

I think that's a great idea.  Often, we have egos that prevent us from seeing that sometimes suggestions are an honest attempt to help, regardless of how they come across.  

Are you the only one on the bench?  If so, I certainly understand how trying to divide up the shifts, and watch the kids so that you can coach them all by yourself means that one or the other aspect will suffer.  I've been there too!  Would it be possible to approach this parent and say something like, "I thought about your idea and liked it, but with it just being me on the bench, it's difficult to implement that and still be able to watch the kids to see what areas they need help with.  So I was wondering if you'd be willing to get your safe-sport certification, and be on the bench during games to help run the line-changes?"  

Lots of upside to this--the guy will see that it's not an easy task; he'll also feel important because you took his suggestion and are using him on the bench.  And he may decide he wants to get more certification and become a contributor to the hockey community.  Anyway, good luck going forward!

Yeah, I am the only coach for this team.  Sometimes the org that runs the program will have someone who jumps on the bench to help.  At this point in the season i am not sure there would be time.  We are required to have USA Hockey coaching cert, the age group module, State Police, Child Abuse, SafeSport, and I think one other background type thing and they definitely track it.  But it might be a good suggestion heading into next year.  Maybe I just put it in an e-mail.  Many parents may not know there is an opportunity to get involved since they don't skate/play.

[BenBreeg 493]

Mini update.  Got on the ice for practice today (in-house, big group, many coaches) and one of the guys in charge calls me over. He had walked by during my parent discussion but didn’t have time to stop.  He asked me what happened and I told him and he said he figured and had mentioned it to the other guy who runs things.  At the end he just said he wanted me to know that they have all the coaches’ backs.  Nice to know.

[clarkiestooth 235]

20 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Mini update.  Got on the ice for practice today (in-house, big group, many coaches) and one of the guys in charge calls me over. He had walked by during my parent discussion but didn’t have time to stop.  He asked me what happened and I told him and he said he figured and had mentioned it to the other guy who runs things.  At the end he just said he wanted me to know that they have all the coaches’ backs.  Nice to know.

 

Firstly, good job on the 30 years of voluntary coaching and your reasons for doing it.  My background is I'm a skills instructor with a group from Sweden that works with NHL/KHL/SHL and elite youth players, on down to younger kids and now even adults (if anyone wants info, PM me).  I coach in Sweden in the summer,  set up the camps in the US and do private skills coaching here in Florida.  I think one thing to learn from your situation is one of the basics: How does it look from the stands?  Whether its running a practice or bench coaching, you must always ask yourself how it looks from the spectator (or parent) point of view.  If you do that, your presentation is better, and it will keep you out of potential conflicts/miscommunications many times over. In this case, the visual of rotating the extra player through is a better solution. 

 

 

 

[caveman27 208]

On 1/25/2021 at 9:28 AM, BenBreeg said:

So over the past 30 years or so I've coached HS and Legion baseball, Little League baseball and softball, gradeschool volleyball, youth soccer, and HS, ACHA, and youth hockey.  I've really never had (luckily) any parent problems.  In fact, one of the great things about coaching ACHA was that the parents were very distant. 

This year I am coaching my son's in-house team.  Pretty mundane, big group practices, skill based, and a game each week.  I spend most of the time on the bench trying to help them understand positioning, which we don't do in practice.  I basically pick one or two things to focus on over the course of a few weeks and we emphasize that, I think it's too much for kids to try to transfer a million things form a whiteboard to the ice.

I have 11 kids on the team, we do 1:30 shifts and change on the horn.  I have played with different things like trying to roll kids through the lineup, playing multiple positions per game, different lineups per period, etc.  I found that it is way too chaotic.  Kids don't know the basics of one position, much less switching around throughout the game, the wrong kids are on the ice because things are changing each shift, etc.

So the last two games I just ran two lines and 2 right wings who rotate through.  I keep track of who is in the group of 3 and change those kids each game to be fair, it will all even out over the course of a bunch of games.  Way easier on the bench, allows me to focus on the game and helping kids if needed (sometimes I have the bench alone).

Yesterday some dad asks to talk to me and opens by saying he doesn't like how I managed ice time.  His son got 4 fewer shifts than other kids, etc.  I showed him the list I keep of kids who do the 3-man rotation so I can even it out.  He keeps going to the, "I know you're a volunteer and I appreciate blah blah..."  He then suggests that I could use a rover and put that kid in every position once and that would minimize each kid sitting, etc.  He is right, mathematically it would be more even per game, but it is a huge PITA to manage.  He went on and on but it isn't worth typing TBH.

I was civil, but glad we had masks on, I may have betrayed my WTF is happening face.

I am sure he will buy a stopwatch when his kid gets older...

Weird number roster happens often in beer league games.

Not sure how it would work with kids hockey and your horn system. But like with 11 players, we would put 3 guys on a position that would rotate faster, and not necessarily with their line, like center or one of the wingers. If everyone is hustling, we usually get exhausted enough to where we want to get off sooner than later. I know with kids, if you didn't have your horn, they would play the whole game.

[BenBreeg 493]

2 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

Weird number roster happens often in beer league games.

Not sure how it would work with kids hockey and your horn system. But like with 11 players, we would put 3 guys on a position that would rotate faster, and not necessarily with their line, like center or one of the wingers. If everyone is hustling, we usually get exhausted enough to where we want to get off sooner than later. I know with kids, if you didn't have your horn, they would play the whole game.

Yeah, I was running 3 kids in a given position but we change every 1:30 on the horn, so can't rotate faster through.  

[caveman27 208]

7 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

Yeah, I was running 3 kids in a given position but we change every 1:30 on the horn, so can't rotate faster through.  

You're doing the right thing.

Keeping a player in one position through the game is good. Changing zone and position responsibility is too much to handle for young players. You get lost players or two guys mentally playing the same position on the same shift and the other team can take advantage of openings.

[SolarWind 23]

On 1/29/2021 at 7:55 AM, BenBreeg said:

Yeah, I am the only coach for this team.  

"With great power comes great responsibility" 😉
Kidding aside personally I think it's a Great position to be in, since you get to plan & execute the season according to your vision of how the team should progress. There is an unlimited number of things to work on in hockey from technical skills through individual tactics to team strategies, and it requires a methodical approach which takes time to see results from.
What I find more difficult is the situation when parents, that never played the game and can barely skate, volunteer to coach not necessarily because they want to help, but to live vicariously through their kids. The game surely looks different from the stance than when you're eating the glass in the corner, so this oversimplified view doesn't translate well to coaching. Some things are just hard because they are, and players need time to break skills down and learn to apply them in a game under pressure. But to an un-initiated it would certainly look very frustrating since it's so "simple" - at least from where they sit...