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DarkStar50

Rangers on Vesey Street

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Hopefully this is a domino-effect signing. The top 9 looks nice but the D core is still abysmal with Girardi and Staal playing big minutes.

Moving Nash while he still has some value would also be nice. 

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32 minutes ago, Buzz_LightBeer said:

Interesting to see how he plays. This saga has all the makings of a colossal flop. 

I think he'll be a nice player- something to the tune of 40-45 points in a middle six role if we're being conservative. 

My issue with the whole saga was to do with the level of coverage it was getting (granted its really been the only hockey news of late as August is a slow month) and his demand for what seemed like primadonna treatment with high profile players and non-athletes pitching him. You would think he was a Connor McDavid esque can't-miss generational talent given the hype, but that's obviously not the case here. 

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10 hours ago, Cavs019 said:

Hopefully this is a domino-effect signing. The top 9 looks nice but the D core is still abysmal with Girardi and Staal playing big minutes.

Moving Nash while he still has some value would also be nice. 

Nash still has value? I wish- he makes too much for doing too little (just like Staal and Girardi).

Signed,

NYR Supporter

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1 hour ago, Cosmic said:

Nash still has value? I wish- he makes too much for doing too little (just like Staal and Girardi).

Signed,

NYR Supporter

He only has two years left on his deal, whereas the wonder twins on the blueline are signed until what seems like 2075.

Nash with some money retained on the NYR side would be desirable to a lot of teams looking add depth scoring, so long as the return is decent. 

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1 hour ago, Cavs019 said:

He only has two years left on his deal, whereas the wonder twins on the blueline are signed until what seems like 2075.

Nash with some money retained on the NYR side would be desirable to a lot of teams looking add depth scoring, so long as the return is decent. 

Fair enough. I would be willing to trade Nash, Girardi, and Staal for nothing (no joke), and then just have that cap space cleared up to get FAs. NYR has depth, just needs to spend its big money (like $20 mil/ year to these 3) to better players IMO.

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29 minutes ago, Cosmic said:

Fair enough. I would be willing to trade Nash, Girardi, and Staal for nothing (no joke), and then just have that cap space cleared up to get FAs. NYR has depth, just needs to spend its big money (like $20 mil/ year to these 3) to better players IMO.

Agreed, but the issue is better players don't really hit the market these days and most of the true game-changing talent is locked up long term by the teams that drafted them. You really want a rapidly decling Andrew Ladd or Lucic for 6x6?

I'd also be open to them trading Lundqvist- he's not getting younger and they'd be able to get a nice haul for him and truly rebuild. Recent cup winners have proven that you basically need a goalie who doesn't "lose" you games to win, rather than a goalie who you have to rely on to win. 

They essentially chose to pay the wrong guys, which forced Stralman, Hagelin, and Yandle to walk. 

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1 minute ago, Cavs019 said:

Better players don't really hit the market these days. You really want a rapidly decling Andrew Ladd or Lucic for 6x6? 

They essentially chose to pay the wrong guys, which forced Strallman, Hagelin, and Yandle to walk. 

No way on Lucic/ Ladd. I was thinking having $$ available to lure Benn or Kopitar to explore. Great players do not hit the market, because perhaps teams that would want them are always capped out on guys who the orgs hope will help win now?

Regardless, I will take our haul (Vesey, Buchnevich, Zibenejad, Grabner, etc.) over Lucic/ Ladd any day.

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Before we count the Rangers out as dead a few things to consider...  On Nash each time he has had a bad season he has bounced back in a big way.  I don't like his game - he is too soft for a big guy and doesn't fight hard to get to the front of the net - but is is supremely talented, is a good skater and also plays a good 200 foot game.  Just saying, only one year removed from a 42 goal season don't count him out.  Girardi is one of my all time favorite Rangers and yeah, his best years are well behind him.  His shot blocking game has taken its toll.  But, and here is the reason or hope, he played last year with  cracked kneecap.  You try that!!!  It had to impede his mobility and now that he is healthy I have to think he will improve from last year.  Worth that money at this point - no.  But better - yes.  On Staal...  I don't know what the deal was with him.  Maybe it is his eye in which case we are screwed.  He did look pretty mobile though all year and made awful decisions.  Again, that might be the lack of vision in that eye.  I truly hope not because physically he has gas left in the tank to play at a high level.  More than Girardi does for sure.

