Why do guys with half shields get mad

[eric42434224 1]

Caveat: I wear a cage. I keep my stick down, and havent been called for high sticking. I play hard but with respect in an adult league.

I personally feel that the seatbelt analogy is quite a good one. You should wear a seatbelt when operating a motor vehicle. It is common sense.

-Should every other driver obey all the rules of the road, and always be aware and courteous? Yes.

-Are there drivers who dont and put other drivers safety at risk? Yes.

-Are a large number of these bad drivers young? Yes.

-Are there young drivers that obey the rules, are aware, and are courteous? Yes.

-Should you assume that all drivers will be safe, aware, and courteous? No.

-Will there be accidents from good and bad drivers? Yes.

-Can you blame bad drivers for causing you to be in an accident? Yes.

-Can you blame those drivers for your personal choice of wearing no seatbelt and not mitigating the severity of your injury? Absolutely not.

Here it is with Hockey:

-Should every other player obey all the rules of the game, and always be aware and courteous? Yes.

-Are there players who dont and put other players safety at risk? Yes.

-Are a large number of these bad drivers cage wearers? Yes.

-Are there cage wearers that obey the rules, are aware, and are courteous? Yes.

-Should you assume that all players will be safe, aware, and courteous? No.

-Will there be accidents from non-cage and cage wearing player? Yes.

-Can you blame cage wearers (or any player) for causing you an injury? Yes.

-Can you blame those drivers for your personal choice of wearing no, or limited face protection and not mitigating the severity of your injury? Absolutely not.

It seems pretty simple and logical to me.

[tareatingrat 4]

Well, the point of the thread is whether you should bitch if you get caught with a high stick when wearing a visor.

I'm still strongly of the opinion that if you get hurt, you really don't have much to say because you had the option of protecting yourself.

I mean it is still a penalty. People should keep their sticks down. I don't think anybody is debating that. Fact is, it happens. This thread is proof that there are people who are either careless or irresponsible everywhere. Knowing that, you choose not to wear adequate facial protection.

It just seems that people wearing visors or nothing are placing blame when they get hurt. I'm not saying it's acceptable to skate around with your stick up (and it's just stupid when you're playing hockey anyway...kind of hard to score when your stick isn't on the ice), but it happens and it happens a lot; give me one good reason why you shouldn't protect yourself.

Have whatever preconceived notions you want about me wearing my cage. I enjoy my vision, and don't want to have to eat my steak in smoothie form.

[eric42434224 1]

I think it is not about blame for the incident. High sticks will happen regardless. It is about mitigating the chance/severity of injury. You can get upset at someone who hit you recklessly in the head. I know I do. But I wear a cage, and I suffer no injury. If you get injured as a result of the play, you have yourself partially to blame for not protecting yourself.

[usahockey22 0]

At the pickup sessions I go to, had I not been wearing a cage, I'd probably be out several teeth and maybe an eye by now. I get whacked in the cage all the time, and give guys hell when it happens...it's exactly why I won't be switching to a visor anytime soon. Of course, anyone getting hit to the head with a careless stick, visor or no visor, has a right to be mad. But if you are playing without full facial protection, you know the increased risk, just like you know the risk when you drive a car without your seatbelt on...like I said earlier, there are two people to blame if you get whacked in the face playing hockey and don't have the protection there.

[hamstercaster 2]

I've done it all, helmet only, half visor, full cage, you name it. The day I saw I think was Bryan Berard get a stick in the face and loose sight in one eye was the day I decided to wear a full cage. I love and want to keep my crooked teeth and eyes even if I have poor eyesight as it is. I pay to play and have a day job and my face, although not pretty by any stretch of the imagination, I want to keep as intact as possible and is not worth risking injury just so I have better on ice vision.

Usually this is the reason players use to justify playing with no visor. It seems to some that it's more important to have 10 more points at the end of their season even if they are risking serious injuries at any given time. But it's their choice. I have a full cage but keep my stick low at all time.

What gets me the most is those players swinging their stick at eye level to know a puck down instead of gloving it and putting it on the ice. Even if I wear a full cage, I could get hit in the neck which could also leave to a serious injury. Some people are careless, some shouldn't be on the ice and others just don't give a shit.

The most unfortunate incident I witnessed was at a game. The guy had been playing with a full cage forever and decided to do the half shield thing but forgot his brand new mouth piece in the car. As he was battling for a on the side of the boards, he fell face first while the other player was attempting to lift his stick and got the end of the blade right in his teeth. The guy with a colgate smile lost 4 front teeth and 3K to get them fixed... Not worth taking the risk IMO

[highslot84 0]

I wear a visor, and I have taken a couple sticks to the head. Three weeks ago a puck deflected up and hit me in the chin, I was pissed and probably needed stitches but it was my fault for not wearing a cage. Not gonna put the cage on though. Like the vision I have much better w/o it.

