Black Sticks

[CBnCO 0]

A friend of mine got a Pro Blackout stick from HSM and said he liked it. So, I started doing some research and in addition to the HSM regular and lite Pro Blackout sticks, I saw No Name, All Black, Twig, and more. All seem to offer a similar product, a 380g to 425g stick for $100 to $150ish and with plenty of good reviews. They all advertise 18K carbon, one piece construction, etc.. I'm trying to understand who actually makes these sticks, are they all from the same factory? And, how to differentiate between these value sticks and brands How good is the value and performance versus "last year's model" big brand name stick on clearance or a pro stock stick, both at similar prices? 

 

[start_today 770]

When you say “plenty of good reviews,” are these good in-depth reviews from people who know their stuff and put products through actual testing, or good reviews from average people who bought the stick, and just posting a five star review on the website? 

[CBnCO 0]

2 hours ago, start_today said:

When you say “plenty of good reviews,” are these good in-depth reviews from people who know their stuff and put products through actual testing, or good reviews from average people who bought the stick, and just posting a five star review on the website? 

That's what I meant..the ones on the company's website..not so many in other places. At the end of the day, the question is are these sticks at these prices a legit value (a $300 stick for $150 or less) and, if so, of all the brands which to consider. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

4 hours ago, CBnCO said:

That's what I meant..the ones on the company's website..not so many in other places. At the end of the day, the question is are these sticks at these prices a legit value (a $300 stick for $150 or less) and, if so, of all the brands which to consider. 

Pro Blackout sticks from HSM are decent. I would however go with a Pro Stock stick at the same price point any day. 

[CBnCO 0]

7 hours ago, PBH said:

Pro Blackout sticks from HSM are decent. I would however go with a Pro Stock stick at the same price point any day. 

Ha..I'm assuming you mean a pro stock CCM, Bauer, etc..and not a prostockhockeysticks.com "black" stick? See how confusing it can be. And, this would be because you believe the manufacturing and design methods of the big brands are superior? Which may be the case; but, go read many of the reviews on hockeymonkey, etc..about people complaining how their CCM, Bauer, Warrior, & True broke after 3 or 4 uses. Sure a $129 Pro Blackout sounds great against a non-discounted $300 stick; but, last's years model and pro stocks can be had for less than $150 and not sure that makes the "black" sticks as much of a value. I think these companies could do better with their advertising to help a consumer clearly understand the differences in the stick construction and tech. Compared to sticks from 15 years ago, they are probably all much better!

[krisdrum 233]

1 hour ago, CBnCO said:

Ha..I'm assuming you mean a pro stock CCM, Bauer, etc..and not a prostockhockeysticks.com "black" stick? See how confusing it can be. And, this would be because you believe the manufacturing and design methods of the big brands are superior? Which may be the case; but, go read many of the reviews on hockeymonkey, etc..about people complaining how their CCM, Bauer, Warrior, & True broke after 3 or 4 uses. Sure a $129 Pro Blackout sounds great against a non-discounted $300 stick; but, last's years model and pro stocks can be had for less than $150 and not sure that makes the "black" sticks as much of a value. I think these companies could do better with their advertising to help a consumer clearly understand the differences in the stick construction and tech. Compared to sticks from 15 years ago, they are probably all much better!

No, I think he means prostockhockeysticks.  There is a recent thread on them and by most accounts seem to be the best of the rest in this category.  Hills did a review of them about a year ago and said they stacked up very favorably against top of the line name brand sticks. 

[bl4 39]

3 hours ago, CBnCO said:

Ha..I'm assuming you mean a pro stock CCM, Bauer, etc..and not a prostockhockeysticks.com "black" stick? See how confusing it can be. And, this would be because you believe the manufacturing and design methods of the big brands are superior? Which may be the case; but, go read many of the reviews on hockeymonkey, etc..about people complaining how their CCM, Bauer, Warrior, & True broke after 3 or 4 uses. Sure a $129 Pro Blackout sounds great against a non-discounted $300 stick; but, last's years model and pro stocks can be had for less than $150 and not sure that makes the "black" sticks as much of a value. I think these companies could do better with their advertising to help a consumer clearly understand the differences in the stick construction and tech. Compared to sticks from 15 years ago, they are probably all much better!

By way of clarification, I think that a reference to "black sticks" in this context could mean one of a few things:

1) A stick from prohockeystickes.com, as suggested by krisdrum.  Check out the recent thread - the reviews seem to be pretty strong and my sense is that the big selling point is access to hard-to-find curves.

