Carbonlite runners from Hyperlite

[Beerleaguebumhockey 16]

3 hours ago, mhein22 said:

thats an irrelevant example.  boxing gloves are hanging off the ends of your arms.  the glove has leverage.  you are talking about a 60% weight increase.  the punching motion is literally trying to throw that glove forward.

when you are skating, you have 200lbs extended out over 6 feet away from your skate that your one leg is trying to push.  often times that 200 lbs has inertia so theres even more pounds of force at work against your leg.  at least one skate blade is on the ground at all times.  so you are talking about 200 pounds your moving, plus whatever is added by inertia forces and the leverage over 6 feet, and youre talking about an ounce or two hanging 6" off the ice and you think that makes any difference at all to your skating or stamina.  it absolutely does not.

if we are talking about a stick, of course the lightness makes a difference!  its 5 feet long and often you are manipulating it with just your wrist or forearm.  theres so much leverage involved there that the lightness makes a difference.  but a skate blade is hanging under your foot.  it has no leverage.  its a fraction of a percent of weight decrease.

if you put that on a blind test, i guarantee the results would come back as no discernible difference in skating or stamina.  and you are wearing runners that cost you a bunch of money and snap on you and send you into the boards.  its not good.

switched to Pulse TI as I just couldnt go back into the carbon. will post if i notice a difference tonight. Been skating on carbon for 2 months and havent skated in almost a week so we shall see.

[stick9 892]

Curious why Bauer choose to fuse the two parts. Why not make the carbon fiber part a spacer for a new lower height runner. That way the steel is replaceable after it's worn.

Also curious as to why they haven't tried titanium. Too brittle...too hard to sharpen? There has to be more to it than just cost.

[mojo122 535]

2 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Also curious as to why they haven't tried titanium. Too brittle...too hard to sharpen? There has to be more to it than just cost.

From what I'm seeing looks like many manufacturers are basing product design/decisions on cost.

[flip12 715]

48 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Curious why Bauer choose to fuse the two parts. Why not make the carbon fiber part a spacer for a new lower height runner. That way the steel is replaceable after it's worn.

Also curious as to why they haven't tried titanium. Too brittle...too hard to sharpen? There has to be more to it than just cost.

First paragraph, how would that work? Would it require a new holder or steel cross section?

Second paragraph, weren’t Ti runners used in the 90’s? What’s the story with those?

Another note in general, on the mass reduction compared to other steel options, at least A/B testing is as simple as swapping out steel. You could test everything, blind ideally. One CarbLite blade in one holder and something else in the other. Then opposite sides, one full set then the other. It would be interesting to see how perceptible the difference is, or if the feel is comparable, etc.

Edited September 17, 2021 by flip12

[noupf 42]

double post

Edited September 17, 2021 by noupf

[noupf 42]

1 hour ago, stick9 said:

Curious why Bauer choose to fuse the two parts. Why not make the carbon fiber part a spacer for a new lower height runner. That way the steel is replaceable after it's worn.

Also curious as to why they haven't tried titanium. Too brittle...too hard to sharpen? There has to be more to it than just cost.

pretty sure I read that titanium is actually brittle in the cold and i'd wager to say that it would break too easily especially if a frozen puck hits it with force, especially at the nhl level.  Steel might just be the only metal that makes sense here.

 

I see why Bauer is trying to shed weight, but like i said before, a couple of grams at this point, what's the difference?  Maybe at the nhl level where any slight edge can make the difference for an elite athlete, but all things considered, i think creating a fusion point between something as important as a skate blade isn't worth the gamble.......and we are seeing that they can break quickly.

Edited September 17, 2021 by noupf

[stick9 892]

2 hours ago, mojo122 said:

From what I'm seeing looks like many manufacturers are basing product design/decisions on cost.

Yeah, I see plenty of that here too.

1 hour ago, flip12 said:

First paragraph, how would that work? Would it require a new holder or steel cross section?

Second paragraph, weren’t Ti runners used in the 90’s? What’s the story with those?

