CCM FT4 Pro Skates - eyelets wrecked first use

[noupf 42]

31 minutes ago, flip12 said:

From factory videos I’ve seen, eyelets are punched out, not drilled. It’s probably easier to get a clean cut that way, and I imagine drilling would stress the material beyond the eyelet area. RocketFrame composite is a kind of fibreglass blend if i remember right, only the Tacks mention carbon. That doesn’t change the contact surface qualities much, though, which makes me think of monocoque boots having rivet issues. Maybe there’s not enough tooth to the combo of smooth quarter panels and eyelet rings to hold on as well as when there’s some pleather facing there.

There's still a solid round tubular core to a grommet or eyelet rivet.  Basically you are sliding a round tube into a hole and then mashing the other end to hold it tight and in place......nowhere for the rivet to go unless the underlying material around the rivet is compromised in some way, no?

My guess is that these were over tightened right after baking ( unless it was stated otherwise earlier in the thread ) and or a lot of force was applied to the eyelet's and composite material while still warm and or skated in hard while still warm.

Edited January 23, 2023 by noupf

[noupf 42]

Take a look at eyelet 4 and 8 in the picture.......they too have shifted.  I'm leaning toward boot too warm and over tightened or played in while to warm.

Did eyelet #1 shift and snap?  and #2 just shifted?

[218hockey 50]

Get them all replaced.

What is an average store charge for eyelet replacement? Few dollars each?

[Sniper9 530]

38 minutes ago, 218hockey said:

Get them all replaced.

What is an average store charge for eyelet replacement? Few dollars each?

No point just return them. 

[Monty22 832]

53 minutes ago, 218hockey said:

Get them all replaced.

What is an average store charge for eyelet replacement? Few dollars each?

Those are too far gone. The hole the eyelets shaft goes into has been enlarged/elongated. Putting in new eyelets will result in them just rattling around the expanded holes.  

[colins 246]

6 hours ago, Monty22 said:

Those are too far gone. The hole the eyelets shaft goes into has been enlarged/elongated. Putting in new eyelets will result in them just rattling around the expanded holes.  

Agreed. They weren’t skated in until 24hrs+ after baking. 

Here’s the extent of the shifted eyelets. Eyelet 1 is cracked. The rest are shifted. Not feasible to repair given they are 1 game old. Whether the blame is too much heat or tightened too hard after baking, they’re toast. 
 

Edited January 24, 2023 by colins

[Sniper9 530]

I have to ask but how much does your son reef on his laces when he ties his skates. I mean, you had a whole thread on his old jetspeeds eyelets and now this. Did he wear anything in between that didn't have eyelet issues?  Did he tie the skates himself during the bake, or did the hockey shop staff do it?  

Looking at how angled up the top eyelet is, it's unlikely this was caused during gameplay since forward flexion would cause the eyelet to stain horizontally and not upwards. Also if staff was lacing the skates for him they wouldn't be pulling up in that direction, that would be really awkward. So my guess is they baked it and your son cranked the living hell out of the laces while pulling towards him, hence the angle the eyelet is torn 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Sniper9

[beedee 227]

I'm not sure I'm buying what the OP is selling. 

[Sniper9 530]

1 minute ago, beedee said:

I'm not sure I'm buying what the OP is selling. 

I think we all agreed it's not a defective skate. It's user error for sure. 

[colins 246]

12 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

I have to ask but how much does your son reef on his laces when he ties his skates. I mean, you had a whole thread on his old jetspeeds eyelets and now this. Did he wear anything in between that didn't have eyelet issues?  Did he tie the skates himself during the bake, or did the hockey shop staff do it?  

Looking at how angled up the top eyelet is, it's unlikely this was caused during gameplay since forward flexion would cause the eyelet to stain horizontally and not upwards. Also if staff was lacing the skates for him they wouldn't be pulling up in that direction, that would be really awkward. So my guess is they baked it and your son cranked the living hell out of the laces while pulling towards him, hence the angle the eyelet is torn 

 

 

Bauer before switching to Jetspeed when the first Jetspeed came out - found the receipt from the original RMA - first pair bought in July 2015. So he's been through 5 or 6 pairs of Jetspeeds (top end model or 2nd tier) in past 7 years.

