Vet88

It's not the strength, it's the alignment. This muscle memory transfers over to playing games laced up. Red Dog hockey is also doing the same thing, it just takes a different approach.

The following is from the other side of the fence, something I doubt very few of you have ever seen. Pardon the length but it's relevant. Around a month ago I was at the rink training during a public skate (I adjust my work day so I can skate during the day). A family turned up, the 2 boys hopped on the ice. One of them came up to me and asked for some tips on how to skate. I took one look at how he was standing and thought hmm, this could be interesting. He was from New Caledonia and on holiday visiting our country, ice skating was on the bucket list. He had never skated / skateboard / ski in anything before yet there he stood in crappy plastic / no edge / blunt rink rentals and he was balanced perfectly over the skates. 1 hour later and he could: cross over both sides, 2 foot stop both sides, had an outside edge on corners (the first time I showed him his outside edge he got so deep he fell into it and to the ice) and we were working on his backward crossovers when he had to go. This kid was skating dna on steroids. It didn't matter what I showed him, he got it immediately. To him it was as natural as walking. If I could have signed him up I would have on the spot. He was skating better in one hour than other skaters I know who have been skating for years. Why? Because he was perfectly aligned over the skates blades. It wasn't his skates, it wasn't his strength, it wasn't his skating skill set, it was all down to how naturally he was aligned and balanced over the skate blades. Very rarely do you see someone like this and I have coached thousands of skaters over the years. So the next time you go for a skate in your 2S Pros or you are having a debate as to which stiffness of skate you should buy, have a think about about where your skating ability really sits. As I said in my first post, it's not about the skate.....

No, you wouldn't skate unlaced in a game. If you read my comments, I have always said that skating laced up provides more support and allows you to skate better. Boot stiffness is part of this. To reiterate - why train laces undone? Primarily balance, to develop your balance over the skate blade at ALL times, for every move you make - ergo deeper edges, tighter turns. Get this right and then you get maximum power into the blade - ergo more speed. You also build a broader muscle memory set, this allows you to control the skate better thru any type of position or play you may get involved in.

Prior to this research I am in I'd have agreed with you. Recently we added an observation test because of a request from a podiatrist. It's an observation only with very limited parameters but I think what it alludes to is important enough to be explored in it's own. What he wanted to see was what impact the muscle training had on skates that had holders in a different position to the control skate. 5 of us skated in a blind test with no laces (straight line one and two foot glides only that were measured with video analysis) using a range of skates from CCM and Bauer that had been randomly selected. The instant we stood on the ice we could immediately tell if the holder deviated left or right from our control skate, regardless of brand of skate we were in. Laser measurement of the skate then confirmed the observations. However the most pertinent observation was that the longer we spent in the skate the less the holder deviation mattered, until after around 20 minutes of skating you basically forgot about it. Note that holder deviation was less than 2mm to either side. In a nutshell - the podiatrist proposed that because there is no boot support, the holder alignment - to a point - isn't as critical for body alignment. With the ability for the foot and ankle to adapt to the holder position, this reduces the knee and hip deviation from the center line. The video analysis supported this. This is an observation only, it requires a proper project to evaluate it correctly but based on our experience so far I do not disagree with his theory. If you train with laces undone the holder position becomes less important, the critical component is the activation of your muscle groups to control the skate blade without any boot support. I'd like to take this further. For skaters that have medium to severe pronation, I'd like to test the impact on moving the holder outward, not inward. What happens to the muscle groups when an unlaced skater is forced to over compensate, how the range of holder deviation impacts on alignment, how does it change the foot structure and muscle strength, changes to knee and hip alignment etc etc. But this is for another day and another project. Ideally the holder position would always be centered for a skater (sorry CCM and Bauer but I think there is something really amiss in your manufacturing process when it seems every skate you make has the holder in a different position relative to the center line of the skate) but for most people and LHS's / online stores this is just a dream with how skates are currently made. However skating with laces undone does appear to allow the body to compensate for holder alignment to a degree.