IF the player is careless and not paying attention and I take one in the face.. I am not gonna be pleased. But if we're battling in the corner and it comes up and gets me.. fine.. play hard boys. A few days ago a guy i beat to the net got mad and just swung his stick and clipped my jaw. It hurt like hell for a few days and he is a tool but what are you gonna do? Rather let him take the penalty and score on the power play than try and lay him out.

[Larry54 243]

I know that this is going to sound like sacrilege on this forum, but hockey is just a game, dammit! Unless you're getting paid to play, any mature responsible adult knows that the slightly improved vision you get from a visor is not worth the risk. Risking your eyesight and/or thousands of dollars of dental work to be very slightly (and I emphasize very slightly) better at a game is totally irrational.

[chippa13 1844]

Speaking for myself and probably a lot of the other older visor wearers out there, I don't wear a visor because I think it may make me better but because it is much more comfortable and I play in a league where most folks are cognizant of their stick at all times.

At the end of the day, who cares why someone wears a cage, a visor, or nothing; just keep your damn sticks down.

[gxc999 7]

 I very strongly agree with Eric about seat belts. It's really true that accidents happen, sometimes follow throughs from a shot are high, pucks get tipped, players fall from bad ice and their sticks come up etc. On a side note, I was very lucky once while playing roller hockey. I was the first player there for a game, and was warming up sans helmet since I was by myself. The best player in the league, kid who was a hot dog and always shot high, snuck in while I was practicing my stick handling and I didn't notice him. Next thing, he  blasted a slapper head high as I was chasing down a loose puck and literally was an inch away from ending my hockey career. Needless to say, I screamed at him and now always wear a helmet w/ cage or full fishbowl when on the ice or floor, even if I'm by myself. 

[SirJW 207]

Time for me to chime in.

I wear a cage and get hit in the face all the time w/ sticks and or hit to the glass. I bet I would have broken my nose and or jaw at least a half dozen times if not for the cage. The refs rarely call penalties. However when a player that wears a cage or nothing, they usually get the call every time.

[Fire0nIce228 1]

After seeing the topic a little ways down about the tooth i'm thinking about going back to full cage. Thats all the evidence I need..

[xrickyb86x 1]

Speaking for myself and probably a lot of the other older visor wearers out there, I don't wear a visor because I think it may make me better but because it is much more comfortable and I play in a league where most folks are cognizant of their stick at all times.

At the end of the day, who cares why someone wears a cage, a visor, or nothing; just keep your damn sticks down.

I think the argument has been shifted since the first page. Now its more about why anyone would risk not wearing a full cage since there are more things to worry about then just high sticks. Deflected pucks, shanked shots, face hitting boards/glass/ice etc.

[tareatingrat 4]

I think the argument has been shifted since the first page. Now its more about why anyone would risk not wearing a full cage since there are more things to worry about then just high sticks. Deflected pucks, shanked shots, face hitting boards/glass/ice etc.

True.

I think we're trying to prove the point that yeah, it sucks if you get clipped, but to flip out on somebody and get in their face over what was almost guaranteed to be an accident is silly when you could have protected yourself.

Again, I really doubt there are many players out there specifically trying to high stick others. If a guy did it on purpose, that's different, but that's usually not the case.

It happens. If you don't like it, protect yourself, or suck it up.

[zebra_steve 11]

I STILL CONTEND that a large percentage of those "accidental" high sticks WOULD BE avoided if folks paid more attention to where their damn sticks are - shield guy or cage guy it doesn't matter 'cuz both sides are guilty. And almost every "ACCIDENTAL" high stick can also be considered "NEGLIGENT" because you are REQUIRED BY RULE TO BE IN CONTROL OF YOUR STICK AT ALL TIMES..... I ALSO CONTEND that if someone has never played without a cage then they have no true clue why we shield wearers get so pissed... AND AS LONG AS I CAN LEGALLY PLAY WITH A SHIELD OR NOTHING AT ALL, YOU CANNOT USE IT AS AN EXCUSE FOR YOUR PISS POOR STICK CONTROL!

And you know what else? None of us are going to the show and there are no scouts watching beer league games. We all (hopefully) have to get up for work in the morning and really don't want to spend the evening in the ER - be it from a high stick, an unexpected check, or a cheap knee. Maybe we need to show more respect for each other and pay attention to what the hell we're doing!

Oh, and to tareatingrat..... with that attitude of "It happens. If you don't like it, protect yourself, or suck it up."...... You better be ready for the retaliation 'cuz that is EXACTLY WHY WE GET PISSED...... It shows that you have ABSOLUTELY no respect for your fellow competitor! Deflections happen, but sticks don't have to!

