Skate profiling, and why would it help me?

[Paluce 24]

On 9/3/2021 at 3:05 AM, Hanrider said:

hello, is quad 1 vs quad 0.5 big difference? I am skating on q1 and want to try 0.5 but don't know if it's worth it. 

So the Quad 0.5 is such a smooth and easy profile to skate on.  It’s not too extreme in any way. If you like a 9.5/10.5,  you will like the Quad 0.5 even more.  If someone wants to try a Quad 0 or 1 and they have never skated on one before and and not a top level skater, I usually recommend the Quad 0.5. It really makes everything easier, without any downsides.   And the OMNI Quad 0.5 from Blackstone is ever smoother that Prosharps. Blackstone’s is smoothly blended (gradually changing) from 8’  to 14’  from the toe to heal. So no transition points   that’s all I use.

[CBnCO 0]

I've been reading this thread and trying to learn more about profiling after purchasing a new pair of Bauer skates that have their "Power Profile" quad already on the blade. I do appreciate the technology assciated with custom profiling; but, I'm trying to figure out how to maintain it and get it done economically when there isn't a profiling shop anywhere close. Some say you need to re-profile yearly (depending upon skill or lack thereof of your sharpener and number of sharpens) and then you see adverts from Sparx or Blademaster saying their auto sharpeners don't degrade the profile at all. I do see the mail-in services; but, at $40-$50 for the profile and probably $10 in shipping each way and depending on how often one would need re-profiling it would almost be cheaper to get new blades each time..especially if you could buy them pre-profiled. 

As a side note, I was shocked to find that the pre-profiled Bauer runners that came on my skates cannot be purchased separately for a back up set or replacement. I just see some gaps between cost and convenience in the profiling process for now and I'm thinking it won't be too long before they'll sell replacement runners pre-profiled with the most common cuts at least. 

Perhaps I'm wrong in some of the info I've gathered or my assumptions and am interested in thoughts for those of use without a local profiler and without unlimited budget to work with? 

[start_today 770]

Blades have always come with some sort of “profile” on them. Whether or not they matched from the factory, or players did anything to maintain or update that profile is dependent on that player. 

On this site you have a bunch of nerds who overthink everything and are insistent on all the latest technology an trying new stuff. On the other hand, you have people skating on skates from 1997 with steel you can barely see, and they are still good players. 

Lots of people, myself included, would advocate that it’s worth profiling your steel and spending the time and money to maintain it. But, if you’ve never thought about it and you don’t feel like you’re missing anything, maybe that time and money is better spent elsewhere. 

That’s a total non-answer, haha, but I do think we tend to overcomplicate things sometimes. 

[Paluce 24]

$40-$50 to profile is crazy, I only Charge $20. To profile. Hockey is expensive enough…! 
 

but yes the Bauer Power profile is a Quad. But depends on the length of the runner. It could be a Quad XS, 0, 1, Quad 2.   I’ve scanned and measured the stock power profile and they match up very good out of the box. But another set of steel would need to be profiled to match.  And personally I re-profile ever 10-15 sharpenings. I’m picky and I want my two sets of steel to always be the same. (Profile/pitch/steel height) 

[CBnCO 0]

3 hours ago, start_today said:

Blades have always come with some sort of “profile” on them. Whether or not they matched from the factory, or players did anything to maintain or update that profile is dependent on that player. 

On this site you have a bunch of nerds who overthink everything and are insistent on all the latest technology an trying new stuff. On the other hand, you have people skating on skates from 1997 with steel you can barely see, and they are still good players. 

Lots of people, myself included, would advocate that it’s worth profiling your steel and spending the time and money to maintain it. But, if you’ve never thought about it and you don’t feel like you’re missing anything, maybe that time and money is better spent elsewhere. 

That’s a total non-answer, haha, but I do think we tend to overcomplicate things sometimes. 