Try this - lace up and go for a skate and concentrate on what your feet are telling you. My bet is it is bugger all, you aren't getting any feedback from the blade and the way it is working under your foot. Now go for a skate with your laces undone, every little twist, edge, catch in the ice is felt. We are genetically designed to do anything as energy efficient as we possibly can BUT... the brain has to know what is going on so it can work out how to be energy efficient. Laced up and you are still skating so the brain thinks this is ok, the only thing it's got to compare with is how you walk and run, it knows no different. Unlaced and now your muscles are having to work to not only control your balance over the blade but also how you put power INTO the blade - this part is really important. Maximum transfer of energy without the crutch of the boot. Your foot can't fold, you will feel it immediately. Your alignment straightens up, it has to as your brain demands it because it now knows what it is costing you to skate unbalanced over the blade. I skate every day, 1 - 2 hours a day (and always with no laces) so it's hard for me to give a figure for someone who skates once or twice a week. But skaters I have coached show literally immediate results during a single lesson. Yes, you are skating slow but the way you start balancing over the blade is immediately noticeable. That wobble is important, your brain is now working out how to use your muscles in the most efficient manner to control the edge. Every time you skate you are improving. Video yourself, especially from front or behind so you can see how your blade starts to straighten up under your foot. For those who are fortunate to have skating dna then this will be just a tune up but for the other 95% of the population out there (that is the number who pronate / supinate / have alignment issues) then this becomes a revelation. there is always something in the way you skate that needs improving and skating with laces undone brutally exposes it. For me one of the key things about this is it isn't dependent on the skate you are in, a coach who is training you or even how long you have skated. It's all about you, your body alignment and how well you can control the skate blade. Teach yourself with built in auto correction (your brain).

When I started I was slow as hell, any attempt to stride out caused my heel to lift. I used to lace all the way up for games. Over time the way my feet worked in the boot changed and my push became much smoother, harder and flatter and my heel stopped lifting. I now prefer to skate laces untied over laced up, as others have commented it becomes about as natural as walking. Performance wise it's been bloody hard, pushing hard and feeling your ankles collapse under you is really really frustrating but over time my ankle has got stronger and my control of the blade has improved to the point I can now go flat out with no laces and no thoughts about heel lock etc The 4 eyelets lock my forefoot into place, provides a little more stability and is game compliant (once I managed to get the national head ref controller to approve it). But I do wear skate fenders, the space where the tongue lifts out of the boot and leaves the foot exposed is not something I will risk in a game..

And I had this discussion a while ago with other coaches at a seminar. It's not in US LTP programme, we have never heard about it, that's not what I was taught etc etc are the excuses. Me - Why are you telling the to tie their laces tight? Reply - Oh, because it makes them more stable. Me - Yes - but it doesn't fix the problem..... Yet ask them about a skater who drops 1 eyelet. this is perfectly acceptable. What about a skater who drops 2? Or 3? Or 4? When does this become "I've never heard of that"? Tell that to the young elite NHL skaters coming thru atm and are dropping eyelets. Bottom line is you either give it a go or not, I'm not trying to sell anyone snake oil here or ask you to sign up for a service or training programme or try to take your money. It's free advice based on hard experience and been involved in a (so far) 3 year long varsity research project looking into specifically this issue. And this is the consistent thing, the deniers are those who have NEVER tried it yet everyone who I have had try it (from beginner to experienced) has never said it didn't help..The degrees of improvement are based on your bio mechanics..

Yes, it's a training technique, not a game situation. Putting aside the safety risk, IIHF rules state you must have laces but you can tie them in any manner you want (this includes how many eyelets you may want to lace up, I only do the bottom 4 now for games). When you first start you may feel like your skates are going to come off, especially when you try to accelerate (heel is lifting out of the pocket). However over time your body learns to readjust and stop doing "walking / running" motions with the feet and do ice skating specific motions. Your skating becomes much more smoother. I often train with skates 2 sizes too big for me (no heel lock, very sloppy fit) and no laces, specifically for proprioception training, it's all in the stride.