He's always worn out skates relatively fast (usually 1-2 seasons max) due to 1) Hyper-hydrosis level sweating (corrosive) and 2) Plays hard/physical and 3) On the ice 5-6 times a week and 4) Likes his skates tight - he does pull the laces as tight as anyone or a bit tighter than the average player.

He baked and tied them in store under direction of the staff.

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by colins

[colins 246]

38 minutes ago, beedee said:

I'm not sure I'm buying what the OP is selling. 

 

Check my posts. I've been playing myself for 40 years, two boys in their 20s one playing D3 the other JrA. I've repaired a bunch of gear myself from repalming a glove, to replacing eyelets with my own press, to stitching a shoulder cap on a pair of shoulder pads, to being a Sparx kickstarter early adopter. 

I'm not bullshitting - this is our own experience with CCM Jetspeeds. Overall positive, he loves the fit and performance, 7+ years from 2015 to present and 5 or 6 pairs of top end or 2nd tier CCM Jetspeed line. But eyelets have been the bane of the experience as they always failed early before the boot/holder - the irony is I thought the all brass FT4 Pro was the final solution to that. Then this happened!

For sure he's an outlier in terms of skate durability for several reasons I list above. My younger son can (and has) kept a pair of Bauer Supreme 2S skates for 3 seasons. He doesn't sweat as much or tie his skates as tight.

These FT4 Pro's were baked and laced in store under staff direction. Did he tie too tight with the 'wrong' technique? Maybe... I have no other way to explain the end result. CCM's own directions don't specify a 'way' to tighten the skates (up vs. out) - it just says tie to 'normal' tightness, do not overtighten. Whatever that means to the individual.

 

[Sniper9 530]

15 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Check my posts. I've been playing myself for 40 years, two boys in their 20s one playing D3 the other JrA. I've repaired a bunch of gear myself from repalming a glove, to replacing eyelets with my own press, to stitching a shoulder cap on a pair of shoulder pads, to being a Sparx kickstarter early adopter. 

I'm not bullshitting - this is our own experience with CCM Jetspeeds. Overall positive, he loves the fit and performance, 7+ years from 2015 to present and 5 or 6 pairs of top end or 2nd tier CCM Jetspeed line. But eyelets have been the bane of the experience as they always failed early before the boot/holder - the irony is I thought the all brass FT4 Pro was the final solution to that. Then this happened!

For sure he's an outlier in terms of skate durability for several reasons I list above. My younger son can (and has) kept a pair of Bauer Supreme 2S skates for 3 seasons. He doesn't sweat as much or tie his skates as tight.

These FT4 Pro's were baked and laced in store under staff direction. Did he tie too tight with the 'wrong' technique? Maybe... I have no other way to explain the end result. CCM's own directions don't specify a 'way' to tighten the skates (up vs. out) - it just says tie to 'normal' tightness, do not overtighten. Whatever that means to the individual.

 

Ya the normal tightness is very subjective. But he obviously overtightened them. Really it's no ones fault. He should consider baking them like trues with shrink wrap. This way the mold with be tighter and the eyelets won't be stressed at all. He won't have to crank on the laces as much after the fact as there will be a better wrap overall. 

Imo the all brass eyelets are the solution to what he experienced with the stamped eyelets of the past. 

Also maybe your son should start paying for his own skates 😏. Unless he does and if so, I take that back. 

[colins 246]

5 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

Ya the normal tightness is very subjective. But he obviously overtightened them. Really it's no ones fault. He should consider baking them like trues with shrink wrap. This way the mold with be tighter and the eyelets won't be stressed at all. He won't have to crank on the laces as much after the fact as there will be a better wrap overall. 

