Switching from CCM skates to Bauer - instep height

[JV23 12]

My son is currently in a Tacks 9380 size 1D.  Length is good, though he could go to a 1.5 with growing room.  Width doesn’t seem to be a problem either.  Where he’s having an issue is that is instep is so high that it is bulging out past the eyelets, which is forcing a change.  He measures as a Vapor EE on the Bauer scanner, but the LHSs near me don’t have any 1 or 1.5EEs in stock for me to try, and while phoning around, a couple of people said that if a Tacks was too shallow, the Vapors would be as well and I should go for Supremes.  
 

I don’t mind driving around to find boots to try on him, but wondering if any of the experts on the board have any views.  I know the Supreme foot shape is different from the Vapor as well…so there are a lot of variables at play.

thanks in advance.

[mojo122 535]

31 minutes ago, JV23 said:

My son is currently in a Tacks 9380 size 1D.  Length is good, though he could go to a 1.5 with growing room.  Width doesn’t seem to be a problem either.  Where he’s having an issue is that is instep is so high that it is bulging out past the eyelets, which is forcing a change.  He measures as a Vapor EE on the Bauer scanner, but the LHSs near me don’t have any 1 or 1.5EEs in stock for me to try, and while phoning around, a couple of people said that if a Tacks was too shallow, the Vapors would be as well and I should go for Supremes.  
 

I don’t mind driving around to find boots to try on him, but wondering if any of the experts on the board have any views.  I know the Supreme foot shape is different from the Vapor as well…so there are a lot of variables at play.

thanks in advance.

Followup question? Is he having pain or is just that he's pushing up over the eyelets? Although I like the Bauer scanner and it provides a good starting place for skate fitting I see EE recommendations for those who don't need to be in a EE,  Your comment that length and width aren't an issue leads me to believe (without seeing the scan) that he's more of an E width and D width Tacks and Supremes are fine.

[JV23 12]

I need to be really careful tying the skates or he complains (a lot) about pain at the top.  If I go super loose then tighten at the three eyelets down, he’s fine.  Also wondering is his foot safe like that?  
 

As another data point, he has access to a pair of size 2E last gen Missions…would they be Supreme-fit?

[Vet88 674]

10 hours ago, JV23 said:

I need to be really careful tying the skates or he complains (a lot) about pain at the top.  If I go super loose then tighten at the three eyelets down, he’s fine.  Also wondering is his foot safe like that?  

It depends on his level. If he is just beginning and doesn't do a lot of one footed power stops or other similar skills then tying loose at the top is perfectly fine. In fact you can do him the the greatest favour you could ever give him for skating, start dropping eyelets. Don't lace and tie the top one, then after a couple of months like this don't lace and tie the top two. Then repeat for the top 3. Eventually you would like him to get 4 or 5 eyelets down and then you just don't tie his laces (thread the eyelets required but you leave the laces untied). Over time he will learn to use his muscles to control the skate blade and not use the boot as a crutch. This teaches him how to skate properly balanced over the skate blade, I can't stress enough how important this is as it is the foundation to be a great skater. And he will never complain about pain at the top.

Kids learn fast, this is the age when you want him to develop good habits.

The only caveat I add here is he is growing, Putting him in skates that are 2 or 3 sizes too big for him isn't going to help him regardless if you lace him up or not. 1/2 a size is fine, maybe even 1 size too long as long as the width isn't too bad but a boot that wobbles all over the foot is extremely hard to learn to skate in.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Vet88

[BenBreeg 493]

I think trying skates on is the only avenue, but as others have said, is it really a problem?  If he is bulging out the top of a Tacks, I don't know that any other line is going to be better.  
 

I have a “tall” instep I guess, where I have a med to narrow foot (with a wider forefoot/toes) and I am above the eyelets in the middle of the lacing pattern in Ribcores.  No big deal.  I would rather have it fit in the rest of the skate.  I only lace snug.  If you cranked there you would have issues.

[JV23 12]

@Vet88. He’s going into Minor Peewee playing AA in a strong hockey center (big pool of players to draw from).  Skating has always been a strength on his evals with his coaches and private coaches, but I take the point very well that he doesn’t know everything and good technique takes years with good specialized coaching to develop. He’s nearing the end of the 1’s (a couple of millimeters max on the footbed), and I always go half sizes to avoid boot slop.  My comment on lacing methodology was really to avoid what I have been interpreting as lace bite over that instep, then one eyelet to lock the ankle, and loose the top two..  Once the COVID lockdown is over, I will try the one eyelet down thing.

 

@BenBreeg  not sure if there is a problem or not, to be honest.  I imagine taking a shot off the instep would hurt more than if there was more depth, but it isn’t like I want to do an experiment!  I’d love to keep him in CCM’s because I have extra runners, but safety comes before saving (sigh) if there really is a problem.  
 

thanks to all for comments so far.  I tend to fall into overthink mode on this stuff (don’t get me started on what flex a 4’7” 80 lbs kid should be using…it hurts when I think about it)
 

 

 

 

[krisdrum 233]

From my experience, I don't think Vapors are the path forward.  They are pretty low volume/depth.  I had a pair (EE) when I first started skating (about 6 years ago) and lace bite was a factor.  I had to experiment with a bunch of different lacing approaches to find comfort and my margin for error was pretty narrow.  A bit too tight on certain eyelets and I went from comfortable to agony. 