2) A "blacked out" or otherwise graphics-free stick from hockeystickman, prostockhockey, or some other retailer.  My sense is that these can be a bit of a crapshoot in terms of quality.  I've never purchased one of the sticks, but I have purchased "blacked out" shafts and blades in the past and found them to be relatively disappointing, even at a lower price point.

3) A stick from "Allblackhockeysticks." These are budget-friendly (~$90) sticks that have no graphics or branding and are marketed towards beer league consumers.  I tried a teammate's at some point in the past and found it serviceable, but not anywhere near as good as a pro stock or older model high-end stick.  In other words, it played like a budget-friendly stick.

My sense is that you're talking about #2, but I hope that these descriptions help w/the confusion 

[start_today 770]

I play in a league that had some sort of sponsorship deal with All Black Sticks for a few seasons. Each season, a player or two would win a free stick. The people who won these for free didn’t like them, and generally didn’t use them. This is only a sample size of six people or so, but even when people pay for them the best reviews I see are “it’s good for the money” or “I can’t tell the difference.”

If you know where to look and be patient, they aren’t good for the money. These are people who bought a thing, and want to feel good about  it, so they leave a good review. And for people who say things like “I don’t care, I can’t tell a difference,” these aren’t people with nuanced views from whom you want to accept advice. 

I’m overly cost conscious in my typical day to day life. I love a good value, and will spend extra time and energy to save money. I have literally NEVER* seen a stick from a discount supplier that is a good value and worth what you spend on it. Typically, you are getting less bang for your buck. People are charmed by the idea of getting a “good deal,” and focus more on that than whether it actually plays well relative to what you paid. 

*A few people on here who I really trust stand behind the Prohockeysticks.com stuff. I haven’t used or seen one in person. But, for the same $130 -$140 you are paying them, you can probably find a new prostock stick from a big name manufacture that meets your needs. I think the advantage that site offers is being able to order weird curves pretty easily. If you’re fine using a 92/88/28 curve, you should be able to find one fairly easily in the $110 - $130 range. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 11/22/2021 at 4:17 AM, CBnCO said:

Ha..I'm assuming you mean a pro stock CCM, Bauer, etc..and not a prostockhockeysticks.com "black" stick? See how confusing it can be. And, this would be because you believe the manufacturing and design methods of the big brands are superior? Which may be the case; but, go read many of the reviews on hockeymonkey, etc..about people complaining how their CCM, Bauer, Warrior, & True broke after 3 or 4 uses. Sure a $129 Pro Blackout sounds great against a non-discounted $300 stick; but, last's years model and pro stocks can be had for less than $150 and not sure that makes the "black" sticks as much of a value. I think these companies could do better with their advertising to help a consumer clearly understand the differences in the stick construction and tech. Compared to sticks from 15 years ago, they are probably all much better!

Let me clarify. I think a genuine Pro Stock CCM/Bauer/Warrior/etc or a stick from http://prostockhockeysticks.com/ is better option than All Black (brand) stick or HSM Blackout (brand) stick. The quality, construction, balance point, feel, and pop are significantly better. 

Yes, sometimes you get a bad Pro Stock stick (CCM/Bauer/Warrior/etc) and it only lasts a few games, but that can happen if you buy a retail $300+ stick as well. We sell a ton of Pro Stock sticks and the ones that usually have limited life are the latest builds that are super light (FT3 Pro, Trigger 5 Pro, Vapor ADV, etc) and the failure rate of those sticks is no better or worse than the top tier sticks yet the cost if half the price. If someone breaks their stick within the first 30-45 days and it looks like a genuine failure we usually work with the buyer and provide them a new stick at a significant discount. 

Has stick construction changed significantly in the last 15 years? Debatable. Weight has gone down due to flatter carbon weave, less resin and updated procedures but I don't consider these changes to be revolutionary. The Sherwood Rekker EK15 was released in 2014 and its sequel the EK60 both weighed under 385 grams. Thats less than the current Bauer Nexus Geo and Hyperlite.

There is a very limited amount of technology that can be incorporated into stick shafts, you remove weight by using less materials which means less life in the stick. There is no way of getting around that. No fancy carbon weave, layering process, or magical resin is going to change this. Look at the failure rate of low end sticks vs high end sticks and you will see a direct correlation. 