I've always skated on stock radius/profiles and never thought much about it; but, I'm with the nerds and like the science that supports innovations. That said, I did think it was odd that Bauer includes a retail quad profile (280mm runners on mine, so not sure on which quad equivalent) and then doesn't make that same blade/profile combo available for replacement blades..and, it would be nice if they did and I would think a market opportunity for somebody to sell blade/profile combos. I just used the pricing from my other post from a couple places I found online (Bay Area, KK, Tydan, etc) and saw $40-$50 not including shipping. So, now I have a Quad profile blade on the skate and a standard profile backup..probably need to get them to match.

[Vet88 674]

12 hours ago, CBnCO said:

That said, I did think it was odd that Bauer includes a retail quad profile (280mm runners on mine, so not sure on which quad equivalent) and then doesn't make that same blade/profile combo available for replacement blades.

The logic is 2 fold: 1: they would have to run a complete new line of retail replacement blades across every single size so it effectively doubles your blade stock and costs just for those few who buy Sonics. 2: The majority of Bauer wearing skaters out there are on a stock 10' profile and will still want a stock profile when Bauer's marketing upsells them to a Pulse Ti. If you want to stick with a quad then you can get a new blade profiled but this way Bauer support the masses who are on 10'.

[CBnCO 0]

3 hours ago, Vet88 said:

The logic is 2 fold: 1: they would have to run a complete new line of retail replacement blades across every single size so it effectively doubles your blade stock and costs just for those few who buy Sonics. 2: The majority of Bauer wearing skaters out there are on a stock 10' profile and will still want a stock profile when Bauer's marketing upsells them to a Pulse Ti. If you want to stick with a quad then you can get a new blade profiled but this way Bauer support the masses who are on 10'.

Actually, the Power Profile also comes on the 3S Pro, which I have. I do see the associated commercial challenge with offering "pre-profiled" blades; but, my comment was predicated on the logic that profiled blades ultimately provide a net benefit to the skater and, if more readily available, most would convert to using profiled blades (as I likely will). It would certainly be an investment risk by Bauer to attempt to steer the market there proactively. 

As I mentioned previously, the odd thing is that Bauer trademarked their new "Power Profile" to go with their new blades and LS Edge holders and then didn't come up with a mechanism to get replacement blades with the same "Power Profile". What would be the net benefit to Bauer to get a skater hooked on their proprietary profile and then force them to go for re-profiling or replacements to a Prosharp or other shop? You'd think this feature would provide brand stickiness to dis-incent people to go to CCM or True. Perhaps I need to go buy the Bauer Hockey company to ensure this oversight is corrected! But, seriously, you make good points and my entry to this thread was really to better understand the benefits of profiling and then to figure out the best and most economical way to incorporate it. Cheers.

[mojo122 535]

2 hours ago, CBnCO said:

As I mentioned previously, the odd thing is that Bauer trademarked their new "Power Profile" to go with their new blades and LS Edge holders and then didn't come up with a mechanism to get replacement blades with the same "Power Profile". What would be the net benefit to Bauer to get a skater hooked on their proprietary profile and then force them to go for re-profiling or replacements to a Prosharp or other shop? You'd think this feature would provide brand stickiness to dis-incent people to go to CCM or True. Perhaps I need to go buy the Bauer Hockey company to ensure this oversight is corrected! But, seriously, you make good points and my entry to this thread was really to better understand the benefits of profiling and then to figure out the best and most economical way to incorporate it. Cheers.

Bauer now has a stake in the profiling business...

Bauer acquires ProSharp

[noupf 42]

On 9/4/2021 at 4:04 AM, Beflar said:

When I was doing research about skate profiling I stumbled on a YouTube video "What is hockey skate profiling" by the guys from Hockey Tutorial.  In the end he said he liked the Quad 0.5 the best so I started there..