[tareatingrat 4]

Oh, I completely respect my fellow competitor. I maybe get two or three penalties over the course of a season (30+ games) in my beer-league. I've accidentally high-sticked people before, too, stopped what I was doing and apologized. I don't like doing it. I really wouldn't consider myself a dirty player.

And I USED to wear a visor. I got clipped a couple of times under the shield, one where I actually saw the stick come up and under the visor right by my eye.

It was definitely not the guy's fault. We were both skating hard, he went for the puck, I stick checked him, the stick came up.

He got a penalty, but I definitely didn't blame him for it. He was playing hockey.

At that particular moment, I wondered what the hell I was doing wearing just a visor.

I'm not arguing against keeping sticks down. I completely agree with you that every single effort should be made to keep the sticks down. But seriously, what game do you play? If it's hockey, you know a stick is going to come up eventually.

When that happens, feel free to get mad at it, but welcome to the game. Feel free to retaliate all you want, if you want to escalate the problem. Once again, all I can do is try to control my stick as much as possible. I don't have control over, say, somebody lifting my stick, whereas you could have prevented a high sticking injury nearly 100% of the time by simply wearing a cage. If you choose not to, yeah, suck it up, it's the chance you take.

Maybe it's just the way I look at it, and trust me, I understand what you're trying to say, but there's something to be said for taking some personal responsibility for protecting yourself.

[usahockey22 0]

And you know what else? None of us are going to the show and there are no scouts watching beer league games. We all (hopefully) have to get up for work in the morning and really don't want to spend the evening in the ER - be it from a high stick, an unexpected check, or a cheap knee. Maybe we need to show more respect for each other and pay attention to what the hell we're doing!

Well, this right here is a great argument for wearing full facial protection; it's the closest thing you can get to a guarantee that you won't wind up in the ER from a high stick.

[skyscrape 5]

Well, this right here is a great argument for wearing full facial protection; it's the closest thing you can get to a guarantee that you won't wind up in the ER from a high stick.

Not true! Because as people have stated before, a high stick to the throat can possibly end the life of a cage wearer. SO AGAIN!!!!!CONTROL YOUR GOD DAMN STICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys say it your freaking selves! "I wear a cage and I still get mad when someone loses control of their stick and hits my CAGE!

[mack 44]

Yes but they'll say that they won't have any injuries from such an instance. This discussion is never going to end and hasn't even tickled being constructive.

[Chadd 916]

Yes but they'll say that they won't have any injuries from such an instance. This discussion is never going to end and hasn't even tickled being constructive.

Agreed, though it is funny. You essentially have one side saying "be a little more careful out there" and another side saying "armor up and I don't have to be careful". In an ideal world I guess everyone would have a cage and sticks would still never come up.

[mack 44]

It's almost like Greasers v. Soshes. I know I'm not on the side where the queer guy gets knifed in the fountain by the Karate Kid.

[zebra_steve 11]

Sure it has...

We agree that accidents happen.

We agree that those of us who opt to play without a cage freely make the choice to do so.

We don't seem to agree that ultimately we are responsible for the control of our stick at all times and we should keep the damn thing on the ice.

We do not seem to agree on whether or not we can\should be absolved of the responsibility for the results of a high stick if the other guy had available and did not use all possible options to defend themselves from our carelessness and\or negligent actions.

This one is like talking about skates.... If you were never "old school" - ie before they added all the plastic micro shell BS to the boots then you have no perspective on why us old farts relish the comfort of a good stitched leather boot.... likewise, if you haven't been around the game long enough to see the sticks getting higher and higher with mandatory cages then you don't have the perspective to understand what we are saying.....

Why does this one really rile me up? Well, every game I officiate I see kids that hit with their hands and have their sticks at chest level or higher. They think nothing of smacking someone in the cage with an aggressive stick lift that misses. I can tell by the way they play that they have no fear of hurting someone "because the cage will protect them". Then they hit them in the mask even harder to try to intimidate..... When they get called for it they whine and the coach bitches and then tells them that I was wrong and the play was perfectly legal! These kids are at least the second generation that grew up playing behind a cage and they are also the ones that step into the adult leagues and play the same way..... Add to it that with the current litigious climate we can't "school them" about the errors in their ways that we used to.....

Agreed, though it is funny. You essentially have one side saying "be a little more careful out there" and another side saying "armor up and I don't have to be careful". In an ideal world I guess everyone would have a cage and sticks would still never come up.

Chadd,

It's like life.... you have those that are for personal responsibility and accountability, and those that will blame anyone but themselves and cannot fathom taking ownership of their actions.