Another note in general, on the mass reduction compared to other steel options, at least A/B testing is as simple as swapping out steel. You could test everything, blind ideally. One CarbLite blade in one holder and something else in the other. Then opposite sides, one full set then the other. It would be interesting to see how perceptible the difference is, or if the feel is comparable, etc.

I was thinking same holder. The runner would have elongated front and rear attachments features. Runner, is inserted into the carbon fiber shell then inserted into the holder like a standard edge runner.

Good question, not sure what became of those.

[boo10 323]

26 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Yeah, I see plenty of that here too.

I was thinking same holder. The runner would have elongated front and rear attachments features. Runner, is inserted into the carbon fiber shell then inserted into the holder like a standard edge runner.

Good question, not sure what became of those.

If I'm understanding your idea correctly, then the blade would flex too much because it would only be attached to the holder at the ends.  The blade needs to slot into the holder somehow to give some resistance to flex.

[mhein22 9]

Guys, GROUNDBREAKING LABORATORY DISCOVERY - Hockey socks weigh 2 oz.  Yes its true, its damn true.  By simply removing your hockey socks you too can skate faster, skate longer, and skate harder.

DOMINATE your competition.  POUND their goal.  LISTEN to their cries for mercy. 

Just like a boxer in lighter gloves, remove your hockey socks and you will BLOW BY opponents who used to skate circles around you.  Their wives will swoon in the stands.  YOU be the next "S"ocket Richard!

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 minute ago, mhein22 said:

Guys, GROUNDBREAKING LABORATORY DISCOVERY - Hockey socks weigh 2 oz.  Yes its true, its damn true.  By simply removing your hockey socks you too can skate faster, skate longer, and skate harder.

DOMINATE your competition.  POUND their goal.  LISTEN to their cries for mercy. 

Just like a boxer in lighter gloves, remove your hockey socks and you will BLOW BY opponents who used to skate circles around you.  Their wives will swoon in the stands.  YOU be the next "S"ocket Richard!

To save weight I decided to not wear skate socks, a jock/cup, undershirt, helmet and elbow pads. I timed myself and saw a .00000001 improvement in my speed tests. Totally worth it. 

😛 

[mhein22 9]

11 minutes ago, PBH said:

To save weight I decided to not wear skate socks, a jock/cup, undershirt, helmet and elbow pads. I timed myself and saw a .00000001 improvement in my speed tests. Totally worth it. 

😛 

I actually practice in socks for power training then for games I take them off and honestly i am flying out there.  its like my feet prisons made parole.  you know how sprinters train with those little parachutes?  this is like cutting off a full size parachute.  my coach has actually yelled at me after a 2g 2a game because he said he thinks i am dogging it in practice 🤣 its like coach bro im wearing socks in practice bro 🙃

[stick9 892]

/rolls eyes. You have two paths, add to the discussion or find a bridge to live under. Totally your call.

[mojo122 535]

Calling Mack....Mack.....help!

[mhein22 9]

22 hours ago, stick9 said:

/rolls eyes. You have two paths, add to the discussion or find a bridge to live under. Totally your call.

I'm illustrating the ludicrousness of my opponents argument.  We are literally talking about playing in socks or not like it makes you faster and better 😆😆😆😆

 

Want to actually answer that argument or not?  Does it?

[Buzz_LightBeer 969]

[mhein22 9]

17 hours ago, Buzz_LightBeer said:

 

 

you didnt add to the discussion.  does taking off your socks make you faster and increase your stamina or not?  answer the question.  dont post memes for gods sakes.

[caveman27 208]

On 9/14/2021 at 10:38 PM, Westside said:

Well if you reduced the vehicle’s unsprung weight by 35% (which is what Bauer claims the weight savings over traditional steel is), you would see a pretty dramatic difference in performance (whether that’s speed, handling, or efficiency). High performance sports cars do this all the time whether it’s using lighter weight forged wheels, carbon ceramic brakes, or replacing traditional metals with carbon fiber. 