The best way I can describe the Quad 0.5 is it 'Just feels natural'.  Note, I was coming from a single 11' profile and I changed my sharpen from 5/8 to a 3/4 when I changed profiles.  These two things made a dramatic change for the better with my skating.  I have yet to hear/read anyone say they hate the quad 0.5 and I can't say that for the other Quad profiles.  

Please note that I use to wear a mirrored visor and have used T blades in the past.  So take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Just curious, what size blades/holders are you using the quad 0.5 on?

Seems to me ( in my head as I try to wrap my brain around this multiple radius profiling stuff ) that even though you and many others seem to love the quad 0.5, wouldn't if fall out of favor on larger sized skates or smaller sized?  Hence the need to go up to a quad 1 for longer steel or down for shorter steel?  Does that make sense?

Edited September 10, 2021 by noupf

[puckpilot 312]

19 hours ago, CBnCO said:

Actually, the Power Profile also comes on the 3S Pro, which I have. I do see the associated commercial challenge with offering "pre-profiled" blades; but, my comment was predicated on the logic that profiled blades ultimately provide a net benefit to the skater and, if more readily available, most would convert to using profiled blades (as I likely will). It would certainly be an investment risk by Bauer to attempt to steer the market there proactively. 

One thing to think about is, it's easy to carry a stock 10' profile that is known to be widely used, but for those who are keen enough to do their homework and profile their blades to their personal specs, not everyone uses the same profile. From my experience, each person has specific needs, so profiles aren't a one size fits all. Using myself as an example, that power profile isn't even close to what my personal needs are. So for me, a stock 10' profile or stock power profile might as well be the same thing. They'd both get overwritten by my personal preferred profile. So Bauer would have went through all that extra effort for nothing. But like I said, that's just me.

And in general, I don't think there are enough people who really care about what profile they're using to make things worth while. From what I've seen, most people just want consistency. They want what worked for them before. I wonder how many people try out the power profile and then go back to the stock 10' or just let the profile fade because they don't want to drop the extra money to maintain it? 

 

[CBnCO 0]

21 hours ago, mojo122 said:

Bauer now has a stake in the profiling business...

Bauer acquires ProSharp

FYI..I just received a response from Bauer that they will discontinue the practice of including custom profiled blades (Power Profile) on retail skates into the future and will only offer them on Custom skate builds and through their Custom Steel (35 day lead time) programs. Apparently, they've determined, and probably for many of the reasons cited in this forum thread, that mass commercialization of pre-profiled steel isn't practical at this time. Heck, even startups who've tried to market single radius profiles produced in mass like T-Blade or Marsblade haven't exactly boomed to date. My conclusion is if you want the absolutely best performance from your blades/skates then find your profile and shell out the money to skate on it. And, good luck for you if you have a shop close who can do this for you reliably and economically. I think the majority of adult league skaters will continue to skate on standard, single radius, blades and will maximize their function by finding the right cut and a competent sharpener. 

I'm still looking forward to trying my Power Profile quad blades when our rink opens for the winter in a few weeks. I'm sure I'll like it and be faced with a choice of the challenge of maintaining it going forward or the easy decision to go back to standard blades out of convenience and cost. Good discussion here and thanks to all who have chimed in. I've learned a ton about skate profiling and it's place in the market. 

Edited September 11, 2021 by CBnCO

[Beflar 53]

On 9/10/2021 at 2:09 PM, noupf said:

Just curious, what size blades/holders are you using the quad 0.5 on?

Seems to me ( in my head as I try to wrap my brain around this multiple radius profiling stuff ) that even though you and many others seem to love the quad 0.5, wouldn't if fall out of favor on larger sized skates or smaller sized?  Hence the need to go up to a quad 1 for longer steel or down for shorter steel?  Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense.  I'm on a 9.5 skate.  When I tried to look up what size skate that the Quad 0.5 was recommended for I could not find an answer.  I think because that Quad 0.5 is not as dramatic as a normal quad( 8-10-12-14 vs 6-9-12-15), it could probably work for a wider range of sizes but that is just a guess.  