@BenBreeg and I have very similar feet.  High instep/depth around the ankle.  I have a pretty narrow heel and wide-ish forefoot.  I just picked up a pair of Ribcor 76K D width, that have surprised me.  They need a few small punch outs, but otherwise I really like them.  And no lace bite or depth issues.  They seem to be the most versatile in the CCM line, might be worth a look.  My son (same age as yours) has a pair of the 78K D, coming from 2 or 3 seasons in Vapor D and loves them. 

[JV23 12]

I like the Ribcor, he was in the youth 70k because it was so versatile (the legs seemed very against tacks at the time).  Different store put him in tacks for the 1s.  Last weekend I tried the ribcor on him and it was lower volume.  I didn’t think the Vapor made sense, to be honest, unless the EE cut was more width AND more depth.  I think it was elsewhere on here that mentioned the Supreme EE fit like a Nexus D, so I was willing to try that (and as a nod to @Mojo122, the D as well.  He tried on the neighbour’s Mission FZ5 2E rollers this AM to check depth (length way too much) and he was bulging out of those, though not as much.  I figure to try the Supremes if I can find stock and then leave it.  I’m not hearing a ton of “gasp, the horror, he’ll break his foot”, which was my primary concern.

 

I’ve done a few finger tests and it seems like he’s all the way back in the skate.  Is there any way to really check that, or is it worth a rebake to bang the heel back in the skate a bit if it is possible?

Edited July 13, 2021 by JV23

[boo10 323]

Sounds like his foot is similar in shape to mine.  I bulge out the top of any skate that is the correct length.  I've found that stiffer skates make the lace bite worse than a softer boot.  Even though I bulge out of a Ribcor D, the lace bite isn't much of a problem.  Your best bet might be eyelet extenders.  A couple people on this board have made their own.  There used to be a company called Great Saves or something that sold some that were highly recommended, but their website seems to be 404.

[BenBreeg 493]

Another thing to consider is the new CCM skates have replaceable tongue.  Get a great fit everywhere else and maybe swap in a thinner tongue and that may be enough.  If I could get a thinner tongue on my Ribcores I think I would be in pretty good shape. 

[EvilPepe 24]

This may not help the OP because of size availability at that point in the junior sizes, but the 80k skates in the E width are significantly deeper than the D width. I can't comment on the most recent skates (launched in the past 18 months) in either Bauer or CCM, but the 80k E's are the deepest stock boot I've found since the 2014 Tacks (the last generation Nexus would probably be second).

[JV23 12]

Thanks @evilpepe, good to know for a bit later.  

As an update, I got one of my LHS owners to take a look - tons of knowledge about fitting across multiple generations of boots, but tough hours to get to.   Based on his feedback, it looks like he was ready for a move to a size 2.  I had taken him to a big box hockey store (only because we were driving by and it was really bugging me) and got measured there with the Bauer blue stick, but I didn't believe it.  He got measured again using the old fashioned metal foot thingy, and it said essentially the same thing.  I guess that goes to show the scanner is iffy.

He had tried on a Supreme 3S EE in a size 2 and he said it felt good.  I really didn't like the feel of the skate though - felt pretty flimsy given he'd be skating in it at minimum 5 days up to 7 days per week for multiple hours, and the tongue didn't seem to offer much in the way of lace bite protection or anything.  Didn't get to try on the 3SPro due to lack of availability in his size.  Probably a good thing.

He tried on a Tacks 9070 and 9080 in 2 at the LHS's recommendation, which fit him really well.  What I was told was that they were the old Tacks fit before the 93XX series came in and shallowed things up a bit.  Being a bit of a sceptic, I had him try on a 9370 in 2D as well, and the instep bump out was back, compared to gone in the 9080.  The 9080s were even better once baked and pressure fitted.

Issue solved...for now!  I may have to go on the hunt for other sizes (like a 3) until he gets into the fit system, since I don't think the problem's going away any time soon.  With the 9080s on clearance, should be able to find at a good enough price to merit it/risk it.

[boo10 323]

The 9080 Tacks is a great skate, especially at clearance pricing.  Not sure about the JR sizes, but the SR 9080 also had a 10mm felt tongue which helped with lace bite.

[blue_line 2]

Good info on this thread. I have similar shaped feet (regular heel, wide forefoot, low arch, high instep) and finding skates is always an adventure.

My current skates are the 2016 CCM Super Tacks. They fit my foot awesome, but are getting a bit wrecked after 4+ years. I also have a pair of Bauer Supreme One.9 and Bauer Supreme S190. Each fit very similar to one another and to the CCM Super Tacks, but I like the forward pitch of the CCM over the neutral Bauers.

This last spring I went to find some new skates - either closeout or brand new releases. I tried the CCM AS3. They were very shallow and I could feel the tongue attachment on the top of my foot. I also tried the Bauer Vapor 2X Pro in a size FIT 3. Nope. Comfortable everywhere, but I was blowing out of the top of the skate.

Too bad. It sucks that Bauer and CCM have gone to less volume in their boot profiles.

I ended up going to Sideline Swap and buying two new pairs of the same skates I have. The cost of both pairs total was less than one pair of a newer release skate, so there's that.

I may try the new CCM RibCor when it's released. I don't have high hopes though as they always fit a bit less volume than the Tacks line in my past fitting experience.

[hockeydad3 51]

My feet are almost the same. Normal shaped but high instep and low arch. 

I'm happy with my new True TF7 in 6.5D with a Pro Tongue and without arch inserts. My feet are 256mm long.