[Sniper9 530]

I picked up a blackout extra lite from HSM in a 75 flex. Held it and felt good. Imo looks like an undressed rekker. Flexed it .... And was incredibly disappointed that it felt like a rock. I double checked the flex on the sticker and the name bar. It literally feels like an 85-90. It's so stiff I'm not even going to try to use it and I'll be out 50 bucks in total shipping after all is said and done. 

[birky 24]

On 11/23/2021 at 8:48 AM, VegasHockey said:

Let me clarify. I think a genuine Pro Stock CCM/Bauer/Warrior/etc or a stick from http://prostockhockeysticks.com/ is better option than All Black (brand) stick or HSM Blackout (brand) stick. The quality, construction, balance point, feel, and pop are significantly better. 

Yes, sometimes you get a bad Pro Stock stick (CCM/Bauer/Warrior/etc) and it only lasts a few games, but that can happen if you buy a retail $300+ stick as well. We sell a ton of Pro Stock sticks and the ones that usually have limited life are the latest builds that are super light (FT3 Pro, Trigger 5 Pro, Vapor ADV, etc) and the failure rate of those sticks is no better or worse than the top tier sticks yet the cost if half the price. If someone breaks their stick within the first 30-45 days and it looks like a genuine failure we usually work with the buyer and provide them a new stick at a significant discount. 

Has stick construction changed significantly in the last 15 years? Debatable. Weight has gone down due to flatter carbon weave, less resin and updated procedures but I don't consider these changes to be revolutionary. The Sherwood Rekker EK15 was released in 2014 and its sequel the EK60 both weighed under 385 grams. Thats less than the current Bauer Nexus Geo and Hyperlite.

There is a very limited amount of technology that can be incorporated into stick shafts, you remove weight by using less materials which means less life in the stick. There is no way of getting around that. No fancy carbon weave, layering process, or magical resin is going to change this. Look at the failure rate of low end sticks vs high end sticks and you will see a direct correlation. 

I believe Sherwood was ahead of the game in making sub 400g sticks. The True Touch T120 was a 395g mid-kick stick in 2014.

As far as the "custom" brands go, Pro Stock Hockey Sticks is king. The guy that runs it is very nice and has always been happy to answer questions for me. He has a warranty program (I've used it) and the product itself is very good. I've tried 6 or 7 of his curves so far in various builds. Both the red line sticks ($160 usd) and the third line sticks ($110) are solid. They probably aren't quite as good as a $300+ stick, but they're close enough that the price difference should be a consideration. And he offers curve options you can't get anywhere else. I'd like to see him offer some more variance in curves - the vast majority of his curves are P92 or P28 variants, so for someone like me who prefers a PM9 or a P88, there are far fewer options. And the custom order process is waaaay too long.

Edited January 19, 2023 by birky

[RodneyPierce 11]

8 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

I picked up a blackout extra lite from HSM in a 75 flex. Held it and felt good. Imo looks like an undressed rekker. Flexed it .... And was incredibly disappointed that it felt like a rock. I double checked the flex on the sticker and the name bar. It literally feels like an 85-90. It's so stiff I'm not even going to try to use it and I'll be out 50 bucks in total shipping after all is said and done. 

Or try contacting him...  I know some of this sticks are actually ProStockHockeySticks.com sticks and the flex on those sticks is spot on IMO, from my experience.  I've actually had Sherwood and Warrior sticks in 75 flex that I had to triple check because there is no way in hell they were a true 75 flex stick, and also felt like 95 flex sticks.

[stick9 890]

20 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

I picked up a blackout extra lite from HSM in a 75 flex. Held it and felt good. Imo looks like an undressed rekker. Flexed it .... And was incredibly disappointed that it felt like a rock. I double checked the flex on the sticker and the name bar. It literally feels like an 85-90. It's so stiff I'm not even going to try to use it and I'll be out 50 bucks in total shipping after all is said and done. 

oaf, that stinks. I was thinking about trying one now that they offer a P90TM (Benn Pro). Not after reading this.

[Hills 712]

6 hours ago, stick9 said:

oaf, that stinks. I was thinking about trying one now that they offer a P90TM (Benn Pro). Not after reading this.

the HSM Blackouts aren't good, but the Prostockhockeystick ones HSM sells are good. Don't think you can get the Benn pro in that model though.