As to losing Hagelin, Stralman and Yandle....  Hagelin wanted 3.5 million to play 3rd line.  Ain't gonna happen.  Tough to see him go but had to be done at that point.  The only reason he was as good as he was last season is because we was traded to Pitt and played on a line with Kessel and Malkin.  Fuck, I'd be good on that line!!  He is a great character player and really fast and great on the PK but he has a weak fluttering shot and isn't really a sniper of any sort.  Would I love him back, hell yeah, but not at that price.  On Stralman people forget the Rangers offered him the same contract the Tampa did.  He chose to leave because Florida has no income tax and he wanted to play with Cally and Boyle.  They, by the way, also forced their way out of NY after being offered very fair contracts.  No loyalty. Pisses me off.  Yandle was never going to be kept or re-signed.  AV doesn't like him.  That move was an unmitigated disaster.  DuClair has real talent and it was mistake to do this from the outset.  Pisses me off.

Now - back on topic to Vesey.  Here's the thing....  whatever he does is gravy.  He costs us nothing.  We get a high ceiling kid without losing picks when we have no freaking draft picks of our own (thanks Slats!).  If he goes 25G - 20A this year its a home rune.  If he gets 15 goals he's a good third liner who can grow into himself.  Regardless, even if he flops, we lose nothing.  

Good summer by Gorton.  Did the best he could and may still trade Nash and Fast for Shattenkirk.  That's be my move.  Or maybe Nash and Lindberg.  We pick up a mill or two.  Ok... home run for both teams.  Getting Vesey allows us to move one of those younger guys.

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Just a followup on Yandle/Duclair deal. Duclair was a quick problem in the locker room from Day 1/Year 1. Attitude trumps talent at the pro level when you are a rookie. Let your talent rise above your attitude and then there are no problems with veterans or management.

 

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I know they didn't like him - he is young and brash but to me that doesn't mean you give up on him at such a young age.  It compares to the Canadiens trading away Subban and makes me wonder if its ok to be brash and white and not ok to be brash and black.

Edited by dkmiller3356

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4 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

I know they didn't like him - he is young and brash but to me that doesn't mean you give up on him at such a young age.  It compares to the Canadiens trading away Subban and makes me wonder if its ok to be brash and white and not ok to be brash and black.

Brash lives matter?

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Full disclosure I am a big ranger fan.

With that being said you can't hate the vesey move. You put the vesey signing along with the Hayes signing and it puts a band aid on the going out of business sale approach the franchise has had with draft picks the past few years. As for the past decision making with other players let's be a little reasonable for a second...

 

Hagelin is a great glue player and a necessity for any team going for the cup DUH. The real reason the Rangers did not resign hi. Was because thy needed to prepare for contracts of players like Kreider Hayes and Miller who they valued higher. I can't say I disagree with that. The signing of grabner brings back a less talented Hagelin type at a more reasonable price.

As for Brian Boyle AV just did not value him and what he brought to the table which I thought was a huge mistake. It was evident that AV did not believe Boyle could thrive in his system. Had nothing to do with money.

Stralman was coming off a career year and the fact was they already had to much money invested in the defense with a back log of young defenseman ready to come up. What made matters worse was the Dan Boyle experience was an abomination and cost up Duclair. I never heard anything about them not liking Duclair I always believed that the Rangers thought they were one offensive defenseman away from the cup and the only player the Coyotes wanted was Duclair because of his success with Domi at the world juniors.