Great question thou.

 

[Beflar 53]

13 hours ago, CBnCO said:

 I think the majority of adult league skaters will continue to skate on standard, single radius, blades and will maximize their function by finding the right cut and a competent sharpener. 

The competitive part of me wants to keep the whole profiling thing to myself.  The less people know the better..

[Paluce 24]

On 9/10/2021 at 5:09 PM, noupf said:

Just curious, what size blades/holders are you using the quad 0.5 on?

Seems to me ( in my head as I try to wrap my brain around this multiple radius profiling stuff ) that even though you and many others seem to love the quad 0.5, wouldn't if fall out of favor on larger sized skates or smaller sized?  Hence the need to go up to a quad 1 for longer steel or down for shorter steel?  Does that make sense?

Honestly I profile skate of all different runner sizes with the OMNI Quad 0.5 from Blackstone. Because it does not have 4 zones, and is smoothly blended from toe to heel 8’ - 14’ you can do this…   You do need a senior size skate to get the full 8’ - 14’ profile, but on a smaller skate you might profile it using the middle portion from 8.5’ to 13.5’.    I profile my son’s size 1’s even using an OMNI Quad 1.  He Gets a 6’ toe, and 13’ heal with that. (Full profile is 6’ toe and 15’ heel) The OMNI Quads from Blackstone are more like an eclipse, except you know exactly what you are getting! At every point on the steel! The elipse might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of because you are getting this mystery profile.  

Edited September 13, 2021 by Paluce

[noupf 42]

4 hours ago, Paluce said:

Honestly I profile skate of all different runner sizes with the OMNI Quad 0.5 from Blackstone. Because it does not have 4 zones, and is smoothly blended from toe to heel 8’ - 14’ you can do this…   You do need a senior size skate to get the full 8’ - 14’ profile, but on a smaller skate you might profile it using the middle portion from 8.5’ to 13.5’.    I profile my son’s size 1’s even using an OMNI Quad 1.  He Gets a 6’ toe, and 13’ heal with that. (Full profile is 6’ toe and 15’ heel) The OMNI Quads from Blackstone are more like an eclipse, except you know exactly what you are getting! At every point on the steel! The elipse might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of because you are getting this mystery profile.  

Yes i agree, pro sharp not telling anybody what the multiple radius' are ( even approximately ) of the ellipse profiles is just plain stupid.

Edited September 13, 2021 by noupf

[hockeydad3 51]

38 minutes ago, noupf said:

Yes i agree, pro sharp not telling anybody what the multiple radius' are ( even approximately ) of the ellipse profiles is just plain stupid.

I can't find the Omni Quad profile templates for order on the Blackstone Homepage. 

[Paluce 24]

2 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

I can't find the Omni Quad profile templates for order on the Blackstone Homepage. 

Call them direct to order an OMNI Quad shaper bar set. Here’s a pic that shows how good it is. OMNI Quad 0.5    Or let me know if you need steel profiled using any OMNI Profile bar.  0, 0.5, 1, or 2. I have a full set. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Paluce
Spelling mistake

[bvictor 0]

I've continued to skate with the stock 9' profile since I posted this.  I continue to have issues where there doesn't feel like enough blade on the ice when I'm trying to get on outside edges.  I'm sure part of this is technique related (and maybe skate fit related?) however, I also think that I'm not comfortable with the stability of a 9' radius.  At this time, I'm considering a basic 10-11' dual to get more stability and glide compared to what I'm currently using.  From what I've read, I don't think this is a significant change that will adversely affect how I skate - but I'd like some thoughts from people who have gone from a smaller radius to a slightly larger dual/triple profile, and the transition between the two.  Is the jump I'm planning too large for an intermediate skater?  I'd also like a larger profile since it's been described as helping smoother strides and accumulating less fatigue being able to glide better.