[Sniper9 530]

19 hours ago, RodneyPierce said:

Or try contacting him...  I know some of this sticks are actually ProStockHockeySticks.com sticks and the flex on those sticks is spot on IMO, from my experience.  I've actually had Sherwood and Warrior sticks in 75 flex that I had to triple check because there is no way in hell they were a true 75 flex stick, and also felt like 95 flex sticks.

I did contact them and they are going to double check themselves and compare the stick I got to other brands to see how off it is. This one isn't form prostock hockey. The ones that are are, I believe are the "custom" pro blackout that are available in pro curves. Warrior and sher wood I recall being on the stiffer side as well but this was even stiffer. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Sniper9

[RodneyPierce 11]

24 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

I did contact them and they are going to double check themselves and compare the stick I got to other brands to see how off it is. This one isn't form prostock hockey. The ones that are are, I believe are the "custom" pro blackout that are available in pro curves. Warrior and sher wood I recall being on the stiffer side as well but this was even stiffer. 

Ah.  Ok.  My mistake then.  Good on them to at least check it!

The friggin Warrior "75 flex" I had might as well have been 100.  It was ridiculous!

[218hockey 50]

4 hours ago, RodneyPierce said:

 

The friggin Warrior "75 flex" I had might as well have been 100.  It was ridiculous!

 

That's odd. What stick model was that?

[RodneyPierce 11]

14 minutes ago, 218hockey said:

 

That's odd. What stick model was that?

Covert QRE

[218hockey 50]

We'll see. I have a QRE 10, 75 flex, that should be here Friday.

Sorry, off topic.

[start_today 770]

15 hours ago, Hills said:

the HSM Blackouts aren't good, but the Prostockhockeystick ones HSM sells are good. Don't think you can get the Benn pro in that model though.

Are those labeled as being from PSH?

[sweetblazer 0]

I just received a Custom Extra lite blackout right around Xmas and used it twice so far. Definitely no where close to the performance of the high end $350+ sticks. Noticeably heavier, blade heavy I find. I'm going to measure tonight but I find it hard to believe it's 400g as listed. I like the site, and the idea, and for the money it's better than anything else you'd get at that price but it certainly isn't a replacement for the high end. I'd love to try the "real" PRO sticks in the 375 models to see because I love what he's doing and the options. 

[beedee 227]

Anyone else confused by this company using the word "Pro" in their name? The product seems to be a bit on the bootleg side of things based off of what I'm reading here.

Are these "all black", "pro-stock" and "hockey stickman" companies getting their product from the same manufacturer? I've watched a YouTube video from one of the companies and he says he has product engineers from a former "big" hockey company on his team..

Edited January 20, 2023 by beedee

[Hills 712]

12 hours ago, start_today said:

Are those labeled as being from PSH?

 

They have HSM x PRO in the images for the curves.

6 hours ago, sweetblazer said:

I just received a Custom Extra lite blackout right around Xmas and used it twice so far. Definitely no where close to the performance of the high end $350+ sticks. Noticeably heavier, blade heavy I find. I'm going to measure tonight but I find it hard to believe it's 400g as listed. I like the site, and the idea, and for the money it's better than anything else you'd get at that price but it certainly isn't a replacement for the high end. I'd love to try the "real" PRO sticks in the 375 models to see because I love what he's doing and the options. 

I am not sure why you would think the 400g version was going to directly compete against the top end from the big companies at $360+.

[sweetblazer 0]

15 hours ago, Hills said:

 

They have HSM x PRO in the images for the curves.

I am not sure why you would think the 400g version was going to directly compete against the top end from the big companies at $360+.

Yeah that's fair I didn't mean to sat that it should feel the same, I guess I was just expecting it to feel better than it does. It's literally less than half the price of a top end stick and probably about half the price of a comparable model from the big manufactures. Feels well made, and I weighed it and it is exactly 400g. I'm curious how the REDLINE version at 375g feels now, I never thought 25g could make a noticeable difference but here we are I guess. 

[Sniper9 530]

4 minutes ago, sweetblazer said:

Yeah that's fair I didn't mean to sat that it should feel the same, I guess I was just expecting it to feel better than it does. It's literally less than half the price of a top end stick and probably about half the price of a comparable model from the big manufactures. Feels well made, and I weighed it and it is exactly 400g. I'm curious how the REDLINE version at 375g feels now, I never thought 25g could make a noticeable difference but here we are I guess. 

25 grams does make a diff especially if balance points are off. My trigger 4 pro is 15 ish grams heavier than the trigger 7 pro and it feels much better balanced and less blade heavy