Pretty sure airplanes, cars, and plenty of other demanding vehicles that use lighter weight aluminum aren’t ‘weak as hell’ or don’t simply  ‘fold over’. It’s not like a runner is going to be made from a beer can. 

I’m not on the hype train of the carbon runners, but you’re digging yourself into a hole by saying some pretty stupid/easily disproved things. Stop while you’re ahead 

I had a big decrease in skate boot weight when I went from mid-2000 Bauer Supremes to mid-2010 CCM Jetspeed. Sprinting forward and doing cross overs, I felt mildly faster. Stopping wasn't any faster nor was pivoting.

On flipside, on my Bauer Supremes, I bought some Step Steel blades which were taller and heavier to get some height. I did feel the extra weight, but it didn't slow me down that much in the beginning of a game. It was felt more later on in the game when I was physically tired and I was coasting more north-south and hardly doing east-west skating. Side note, I don't know why some people don't show up to games and we have a roster of 15 guys but only 7 plus the goalie show up. Side note rant... over. 

So, with the CCM Jetspeeds, I felt fast. Much like the Supremes in games where we had 2 or 3 guys on the bench to sub, decreased skate weight didn't make much of a difference since I had run out of energy.

Edited September 19, 2021 by caveman27

[Beerleaguebumhockey 16]

The argument here continues to be its not enough weight. But I haven't scored in three games since switching to the regular steel. There is the proof right there, goal streak over 😉 clearly the carbon made me score more. 

[flip12 715]

I find it much easier to sprint in my MLX boots that are ~ 70 grams lighter than my classic Grafs, even though I find the flex profile of the Grafs more natural. It sounds dumb it's so simple, but my feet definitely feel significantly lighter in the MLX.

Edited September 20, 2021 by flip12

[psulion22 402]

On 9/17/2021 at 10:40 AM, stick9 said:

I was thinking same holder. The runner would have elongated front and rear attachments features. Runner, is inserted into the carbon fiber shell then inserted into the holder like a standard edge runner.

This could actually be the solution to the problem.  Right now you have two fused pieces that don't truly integrate into each other.  If Bauer added posts to the steel portion that ran up into the carbon fiber tabs, it would likely solve the issue of breakage, and maybe even make the runner more sturdy as well.  Even simply adding metal reinforcement to the tab portion would probably fix the problem

[mojo122 535]

From a sharpening standpoint what issues is/are anyone seeing?  How well do they sharpen on an automated machine such as ProSharp or Sparx?

[VegasHockey 1280]

3 minutes ago, mojo122 said:

From a sharpening standpoint what issues is/are anyone seeing?  How well do they sharpen on an automated machine such as ProSharp or Sparx?

They sharpen decently well, but not as good as the Pulse Ti or LS5. I don't think you can sharpen them on a ProSharp due to the clamp. Havent tried Sparx. Only used my SSM units. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by PBH

[psulion22 402]

Manufacturers have been trying to shave grams off of the runner weight for decades, just like they've been trying to do to all the equipment.  They switched the holders from metal to plastic.  Then they added holes to them.  Then they added holes to the steel runners.  T Blades made a runner that was a smaller piece of metal and a lrger plastic holder.  Bauer tried fusing aluminum to the steel.  Now they're trying that with carbon fiber.

If there was no tangible benefit, skate manufacturers wouldn't have been trying to cut weight essentially since they started making skates.  I agree that the redution of even 35% of the weight of a runner, which results in just a few grams, is likely not going to make anyone faster or better when taken as a weight savings.  However, there are two reasons I can think of that would actually make a difference and cause an improvement in performance.  

The first is overall weight distribution and balance.  These runners are being included on Bauer's flagship skates.  Those skates are incredibly light overall.  Changing the distribution of the weight by even a few grams could make a pretty big difference to how the skates feel to the player.  Reducing the amount of weight underneath the foot would likely improve the feeling the skater has with the ice.  CCM has gone to one piece boots, not just to cut overall weight, but to eliminate the midsole and the weight under the foot as a result.  As an example of this, forget the weight of composite vs wood sticks where the difference is huge, but look at how changing just a few grams here or there can result in a composite stick that feels too blade heavy, or not blade heavy enough to give good puck feel.  Look at how adding one or two grams of lead tape to a golf clubs changes the swing weight and performance.  