[eric42434224 1]

Agreed, though it is funny. You essentially have one side saying "be a little more careful out there" and another side saying "armor up and I don't have to be careful". In an ideal world I guess everyone would have a cage and sticks would still never come up.

No, that is not what both sides are saying. One side is indeed saying "be a little more careful out there", but the other side is saying, "high sticking, wether intentional or accidental, is a fact of life in hockey, and you should wear protection to mitigate the instance or severity of injury". They aren't saying to wear a cage so they can go wild with the sticks.

In an ideal world, no one would get injured regardless of protection, but in a realistic world, things happen. I played in the "beginner" C2 league, and now play C1, and I have to say that I rarely see many high-sticking penalties....and they are obvious accidents that arent caused by reckless play....maybe just a good league.

Chadd,

It's like life.... you have those that are for personal responsibility and accountability, and those that will blame anyone but themselves and cannot fathom taking ownership of their actions.

But the same could be said about someone choosing not to wear a cage, then blames others for their injuries. While I think that those who are reckless with sticks are just that...reckless...and shouldnt behave that way. But I also see many shield/open face players not taking responsibility for their own action of choosing not to wear full protection, and blaming injury solely on others. It is at least a shared responsibility.

[tareatingrat 4]

No, that is not what both sides are saying. One side is indeed saying "be a little more careful out there", but the other side is saying, "high sticking, wether intentional or accidental, is a fact of life in hockey, and you should wear protection to mitigate the instance or severity of injury". They aren't saying to wear a cage so they can go wild with the sticks.

In an ideal world, no one would get injured regardless of protection, but in a realistic world, things happen. I played in the "beginner" C2 league, and now play C1, and I have to say that I rarely see many high-sticking penalties....and they are obvious accidents that arent caused by reckless play....maybe just a good league.

Quoted for truth.

Aside from what I've repeated ad nauseam, there's really not a whole lot more I can say to be "constrtuctive."

In fact, I would assume none of you believe in car insurance, because apparently accidents never happen.

I'm actually amazed that any beer league wouldn't 100% require players to wear cages for insurance purposes.

[usahockey22 0]

Not true! Because as people have stated before, a high stick to the throat can possibly end the life of a cage wearer. SO AGAIN!!!!!CONTROL YOUR GOD DAMN STICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys say it your freaking selves! "I wear a cage and I still get mad when someone loses control of their stick and hits my CAGE!

Thank you for, again, stating the obvious. I thought we've moved beyond the inane starting post here, and concluded that it's quite obvious that we all have a right to get mad, no matter what protection we're wearing, if we get nailed by a careless stick. I got hit in the neck with a stick just the other day, and of course my cage didn't help. But you've obviously missed the point.

Yes, it's not just two sides in here. The seat belt analogy and the insurance analogy both dumb down the argument that has been made in this thread for facial protection, regardless of the recklessness of others on the ice. Even in the truly ideal situation where sticks only come up .01% of the time, you are putting yourself at risk. If you don't get this, then it's true this thread is going nowhere...

But the same could be said about someone choosing not to wear a cage, then blames others for their injuries. While I think that those who are reckless with sticks are just that...reckless...and shouldnt behave that way. But I also see many shield/open face players not taking responsibility for their own action of choosing not to wear full protection, and blaming injury solely on others. It is at least a shared responsibility.

Exactly...the responsibility is on YOU to protect YOURSELF from injury, when participating in an inherently dangerous activity. I'm not going to blame my injury on someone else in an accidental car crash, if I was dumb enough to not be wearing my seatbelt. Now If I'm rear-ended by some idiot, sure I'll blame them for hitting me, but if I still wasn't wearing my seatbelt in that situation, it's not on them if I get injured when my seatbelt could have protected me...

Legally, if someone were to carelessly smash you in the eye and you lost an eye due to the careless high stick, you'd lose your argument for damages in court, because, when you play hockey it is an assumption of risk, and you better take steps to minimize your risk while participating, rather than to simply hope for the best situation, where sticks or pucks never come above waist level.

I'd also love to be able to drive without a seatbelt and instead just make everyone drive perfectly, but that's a dream world, so I wear the damn seatbelt...again, it's an assumption of risk when driving a car on the open road, so it's on you to minimize that risk.

I'm actually amazed that any beer league wouldn't 100% require players to wear cages for insurance purposes.

Most leagues and rinks probably think that their little waiver signed by participants covers them...but the smart ones will require full facial protection, because those waivers are not at all rock solid, and allowing people to play without facial protection is one of the best ways to open yourself up to liability from the ensuing damages.

[eric42434224 1]

I agree, but why do you say the seatbelt anaolgy dumbs down the arguement, and then use that exact analogy twice to support your position? ;)