Edited September 20, 2021 by bvictor

[Paluce 24]

2 hours ago, bvictor said:

I've continued to skate with the stock 9' profile since I posted this.  I continue to have issues where there doesn't feel like enough blade on the ice when I'm trying to get on outside edges.  I'm sure part of this is technique related (and maybe skate fit related?) however, I also think that I'm not comfortable with the stability of a 9' radius.  At this time, I'm considering a basic 10-11' dual to get more stability and glide compared to what I'm currently using.  From what I've read, I don't think this is a significant change that will adversely affect how I skate - but I'd like some thoughts from people who have gone from a smaller radius to a slightly larger dual/triple profile, and the transition between the two.  Is the jump I'm planning too large for an intermediate skater?  I'd also like a larger profile since it's been described as helping smoother strides and accumulating less fatigue being able to glide better.

You are not making that big of a change. But you will feel the difference. I would ask one question first.. is there anything you already really like with the 9’? If so you will probably give up a bit of that. And maybe a 9/10 or 9.5/10.5 is more what you are after.  Or if you are looking for less fatigue and better

glide with the same agility all you want perhaps a Max Edge 981 is what you want.  ( 9’ -50mm flat- 10’ ) .  Several people still like this profile because of the blade Contact with the ice in the Center.

[bvictor 0]

55 minutes ago, Paluce said:

You are not making that big of a change. But you will feel the difference. I would ask one question first.. is there anything you already really like with the 9’? If so you will probably give up a bit of that. And maybe a 9/10 or 9.5/10.5 is more what you are after.  Or if you are looking for less fatigue and better

glide with the same agility all you want perhaps a Max Edge 981 is what you want.  ( 9’ -50mm flat- 10’ ) .  Several people still like this profile because of the blade Contact with the ice in the Center.

I don't really know the positive attributes since that's what I've always skated on since this is my first pair of skates.  Only been at it for maybe a 8-9 months total, since the end of 2019.  Been skating much harder and more frequently over the summer.  So I guess my answer is that I don't even know what I'll miss.  I feel like I have good skating skills but just no trust in going hard on my outside edges at speed because I don't know if they'll grab properly, since it feels like there's very little contact patch with the ice.  I can crossover fine in non-game pace, when I can really focus on the feel (even backwards crossovers left over right).  I do like the agility I have currently but think I can benefit more from more ice contact.  

 

I hadn't heard of a 981 before.  Is Max Edge different than Prosharp?  I know a shop that has Prosharp locally, so probably will try that first.

Edited September 20, 2021 by bvictor

[Beflar 53]

10 hours ago, bvictor said:

I don't really know the positive attributes since that's what I've always skated on since this is my first pair of skates.  Only been at it for maybe a 8-9 months total, since the end of 2019.  Been skating much harder and more frequently over the summer.  So I guess my answer is that I don't even know what I'll miss.  I feel like I have good skating skills but just no trust in going hard on my outside edges at speed because I don't know if they'll grab properly, since it feels like there's very little contact patch with the ice.  I can crossover fine in non-game pace, when I can really focus on the feel (even backwards crossovers left over right).  I do like the agility I have currently but think I can benefit more from more ice contact.  

 

I hadn't heard of a 981 before.  Is Max Edge different than Prosharp?  I know a shop that has Prosharp locally, so probably will try that first.

9.5/10.5 dual would be a no brainer BUT QUAD 0.5 (8-10-12-14) could be your golden slipper:)   Just remember the more steel you have on the ice the more you are going to want to drop your sharpen.  I went from a 11'  5/8 to a Quad 0.5 3/4.

I use to wear a mirrored visor so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

 

[puckpilot 312]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:14 AM, bvictor said:

but I'd like some thoughts from people who have gone from a smaller radius to a slightly larger dual/triple profile, and the transition between the two.  Is the jump I'm planning too large for an intermediate skater?  I'd also like a larger profile since it's been described as helping smoother strides and accumulating less fatigue being able to glide better.