Imo the all brass eyelets are the solution to what he experienced with the stamped eyelets of the past. 

Also maybe your son should start paying for his own skates 😏. Unless he does and if so, I take that back. 

 

Team provides them. I'm just looking for a solution so his FT2's (which are falling apart - toe cap stitching all gone and piece missing, eyelets failing) can be replaced with something he can rely on. Whatever mistakes were made need to be corrected, which is why I shared for input in the first place.

I have no way to tell how much they were heated (he wasn't told in store) and he said he tightened them "like I always do". So the chances right now of getting a replacement pair and ending up any better off are unknown at this point. Unless he goes to a different baking method altogether as you mentioned. I'm not sure if they store can do that for him or not. I don't want him to take them home to deal with baking himself.

[Sniper9 530]

38 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Team provides them. I'm just looking for a solution so his FT2's (which are falling apart - toe cap stitching all gone and piece missing, eyelets failing) can be replaced with something he can rely on. Whatever mistakes were made need to be corrected, which is why I shared for input in the first place.

I have no way to tell how much they were heated (he wasn't told in store) and he said he tightened them "like I always do". So the chances right now of getting a replacement pair and ending up any better off are unknown at this point. Unless he goes to a different baking method altogether as you mentioned. I'm not sure if they store can do that for him or not. I don't want him to take them home to deal with baking himself.

Is this store reputable?  There must be someone that works there that has experience and will bake and lace it up for him. 

[pgeorgan 77]

4 hours ago, colins said:

He baked and tied them in store under direction of the staff.

If this is the case, it's not "user error". It's UX.

CCM launches a product, prints out some general baking guidelines, store (roughly) follows them. This is the end result. 

What folks don't understand is, most end users of these products are just young kids going in willy-nilly to a store and walking out with whatever they think looks cool. They're not online researching gear or going to gear mod forums etc. 

They're not up-to-date on the latest uses of Saran Wrap bleeding edge baking technology. 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by pgeorgan

[218hockey 50]

Wow. I guess doing them on my own I would never bake at 220. But if that's what the manufacturer says.

[Sniper9 530]

32 minutes ago, 218hockey said:

Wow. I guess doing them on my own I would never bake at 220. But if that's what the manufacturer says.

Same. I'd personally do 190-200 max and maybe bake them twice instead if I needed to. 

[pgeorgan 77]

On 1/22/2023 at 2:23 AM, pgeorgan said:

When your recommended baking temp is 45 degrees hotter than the competition...

 

☝️

[noupf 42]

14 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Same. I'd personally do 190-200 max and maybe bake them twice instead if I needed to. 

 

19 hours ago, colins said:

 

Team provides them. I'm just looking for a solution so his FT2's (which are falling apart - toe cap stitching all gone and piece missing, eyelets failing) can be replaced with something he can rely on. Whatever mistakes were made need to be corrected, which is why I shared for input in the first place.

I have no way to tell how much they were heated (he wasn't told in store) and he said he tightened them "like I always do". So the chances right now of getting a replacement pair and ending up any better off are unknown at this point. Unless he goes to a different baking method altogether as you mentioned. I'm not sure if they store can do that for him or not. I don't want him to take them home to deal with baking himself.

I'd be curious to know if it happened on both skates or just one.  If just one, perhaps that one was left in the oven ( even if it was now off and cooling down, but still hot in there ) too long while he was lacing up the first skate and this is the result of an over baked skated and pulling way too hard on the laces when this second one came out of the oven last.

For reference, I took some advice on here and baked my 100K Pro CCM's at home.  Did it a couple times spread out over a few days at 180 or so in my oven for 4.5 minutes.  Pulled on the laces in an outward direction ( not upward ) at maybe 50% my normal tightness and sat on the couch for 15 min to let them cool ( I did not walk in them at all ).   I've now had my skates for over 3 months, skating twice a week as a decent men's league skater at 6'4 230 lbs and my eyelets look all but perfect.  I know some guys can really put a beating on their skates depending on their skating style, size and other issues like you mentioned, but i don't think we've seen anybody come on here and have an issue like this with the new ccm skates and their one piece design. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by noupf

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:56 PM, Sniper9 said:

Same. I'd personally do 190-200 max and maybe bake them twice instead if I needed to. 