And you touch on a valid point. Ask someone who has never had a problem in their skates about pronation or feet that don't feel right in the skates or why I can't stop on one side etc etc and 99% of the time they just look at you blankly. They can't understand why you have issues. As the saying goes, "what you don't know you don't know".It's just your skates, you need to skate more, you need a deeper hollow and so it goes Lets look at a another sport, running. There is a huge industry built around addressing your bio mechanics as you run, even for the casual runner of once or twice a week. Most decent shops that sell running shoes will offer a gait analysis process in store and suggest fixes such as orthotics or different shoes to what you were looking at / using. Ice skates are much more complex yet what does the ice hockey world do about this? Zilch. Except those who actually know it is problem (@OldTrainerGuy and the work he does to make sure the skates you have purchased will work for you). It's a general industry problem and if it doesn't get addressed when you purchase the skates you carry on blissfully unaware of the issue until it begins to bite you in the ass with lace bite, sore feet, bunions, bumps, etc and why you still suck at skating 2 years later yet the guy next to you who started at the same time is light years ahead of you.....

I'm a level 2 certified coach, been coaching ice and inline for 15 years. But I didn't invent this, other much better qualified coaches than me have done this. For example look at this . Wally Kozak is one of the most respected coaches out there.

I never said irrelevant, I said it is secondary. Bio mechanics should be the first and most important consideration because if you don't get that correct you will never be able to control the skate correctly. And laces undone is hard, I won't deny it. But getting your holder alignment correct isn't a physically hard thing to do and any age can do it, it's skate related not age. This is the problem with hockey and attitudes like this, bio mechanics don't really matter / are something I might fix later. This is just bs. Racing slicks on a prius is like your hollow on a skate, driving a prius blindfolded is more akin to not addressing your bio mechanics.

I put it like this - when are you making the most mistakes? When you are learning. Training, regardless of the frequency, is pointless if all you are doing is repeating the same mistakes over and over again. If the skater is unbalanced at the start, extra stiff skates, more training etc does not address this, at least in a quick time frame. Sure, skate for 10 years and you will slowly improve. Or you can fix your alignment issues and start to skate better from the beginning. As to figure and speed and any half decent skating teacher, they should haul your ass of the ice immediately and start fixing your alignment with holder movement / shimming if they look at you and see you aren't aligned over your skates. Both figure and speed worked this out years ago, hockey tried with MLX then it got buried. And from many other posts in this forum and others, skaters have commented about going to camps run by ex NHL players and other qualified trainers and them asking players to undo their laces. It doesn't make things worse, it just makes it harder until you learn to control your muscles. Ironically those who pronate really badly get the most benefit instantly because of the feedback they start to get from their feet with laces undone as opposed to the quasi ski boot approach and lace up as tight as you can. Been there, done that, coached and seen dozens of skaters instantly improve with it.

If you had asked me this 3 years ago I'd have said this is true. But today imho it's all opinionated bs, just like my comments following. Let me put this out there - IT'S NOT THE SKATE. It's you and your bio mechanics. It's as simple as this even though bio mechanics in skates is a complex issue. If your bio mechanics are correct you can skate in anything - even clods with a frame bolted to them. Stiffness, heel lock, volume, length, forefoot width, profile, hollow etc are all secondary, you don't need this to be anywhere near perfect to skate well. What you need is good body alignment over the skate blade. Yes, stiffer skates will generally help you to skate a little better but they will not TEACH you to skate better. If you want to skate better fix your bio mechanics first, make sure the holder is aligned central to your foot / ankle / knee / hip alignment. Then shim for ankle / knee / hip deviation. This is the quick fix but it comes with some issues, especially for beginning skaters and how their body adapts to skating over time. Or learn to skate with your laces undone, stop using the boot as a crutch / excuse and teach yourself how to balance over the blade. Even holder alignment becomes less important. Add in strength work for legs and core and then you wont care what skate you are in as long as it is comfortable on your foot. Age, sex, size, weight, skating experience and equipment are irrelevant, anyone can learn to do this. Downside is you have to put in the time and effort and it is a long term development, upside is that over time you create the base to become the best skater you can possibly be.

Eyelet extenders, these are the fix for volume issues if everything else about the boot is ok. It's not hard to make your own especially if you want single or 2 hole extenders. Otherwise there are 3 hole ones you can buy.