 

On 9/20/2021 at 12:04 PM, bvictor said:

So I guess my answer is that I don't even know what I'll miss.  I feel like I have good skating skills but just no trust in going hard on my outside edges at speed because I don't know if they'll grab properly, since it feels like there's very little contact patch with the ice.  I can crossover fine in non-game pace, when I can really focus on the feel (even backwards crossovers left over right).  I do like the agility I have currently but think I can benefit more from more ice contact.  

I think this is where you're going to have to experiment to find out what works for you.

For reference, here's what I went through to get to where I am now. When I started to experiment with profiles, it was because I had gone down half a size in skate, and it exasperated some flaws in my skating, in terms of stability in crossovers and getting up on my toes too much when accelerating. First thing I did was work on my technique to see if I could correct the issues. I tried for 6 months and only had marginal improvements. So, I got a second set of steel, and I went from a stock 10' profile with a 3/8 hollow to 12' profile with a 5/8" hollow and a +1 pitch on the new steel. Noticeable improvement in stability on crossovers, but also noticeable loss in agility, but that wasn't a concern because I had plenty to spare. I liked what I felt, but I wanted to see what a 13' profile would feel like, so I took my old steel and got it profiled to a 13' radius with a 3/4" hollow.

Felt like it was a bit too much with the 13' so I stuck with the 12' profile. Another 6 months goes by. Still having issues with getting up on my toes too much, but stability is on point.  I try the 13' profile again, but after getting used to the 12' profile the 13' now feels almost exactly like the 12' profile. So time for another change. I get my 12' steel profiled to a 13' with a neutral pitch instead of the +1 to try and keep me off my toes more. Turns out this is another step in the right direction.. More time goes on. More experimenting with other parts of my skate's set up. Still having issues with getting on my toes, so I do something way out of the box, I tried a negative pitch. Again, a positive step. BUT, this time it there was a big price to pay. The negative pitch made the heel area less stable, so I had stability issues again. I did some mental math and went to the shop asking for a profile larger than 13'. They didn't have templates for anything larger in a single radius. I thought about it some more and looked at my options. I ended up doing something even more out of the box. I went back to the shop and asked for a 13'/26' duo profile (which some goalies use) with a negative pitch and a 13/16 radius. This is what I'm on now except I'm on a 1" hollow now. 

This is what works for me. It not only allowed me to correct the issues, it allowed me to advance beyond what I was before. And the loss of agility, I don't even notice it any more. In fact, I'm sure I gained a lot of it back by simply becoming a better skater.

In all honesty, profiling isn't a quick fix. There's no magic bullet that solves things for all people, so don't expect perfect results. It's a journey comprised of a bunch of tiny incremental steps, where you need time to assess if something is working or not. Each time I made a change, it took a while before I could genuinely tell if it was helping or not. and how I wanted to proceed. Eg. A 13' profile was too much at first, and now, it's not enough.

Any ways, hope some of this... whatever it is... helps.

Edited September 22, 2021 by puckpilot

[bvictor 0]

12 hours ago, puckpilot said:

 

I think this is where you're going to have to experiment to find out what works for you.

Any ways, hope some of this... whatever it is... helps.

That does help, quite a bit.  I don't expect a profile to be some magical change, but maybe allow me to feel more comfortable doing some of the things that I'm still having issues developing.  At this point, with as much time on ice as I've been able to get, I think that what I'm currently using might be holding me back a bit in terms of further developing some skills and being able to trust and apply at game speeds.  I know that trusting your edges is the key to translating skills from practice, and I just don't have that right now.

I'm also looking at getting new skates since I got resized (this time by someone who really seemed to know what they were doing) and found that Supreme Fit 3 was the direction I needed to go.  Which I guess also has the Bauer 'power profile' stock from the mfg...not sure if I should just roll with that or get an extra set of steel with a 9.5/10.5 or a 10/12.  I guess time will tell, trying different setups like you mentioned over a long period of time.