I tend to bake my skates at least 3 times to speed up the break-in process. This is typically over the period of 3–5 weeks. Obviously, this varies by brand, as some tolerate baking better than others. 

[Sniper9 530]

7 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

I tend to bake my skates at least 3 times to speed up the break-in process. This is typically over the period of 3–5 weeks. Obviously, this varies by brand, as some tolerate baking better than others. 

Makes sense. First bake gives it a general initial wrap. After skating in them a few hrs, subsequent bakes really dials it in. 

[stick9 890]

Do you guys really think CCM put out baking instructions without checking the time and temps?? Come on guys, that basic engineering. They know better than that.

Looks to me like a textbook example of overbaking or pulling way to hard on the laces when warm.

[shoot_the_goalie 281]

On 2/1/2023 at 4:39 AM, stick9 said:

Do you guys really think CCM put out baking instructions without checking the time and temps?? Come on guys, that basic engineering. They know better than that.

Looks to me like a textbook example of overbaking or pulling way to hard on the laces when warm.

Ahh...I always appreciate your voice of reason Stick9.   CCM would not say 220 for 2 minutes if they didn't mean it.  Heck, it probably can handle more than that, but they need to still be on the safe side, otherwise everyone baking their skates would wreck them.

I have baked many a skate on my own (I use a convection oven and a temp gun to make sure the temp is accurate) and I've never pushed higher than 220 on temp (oven turned off before I put the skate in), but I have left the skates in for more than 2 mins on occasion (never longer than 4) and I've never had any problems to date.  I make sure to pull laces straight out, not over-crank them, and make sure the skate wearer doesn't move for 20 mins.

The OP pic looks like an over-bake and/or over tightening of laces.  And yes, just cause it's a LHS, doesn't mean the employee does it right all the time.  In fact, I have witnessed myself quite a few store employees (won't name the stores), that clearly pull up on the eyelets and/or tighten too hard, and I have also seen many kids of all different ages not stay still while the boot is still hot, literally flexing their ankles.  (I guess some people can't help themselves)

I also agree.  Use the warranty and just exchange them and then be there for the baking process.  As long as you're not a serial skate returner, you shouldn't have a problem with CCM customer service.

[colins 246]

 

To followup - the store is returning them and providing a new pair. So it seems the onus was on the baking process causing the eyelets to shift/pop when tightened in store.

They had limited selection for replacement given that the FT4 Pro is about to be replaced by the FT6. Tried on some AS V Pro and 100K to compare - found the AS V tapered to fit even better than the FT4 Pro Regular in the same size (Coming from an original Jetspeed D in the old sizing system - so no direct comparison) & bonus - the AS V Pro has more reinforcement around the eyelets on the facing, whereas the FT4 Pro has the eyelets stamped right into the composite material.

 

AS V Pro is a stiffer boot - we'll see how that works out once they get broken in.

Lesson learned - be careful how much heat/time is used in baking new 100% composite boots - the eyelets will shift if they are too hot.

 

 

 

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, colins said:

 

They had limited selection for replacement given that the FT4 Pro is about to be replaced by the FT6. Tried on some AS V Pro and 100K to compare - found the AS V tapered to fit even better than the FT4 Pro Regular in the same size (Coming from an original Jetspeed D in the old sizing system - so no direct comparison) & bonus - the AS V Pro has more reinforcement around the eyelets on the facing, whereas the FT4 Pro has the eyelets stamped right into the composite material.

 

 

I also wear a regular in 100K and FT4, but a tapered in the AS-V as well. It's the new last that the skates are being built on. I like it much better. 

FWIW, in the new FT6 Pro I wear a tapered and 0.5 sizes smaller in the retail model.