Vet88

Been there, done that and have been embedded in a University research project for the last few years studying this very subject. To reinforce a couple of your points and some new ones:- 1: Tying your laces as tight as you can / in different patterns, different tightness etc etc does NOT fix your pronation. The foot will still roll / want to roll in the boot REGARDLESS of how you tie the laces. 2: A perfect fitting boot does NOT fix your pronation. The foot will still roll / want to roll in the boot REGARDLESS of how well fitting the boot is. It will straighten your ankles, depending on how stiff the sidewalls of the boot are, but over time that pressure from the inward ankle roll will eventually force the boot to open up. 3: Sorry to say this but orthotics do NOT fix pronation in hockey skates, all they do is empty your wallet faster. This is just simple physics, there is nothing under the foot to allow the orthotic to lever against but hey, a podiatrist isn't going to tell you that when they are trying to sell you a service. For ambulating on a flat surface, surgery will help but it is very debatable if it will work for hockey skates (and this from 2 consulting podiatrists who specialise in this surgery). Pronation is not just a foot issue, it is also an alignment issue that includes other joints (ankle, knee, hip, back) and surgery (calf muscle release and limiting the inward deflection of the subtalar joint) doesn't fix everything else. Moving the holder inwards or shimming the holder is one approach to address pronation, I'm surprised your figure skating coach didn't recommend this. However I don't favor this approach and prefer to address pronation as you have done, strengthening the foot / ankle / leg and dropping eyelets. This latter point is key as it also help to strengthen the foot / ankle / leg. Don't just drop one eyelet, keep going (one row at a time) until you can eventually skate with your laces untied (or at least 4 or 5 eyelets down). This forces you to use your foot / ankle / leg muscles to balance you over the top of the blade, now it's not the skate that is holding you up but you. But I do realise this takes a lot of time and practice and for a lot of people they just don't have the time or desire so a holder shift / shim is the preferred option for a quicker fix. I used to have sever pronation in both feet and had to always tape up my feet to deal with bunions, corns, heel bumps etc etc when skating. Then I took my laces out of my skates and haven't looked back. My pronation is now marginal, within normal foot range. Everyone else involved in the research project (who learnt to skate with no laces) has had similar results.

This is the bit that I'd be concerned about the most. They are customs and I am struggling to understand why you would live with this unless you deliberately want the skates to be this big (ie for a longer holder)?

+1 for this, I got exactly the same guidance at a ref course from the guy who was the head ref for the Canadian junior league. And you can practice this as you ref games. Pick any point in a game and pick a player, then at the start of the next play recall the number and colour. As you keep at it you get much better so that it starts to become second nature. Then add the supposed penalty call so you get all the elements together.

Thanks, it would be nice to see the research behind it. It's not an invalid approach, shim the boot and or move the holder, figure skaters have done it for years but ice hockey have buried their heads in the sand about this. If RDH are providing a solution for hockey players then that can only be for the good. For established and professional players an alignment adjustment can make a significant difference immediately and as they have to skate at their best every day, anything else can be a threat to their earning potential. This is why the research we are doing isn't really positioned towards established players but at developing skaters with bio mechanical issues and how learning to skate without laces can significantly address these issues for the long term beneficial health and performance of the skater.

I believe it's a series of cupped heel wedges (think the heel section of a superfoot) at different angles. So it tries to reshape the ankle (particularly the subtalar joint) to give you a better bio mechanical alignment. So it's like shimming the outside of the skate but you can do it internally with a removable piece. Personally I don't agree with this approach, bio mechanical alignment is a lot more complex than a reshaped ankle, the whole leg is involved and often the back. Whilst it does alter the biomechanical alignment and can help, it impacts on how the skater can get onto their outside edge and it throws the knee outwards which can lead to additional stresses thru the knee ie long term ligament issues. Note - I have no clinical research to support this statement but we did model it with alignment testing as part of the ongoing research thesis I'm involved in and all the orthopedic consultants agreed that, for ice hockey and anything more than a very very mild adjustment, it was not an ideal solution. Note, if it's a raised heel lift with different heights then this is different to a side to side angular heel lift trying to fix things like pronation etc.

Unless you have volume issues and or lace bite. Then, outside of customs, it's one of the few things that will keep you in your skates. http://greatsaves.org/skate_lace_extenders.html

You need to talk to the LHS and work with them. Take physical measurements of your foot then compare this to the scan data AND the additional comments / info the LHS sent to True. If this all correlates then the LHS need to ask True why the boot differs from the info supplied. Work out how much longer / shorter the boot should be, where it needs to be narrower / deeper, cut differently etc etc. I have seen cases where True have misinterpreted the LHS supplied data and made the boot wrong. Mistakes happen, it's a fact of life. And I'll say it again - Both at the scan / measuring stage and at the boot fitting stage, it's really important to have a fitter who knows his stuff. This will reduce the chance of errors when they are made and to recognise that the boot isn't right at fitting time and to provide the assistance you need to get it fixed. 6 months down the track and they are still tinkering with the boot to try and get it to work, that isn't a good recommendation of the LHS imho.