Say what you will but the Rangers are getting younger while also having the potential of being a strong playoff team. The rest of the off season is bound to help veterans like staal and girardi. Combine that with the influx of even more youth joining the team and this has the makings of a really fun season for the Rangers.

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On 8/21/2016 at 9:25 AM, dkmiller3356 said:

I know they didn't like him - he is young and brash but to me that doesn't mean you give up on him at such a young age.  It compares to the Canadiens trading away Subban and makes me wonder if its ok to be brash and white and not ok to be brash and black.

Ask Tyler Seguin.

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Keith Yandle has the second most PP points among defensemen the last 3 seasons, only behind Karlsson.  He's also 3rd in assists, and 5th in total points in that time.  Duclair may turn out be an elite player, but Yandle already is.  He's a near generational talent.  I believe that move might have been the best move they have made, sort of.

 

The problem with the Rangers is their management is, at the very least, reluctant to accept modern evaluating and value criteria.  All of the player decisions they have been made have been direct opposites of what should be done in the Cap & Corsi era.  Yandle is the best example.  They pay to get an elite player, who isn't washed up, with no long term plan to keep him.  Marc Staal has a LNMC that kicked in on July 1 last year.  Before that they could have moved him to anyone for anything without his approval.  So at the 2015 draft, they should have looked forward and realized they had too many LDs, plus Skjei coming up, and they couldn't afford to pay all of them.  They should have traded Staal for the best deal possible, before his NMC kicked in, just to get him off the books going forward.  They could have then signed Yandle to an extension with Staal's money, locking him up long term.  And then given Staal's slot and minutes to him also.  Without the cap, they could have just paid them all.  But with it, roster management becomes about value.  And the Rangers management values things incorrectly.  They valued Staal over Yandle, which is insanity.   Lundqvist is another example.  The guy is the best in the league.  He's carried this team on his back.  And that's the problem.  Teams need to be built to win without needing their goalie to carry them.  Goaltenders have become partially irrelevant.  They should have kept Talbot and moved Henrik last offseason.  It's not to say Talbot is better, or even as good.  He's not.  But with the two moves, the team may be better and get him the same results.  Make those 2 moves and you have Yandle, Talbot, whatever you got for Staal and Hank, and $7M in cap room right now.  Plus Talbot's ability to handle the puck helps the defense avoid the forecheck and exit the zone easier.   They're just a better team that way.

 

The Cally deal, just stupid.  Why are they giving away first round picks in that deal?  If Cally signed with Tampa, like he did, it should have been an even swap or maybe a 3rd going away.  If they couldn't find a deal to get a player back for nothing else, then they should have traded him for picks.  There's no reason to be sending first rounders in a comparable player-for-player swap.  Stralman is another.  They never even offered him a contract after the season ended.  They had spoken to Boyle's agent, and were going to get him, which would take all their RD spots.  So they had to choose between Girardi and Stralman.  Advanced metrics, VAR, and history would say you pick Stralman.  He had better possession numbers (one of the best on the team), was young, and would provide more production at a lower cap hit.  But they went with the "eye test" and picked the fan favorite, home grown Girardi because he was a "warrior".  Just Girardi's style of play and age should have been enough to pass on him.  You know that he was going to decline.  So what do they do?  Give him a max length contract.  And this goes on and - overvaluing home grown talent for one reason or another.  Kreider, Zuccarello, Stepan, all guys that could have their production replaced at a lower cost either by team prospects like Buchnevich or Miller, or through trades/free agency.  This would have a positive impact on the team because it would free up cap space and line slots for better or more effective players, allowing some more diversification of the lineup.  They could get 4 true lines rather than 3 lines full of 2nd line players, and a completely ineffective 4th line.

Edited by psulion22

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 "Kreider, Zuccarello, Stepan, all guys that could have their production replaced at a lower cost either by team prospects like Buchnevich or Miller, or through trades/free agency."

You were going good until this. Just my two cents, not counting against the cap either.