Have a watch of this, it's long at an hour and 22 but there are some real nuggets of knowledge in it.

I think he uses blademaster eyelets. I used stainless steel or high quality brass because they withstand human sweat really well but they are expensive. Suppliers are ship chandelers, outdoor tent suppliers or search for stainless steel grommets online.

These, best girdles ever made imho: https://www.thehockeyshop.com/products/ccm-9k-pro-senior-hockey-girdle?variant=14035494633538 If the sizing is the same as the 9k Rbk girdle then in general you need a 1/2 size up, a Bauer medium pant fits me well whereas a 9k medium girdle is very snug fitting (but it does loosen up over time to be an excellent fit). Downside is there is no cup holder, I wear NFL compression shorts for the extra hip protection and this is my cup holder. And they are super protective but you trade this off for weight, they are heavier than any other girdle. And expensive but you pay for what you get.

It would work for one cross over, start inside out and finish outside in. So if you had problems at one specific cross over then you could get some help with this technique. But as I have always found out, it isn't just one, it is generally 2 or 3 cross overs that cumulatively add to the problem. Besides the one cross over example above, it is basically the same either way. You either have the pressure thru the first 3/4 of the cross over (outside in) or the last 3/4 of the cross over (inside out). Regardless of how you do it it will still be cranking down across the center of the tongue.

I tried lots of different types and thicknesses, in the end settled for 4mm thick as that seemed to provide the best balance between durability and flexibilty. I had plenty of thinner leather stretch and rip over time but the 4mm thick never had any issues.

+1 for these, I have used them on other skates to alleviate lace bite. Downside is they are getting harder to get (my understanding is they are not made anymore) and they break with puck impacts and over time. If you go this route get a few pairs so you have spares..

I have never heard of a LHS stocking them as they seem to be considered a niche item, somebody correct me if I am wrong. Buy them online from here http://greatsaves.org/skate_lace_extenders.html and you can fit them yourself.

I make my own using 5mm thick leather offcuts (eg from belt manufacturers) and stainless steel grommets (anything else has corroded on me as I sweat a lot). Can send you details if you want to make your own. But the best commercial ones I have seen and know they work well are those from greatsaves - http://greatsaves.org/skate_lace_extenders.html made from leather instead of plastic.

Dealt with this all my life and helped many skaters thru it. The clinic most likely put you into a stance you are not normally in ie a little deeper in your stance. This extra pressure could have been the trigger point that caused your lace bite to elevate itself to a noticeable point. Lace bite generally doesn't happen immediately, it's micro trauma happening on the tendon and in between skates your body is trying to heal it. Time on ice, pressure on tendon, age, recovery capability are just some of the factors that determine how you get it and react to it. If you are getting it during the class it tells me that you are borderline lacebite the rest of the time ie enough pressure to have it happening but your body is just managing to keep it under control. How to fix it:- Bottom line is you have to get the pressure OFF the tendon, this is the most important thing to do for your long term skating health. Lacebite pads, unless they have a channel cut in them for the tendon to sit in, are a waste of time. The options I know that work are: 1: Option B laces. 2: Forsberg pads, downside is you have to tape them to the front of your ankle every time you skate. Make your own from 1/2" pipe insulation. 3: Boots that have enough volume. 4: A new tongue may help if it increases the volume in the boot (ie a thinner tongue) or if the tongue has broken down. 5: Drop eyelets or skate with laces untied 6: Eyelet extenders. the last option is the one I recommend to skaters, it is cheap, effective and you can use them on any skate. Now you can choose the skate that fit you the best everywhere else (retail skates) and then fix any volume issue.:

+1 for this, I got exactly the same guidance at a ref course from the guy who was the head ref for the Canadian junior league. And you can practice this as you ref games. Pick any point in a game and pick a player, then at the start of the next play recall the number and colour. As you keep at it you get much better so that it starts to become second nature. Then add the supposed penalty call so you get all the elements together.

Unless you have volume issues and or lace bite. Then, outside of customs, it's one of the few things that will keep you in your skates. http://greatsaves.org/skate_lace_extenders.html