There are a lot of examples where the skate has been made wrong because the scan data was either wrong or interpreted incorrectly (a lot of this does depend on the skill of the fitter, the better they are the better the chance of True getting it right). In all of the cases that I know of True have remade the skate using feedback from what is wrong with the current one to ensure the remake is correct. On the odd occasion this hasn't worked but generally the 2nd time around they get it right.

Wouldn't be the same LHS that said you needed to be in a Nexus??? After 25 hours I don't know how much more give you would expect out of a low end boot, I think you need to be exploring other things. And I can understand your reluctance on customs, there is no guarantee atm that a custom would stop your foot pain if the cause is a muscular issue. As it's across all your boots, you might want to consider a pitch change to try and shift your balance a little further back towards the heel. And it seems a looser lace helps, try to go for a couple of laps with your laces untied, I won't deny it's hard but it would help to determine your balance over the blade, your weight distribution and remove any pressure across the forefoot. If you have pain during this skate I'd consider seeing a foot specialist to see if you have any weaknesses / impingement's in the forefoot / arch that are only evident when in skates and moving.

Unless you go custom or you can find a pair of high volume grafs, Nexus is it. And if you add in a narrowish heel then you are like a small percentage of us, sool. However you can address the volume issue various ways, a common fix is to use eyelet extenders, these increase the wrap of the boot.

And you are cranking down on 3 eyelets that are volume tight on you??? Try tying this area loose using the 2 laces method I suggested (or even 3 laces, tight/loose/tight), just to see if a looser tie will help. My call on the info you have supplied is that the skate doesn't quite fit you properly and as you crank extra tight thru the middle they are compressing something in your foot leading to the pain. If this is the case no orthotic in the world is going to help. As to the cracking, this isn't something I have heard before but possibly it's something from Bauer specifically. Maybe @JR Boucicaut or @Nicholas G or @oldtrainerguy28 or others in the retail game can comment on this but I talked to our LHS (who is the sole Bauer distributor in our country) and they reckon its bs. Bulging because of pressure or poor fit is common, post a pic of your boot with the bulge, again I think it's an incorrect fit.

If you think it's a volume issue / tied to tight across the forefoot you can try a 2 lace skate. Get a lace that will go through the first 6 eyelets (from the bottom upwards) and tie it very very loose. Then with a second lace tie the top 3 eyelets nice and snug. This will give you the ankle support you are used to yet you should have very little pressure on the forefoot area and still be able to skate. You can also do the pencil test for volume, this is a general guide to how the skate fits your foot for volume. With your foot in the boot and the tongue pulled out, get a pencil and place it across the eyelets. If your foot is hitting the pencil the volume is marginal. If your foot raises the pencil above the eyelets then the boot is on the small side volume wise. After you take your skates off are there any red areas on your foot, these indicate pressure points from the boot? You have custom insoles, was this for flat feet or some other foot issue?

Yes, your weight distribution on skates at home on the carpet is very different to when you skate on the ice / inline. It's why I asked if you could try with a couple of eyelets dropped, if you are distributing too much weight on the inside edge whilst skating this can stress various muscles / tendons in the sole of the foot. Skating with eyelets dropped will highlight this for you (you will know if your foot is rolling inwards in the skate as you skate along) as well as reducing any potential compression issues. Again, not asking you to skate hard, just a gentle straight line skate and anyone, even beginners, can do this. Do you curl your toes up at all when you skate? Standing around in skates doesn't bother you and once you get to the bench and stop skating the pain eases so I'd be looking at stride mechanics and what is happening to your feet in the boot as you skate,

You say you have no problems off ice after a skate, this tends to discount plantar fascitiis. And if you can stand in them for 30 minutes, even though it is stationary, with no pain then fit and arch support seems ok. Has this happened since the very first time you put skates on? If you rest for a few weeks and then go for a skate, is the pain the same? I don't think anyone here can give you an answer without seeing you, evaluating foot / body structure and gait and possibly seeing how you skate. However we might be able to suggest somethings that might help to narrow the cause of the problem down. What happens if you go for a very GENTLE skate for 30 minutes, no hard pushing, crossovers or turns, just straight line gliding and slow gentle turns (pushing just hard enough to keep moving at a very gentle pace)? And I don't know if you do it but try not to push with the toes, just the mid to heel portion of the blade only with no toe kick. You may not want to do this but I'd also suggest you try a skate with your laces undone or at least with 2 or 3 eyelets undone. Again, a very gentle skate of straight line gliding. I'd ask this because I would want to see if the fact of lacing your boot up is causing any impaired plantar flexion performance during your stride.

where in the foot do you get the pain?

The one thing this does, as I'm sure you now realise, how long you have been skating counts for very little, it's all about how well your muscles can control the skate. That 2 hours practice is the key, lots of one foot balance drills front and backwards. Power will come later, at the start it's all about balance and muscle control. As an aside, I always recommend you do a vid of when you start and then at regular intervals, seeing the improvement helps a lot.