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35 minutes ago, DarkStar50 said:

 "Kreider, Zuccarello, Stepan, all guys that could have their production replaced at a lower cost either by team prospects like Buchnevich or Miller, or through trades/free agency."

You were going good until this. Just my two cents, not counting against the cap either.

I'm only talking in sheer Cap dollars - VAR.  All 3 guys are overpaid compared to other players with the same production.

 

Case in point, Kreider and Miller had almost exactly the same numbers across all categories.  Both guys were moved around the lineup, with Miller spending more time in the bottom 6.  I think he has more upside, and could be more productive when put into a better fitting role.  But Kreider makes nearly TWICE what Miller does.  Why?  What does Kreider bring that Miller doesn't?  Nothing.  They've consistently overvalued Kreider, and overpaid him as a result.  Having both guys, who give the same numbers is filling spots and putting players in places they aren't suited for - like Miller playing in the bottom 6.  They'd be better off trading Kreider for a true bottom 6 player, keeping Miller in the top 6, and saving over $2M of cap space in the process.  Stepan is important to the Rangers.  But he's ridiculously overpaid.  They just traded for Zibanejad, who has nearly identical numbers again.  Stepan makes MORE than double Z.  Why?  Yeah, he's a two way guy and all of that.  But it's not worth double.  They could have traded Stepan instead of Brassard, and saved $1.5M and had more production.  It's all about VAR.  The Rangers are terrible with it, the really good teams are not.

 

there's no way you can look at this list and say that too many Rangers players - especially Kreider and Stepan - aren't vastly over paid.  Zuccarello isn't bad, he has good production for his number.  But I think he turns the puck over too often because he holds it too long.  But that's not a value thing, so I'll remove him while he keeps his production up.  But Kreider makes MORE than Zuccarello.  That's absolutely laughable.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nhl/rankings/cap-hit/

 

 

Edited by psulion22

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The business of NHL hockey and the NHL game of hockey don't always add up. Is Brandon Saad worth his salary? Hell, are Kane or Toews worth their salary? Shea Weber? Phaneuf? I could make a long list. Players use arbitration, agents use other players salaries to value their player's next salary with. I'm not disputing your points. I just believe the business end and the game on ice don't always mesh.  

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Give me Hagelin over Kreider every day of the week and twice on Sunday. If you're looking for a guy to play the speed with no hands game, I'd prefer the guy who also has a brain.

Hagelin is an absolute menace on the PK (an area they were horrible in last year) and is much smarter about using his speed than Kreider is, who seems to have no lateral game and just skates north-south until he runs into something.  

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They do with the good teams, like Chicago.  Toews and Kane?  They're worth every penny.  Who can you get to replace either of those guys, even if money didn't matter?  No one.  There are only a handful of guys at their level.  Same with Weber.  But Saad isn't.  That's why Chicago traded him.  It wasn't his production.  It was his production in relation to his salary.  They are the gold standard when it comes to this.  Pay the guys who are irreplaceable - Kane, Toews, Keith - replace the guys when they get paid to much and you can get their production cheaper.  They don't care about fan favorites, or home grown players.  They care about value.  That's what it takes to win Cups.

 

Value Above Replacement (VAR) is paramount in the cap era.  It's not just about the salary number.  It's about what you are getting for the money vs what else you could get.  To maximize cap space, and therefore production, you have to make a point to not overpay guys in relation to other guys who can produce like them.  To win a Cup it takes clear pay and production tiers.  You have to have high paid elite talent that produces, young skill that produces but comes with a low cost, and low paid role players.  Pittsburgh has this, so do Chicago and San Jose.  LA had it but they are getting away from it as what were their younger guys aren't producing as much and getting paid more.  St Louis, Anaheim, Nashville are getting there.  The Rangers are built the wrong way.  They don't have much elite talent.  They don't have much young talent that is low paid and produces.  They have absolutely no production from their role players.  What they have is overpaid middling talent, and a goaltender that stands on his head.

 

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