Second is playing off T Blades design, and goes along with the development of countless methods of reducing drag like blade profiles, FBV, Z Channel, Flare blades, and many others.  Skating creates friction between the metal blade and the ice.  That friction heats the metal and causes surface melting, that melting is what allows us to glide on the ice.  When skates are too sharp, the edges penetrate the surface melt and dig, reducing glide.  By reducing the amount of metal in the runner, you also reduce the mass of the blade.  Reducing the mass of the blade allows it to heat faster and higher, causing more surface melt, and increasing glide.  An increase in glide and a reduction of drag could increase overall speed, manueverability, efficiency, and endurance, far more than the simple reduction in weight of a few grams could.  Plus, less metal likely means less rigidity, and more flex on the blade.  That flex creates more energy return, acceleration, and stopping efficiency (part of the theory behind Bladetech runners).

[flip12 715]

30 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

Manufacturers have been trying to shave grams off of the runner weight for decades, just like they've been trying to do to all the equipment.  They switched the holders from metal to plastic.  Then they added holes to them.  Then they added holes to the steel runners.  T Blades made a runner that was a smaller piece of metal and a lrger plastic holder.  Bauer tried fusing aluminum to the steel.  Now they're trying that with carbon fiber.

If there was no tangible benefit, skate manufacturers wouldn't have been trying to cut weight essentially since they started making skates.  I agree that the redution of even 35% of the weight of a runner, which results in just a few grams, is likely not going to make anyone faster or better when taken as a weight savings.  However, there are two reasons I can think of that would actually make a difference and cause an improvement in performance.  

The first is overall weight distribution and balance.  These runners are being included on Bauer's flagship skates.  Those skates are incredibly light overall.  Changing the distribution of the weight by even a few grams could make a pretty big difference to how the skates feel to the player.  Reducing the amount of weight underneath the foot would likely improve the feeling the skater has with the ice.  CCM has gone to one piece boots, not just to cut overall weight, but to eliminate the midsole and the weight under the foot as a result.  As an example of this, forget the weight of composite vs wood sticks where the difference is huge, but look at how changing just a few grams here or there can result in a composite stick that feels too blade heavy, or not blade heavy enough to give good puck feel.  Look at how adding one or two grams of lead tape to a golf clubs changes the swing weight and performance.  

Second is playing off T Blades design, and goes along with the development of countless methods of reducing drag like blade profiles, FBV, Z Channel, Flare blades, and many others.  Skating creates friction between the metal blade and the ice.  That friction heats the metal and causes surface melting, that melting is what allows us to glide on the ice.  When skates are too sharp, the edges penetrate the surface melt and dig, reducing glide.  By reducing the amount of metal in the runner, you also reduce the mass of the blade.  Reducing the mass of the blade allows it to heat faster and higher, causing more surface melt, and increasing glide.  An increase in glide and a reduction of drag could increase overall speed, manueverability, efficiency, and endurance, far more than the simple reduction in weight of a few grams could.  Plus, less metal likely means less rigidity, and more flex on the blade.  That flex creates more energy return, acceleration, and stopping efficiency (part of the theory behind Bladetech runners).

Wouldn't more surface melt mean more drag? Comparing to faster ice being ice that's colder, with less of a liquid (pseudo?)layer.

[psulion22 402]

2 minutes ago, flip12 said:

Wouldn't more surface melt mean more drag? Comparing to faster ice being ice that's colder, with less of a liquid (pseudo?)layer.

We're talking about layers only molecules thick.  So yes, hard ice is faster than softer ice, or worse ice that's wet on top.  But for moving on ice, the melted water layer creates a hydroplane effect that the blades move over.  A little more water and you go faster, too much and then surface tension kicks in and you stick.

Here's an article explaining it.  

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/2/13/16973886/why-is-ice-slippery