It really depends on 2 things, how bad any issues you have are (ie degree of pronation, knee alignment, hip alignment etc) and how much time and effort you put in. I've had players start at 3 down and after about 10 minutes of skating were comfortable (but they had great alignment to begin with) and others who went one down and it took 6 months before they felt they could drop another. What you have to remember is that you are basically learning how to walk again but this time you are balanced over an 1/8" wide bit of steel. Your brain has to work this out and if it is having to deal with alignment issues at the same time then the whole thing just got a lot more complicated. However in general if you can spend say 30 minutes each skate and do this twice a week you should see good improvements over 3 months. You can tell yourself how well you are tracking, every time you get on the ice you get to a point where you start to feel you are getting the hang of it. The first time you try it this may be never in the session but 4 weeks later you start to feel at the end of the session that things are getting easier. Then after 3 months you are hopping on the ice and after about 10 minutes it begins to feel good. This time keeps dropping the more you practice until eventually you step on the ice and it's as natural as if you have laced all the way up. And then you drop another eyelet and it starts all over again.... Don't despair, every time it feels hard you are getting better regardless of how many eyelets you are down. This is the thing about it, every skate is making you better and improving your technique. I have had beginners say to me they want to learn to skate first before they start this. This is the wrong approach, if you are learning how to skate now then this is the time you should be dropping eyelets. Learn correctly from the start, don't develop bad technique.

Dropping eyelets I find it's best to take the lace out of the eyelet, this allows you to tie up and still get some support from the boot whilst gradually introducing you to less support from the boot. The extra lace is a pia, big bow ties, a loose wrap around the ankle or tucking the extra lace under the tied laces are some ways of dealing with it. Or as I suggested use 2 laces once you start to get 3 or 4 eyelets down, this way you can tie up and leave the top lace in but just really loose. I won't deny it, laces are a hassle but sometimes good things just take time and effort🙂 Congrats on giving it a go, you won't believe how many players wont even stand up in their skates with the laces undone let alone skate in them but the benefits are just so huge. 1 minute is a start, just keep at it and I guarantee you will get more comfortable and better at it which will improve your overall skating.

To start with I always suggest this to my students, start by dropping 1 eyelet. If that feels like it doesn't make much difference drop another eyelet. Keep dropping eyelets until you find it has become much harder and different to skate (normally this starts around 3 down). Now go and skate as you normally would but taking it easy at first until your muscle memory begins to change to support you. As soon as you start to feel comfortable / getting the hang of this then drop another eyelet and start the process all over again. Doing it this way allows you to progressively build towards a totally unlaced skate whilst still skating at a level that is near to where you currently are. The big change really starts when you get to the 4th and 5th eyelet down, at this point all the support the boot gives the ankle basically disappears and things begin to get really interesting. Or you can just not tie your laces and jump into the deep end. I have had players do this as they have wanted to step up to the challenge from day 1. This is rather brutal and a big eye opener of how you skate. It hides nothing and suddenly you realise how bad your technique is if you have any flaws. Your feet will seem to collapse on everything you do and be prepared to fall / stumble a lot until you start to improve. If you do go this way ffs take it slow and easy until you get used to it. Just as Benbreg said, start slowly with simple straight line skating and also do one foot balance drills in a straight line. then add turns then cross overs etc etc as you begin to rebuild your skating skill set and muscle memory. If the only chance you get to skate like this is before a game then you could try using 2 laces in your boot. 1 to lace up to whatever eyelet you are at and another lace that is thru the rest of the eyelets but undone when you jump on the ice (if you are only 1 or 2 eyelets down its most probably just as easy to use 1 lace and then lace fully up when the game starts). After a while you can then try with just laces loose,

Not only will it dramatically improve but if you keep at it and even try getting to the final stage of skating with no laces or at least the first 4 eyelets dropped (this is for training, not game time), your pronation in skates will eventually disappear. Deep deep power turns take more effort and training to stop the foot collapsing inwards but for skating in a straight line, stopping, transitioning etc (ie 99% of your skating) you will skate neutrally aligned aka directly over the top of the blade with your ankle, knee, hip etc correctly aligned. It's not as easy as shifting the holder or shimming but it is the ONLY way you can properly fix pronation in skates. ps - do a lot of one foot backward skating, particularly inside edge work. Because you are more on your toes with less heel support the leg has to work harder to stop the pronation. Pronation is not just about the foot, the entire leg is involved. Skating backwards places more stress on the arch, side stability muscles of the ankle and achillies and the upper outside hip muscles a lot more than forward skating.

Do goalie boots come with shot blockers built in? If you added these (as you can add them to player boots I assume you could add them to goalie boots) then they would beef up the boot considerably.

https://hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bob-Duff/Kronwall-Debuts-Innovative-Skate-Blade/216/95256

Interesting as I'm one of these customers. Durability? I gather you would liberally paint it on so you get full penetration into the eyelet?

I'm fascinated as to how you reconcile "Kronwell wears them" and "not allowed in the NHL"? And pray tell what it is in health and safety that makes these a risk? afaik they have passed approval to be worn in the NHL, I am sure Per will clarify if that is not the situation.

If you can resolve it that would be much appreciated, thank you for your response.