Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Bob Allen from Maximum Edge.

I still use an M-E Icon holder when I'm working at my LHS.

[Polarlight 0]

Blademaster continues to disappoint:

1) Form dressing is as old as dirt, and Blademaster should have delivered this disruptive technology before Blackstone.

2) Blademaster's "The truth sheet Flat Bottom" is defensive, petty, and unprofessional. They could have demonstrated the advantages of their method but instead wrote a poorly constructed mess that makes one question their credibility. Talking about the potential for "no edge" on FBV, and then admitting the true width of a 90/75 flat bottom is actually 70 thousandths doesn't wash. Moreover, does anyone believe Blademaster used a "representative" Blackstone diamond roll in the numbers they published? While Blademaster may have a better method, I don't trust Blademaster now.

3) Blademaster's BFD isn't available on portables, and for tabletops, it's a Rube Goldberg device if I ever saw one (check out the YouTube video for a good laugh).

While I'm a Blademaster portable owner and Maximum Edge (Bob Allen) fan, Blademaster should be a Harvard Business Review case describing how not to address disruptive technology and the response to a competitor's actions.

I'll enjoy using my Blackstone FBV convertible spinner on my Blademaster portable.

[Drewhunz 3]

The only Blademaster advantage is the expense of buying a Blackstone Stealth machine, and the dismal resale value of a used sharpener.

[pias09 0]

I agree with Drewhunz, but I did try the F02 and in comparison to the old blademaster I'm running here in the shop. It was a heck of a lot nicer to use; which again could be because our machine is ancient and our holders are on their way out. If i was to buy a sharpener the f02 would be very near the top of my list.

Edited October 22, 2009 by pias09

[jagged 0]

Once again - the FBV isn't the patent in question here. It is the method on how it is applied to the wheel, which is what Blackstone patented and the original patent applicant couldn't accomplish.

The method on how a shape is applied to a grinding wheel? just google "diamond roller dresser", it's already been around for years, maybe centuries and yes, there are plenty of patents for them.

I think Blademaster is being petty, but they do make some interesting points. I do believe Blackstone is not accounting for some things, like how the shape of the spinner changes after adding the diamond dust. I've noticed their 1/2" spinner hollow is really more like 7/16". Similar things will happen with the FBV, the flat part will become shorter.

Is "thou" a technical term? I believe 'mil' is the standard term for a thousandth of an inch.

BFD = big f****** deal

FBV = for blackstones vitality

FBV or BFD won't make you a better skater, skating more makes you a better skater.

[RadioGaGa 162]

So, I thought the consensus report on FBV is that it is pretty damn good, right? I just moved into a new part of town...and went into the local Sports place...it's a small independent place...no big Forzani, Rousseau or Source for Sports behind them...

I ask the guy if they do FBV...he goes:

"No...I've never heard of anyone who likes it...I figure in 5 years it won't even be around anymore"

He then told me that his BM rep told him their machine could be altered to do a flat sharpen at a cost of about $2000...but that it "...wasn't worth it, so don't

I've heard a few say they are not 100% sold on it...but that is the first guy I've heard flat out bash it...

[Chadd 916]

So, I thought the consensus report on FBV is that it is pretty damn good, right? I just moved into a new part of town...and went into the local Sports place...it's a small independent place...no big Forzani, Rousseau or Source for Sports behind them...

I ask the guy if they do FBV...he goes:

"No...I've never heard of anyone who likes it...I figure in 5 years it won't even be around anymore"

He then told me that his BM rep told him their machine could be altered to do a flat sharpen at a cost of about $2000...but that it "...wasn't worth it, so don't

I've heard a few say they are not 100% sold on it...but that is the first guy I've heard flat out bash it...

Small shop with a BM machine. I would be surprised if you got any other answer. My old partner used to tell people it wasn't an improvement until he got a machine that could do it.

[goblue9280 33]

Is "thou" a technical term? I believe 'mil' is the standard term for a thousandth of an inch.

Yes, thou is a technical term interchangeable with mil. As an engineer who works with thin sheets of Al, the term thou is used as often or more than mils. As the metric system has increased in use in the US, people often confuse mil with mm.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

So, I thought the consensus report on FBV is that it is pretty damn good, right? I just moved into a new part of town...and went into the local Sports place...it's a small independent place...no big Forzani, Rousseau or Source for Sports behind them...

I ask the guy if they do FBV...he goes:

"No...I've never heard of anyone who likes it...I figure in 5 years it won't even be around anymore"

He then told me that his BM rep told him their machine could be altered to do a flat sharpen at a cost of about $2000...but that it "...wasn't worth it, so don't

I've heard a few say they are not 100% sold on it...but that is the first guy I've heard flat out bash it...

Ok lets make sense of what this guy is saying.....

"No...I've never heard of anyone who likes it...I figure in 5 years it won't even be around anymore"

Ok first part.....Hummm I guess Cory Stillman isn't anyone? As for John Q Public the jury is still out but overall there are more that like it than don't so far.

As for the second part.

Well even if you just did regular hollows it still saves on wheel and dressing time so that sort of blows that theory.

Well you might say well I like it a little inside the half line...guess what every machine is calibrated differently...however an Spinner dressing is pretty damn close from one machine to the next so if you wanted standard ROH either the BS or the BM spinner style systems will dress better and faster.

[CAmmon 2]

This is kind of off topic, but as someone learning to ice skate, should I start with fbv sharpening or get a clue with traditional sharpening first?

[TBLfan 25]

I think that you'd want to stay off FBV until you're stable on your skates.

[RadioGaGa 162]

So, I thought the consensus report on FBV is that it is pretty damn good, right? I just moved into a new part of town...and went into the local Sports place...it's a small independent place...no big Forzani, Rousseau or Source for Sports behind them...

I ask the guy if they do FBV...he goes:

"No...I've never heard of anyone who likes it...I figure in 5 years it won't even be around anymore"

He then told me that his BM rep told him their machine could be altered to do a flat sharpen at a cost of about $2000...but that it "...wasn't worth it, so don't

I've heard a few say they are not 100% sold on it...but that is the first guy I've heard flat out bash it...

Ok lets make sense of what this guy is saying.....

"No...I've never heard of anyone who likes it...I figure in 5 years it won't even be around anymore"

Ok first part.....Hummm I guess Cory Stillman isn't anyone? As for John Q Public the jury is still out but overall there are more that like it than don't so far.

As for the second part.

Well even if you just did regular hollows it still saves on wheel and dressing time so that sort of blows that theory.

Well you might say well I like it a little inside the half line...guess what every machine is calibrated differently...however an Spinner dressing is pretty damn close from one machine to the next so if you wanted standard ROH either the BS or the BM spinner style systems will dress better and faster.

He did say something about NHLers not using it...I mentioned the Florida Panthers/St. Louis Blues...I think he said something like: "None of the young guys though...just the old guys like Stillman who can't skate anyways"

He's obvious never seen Perron skate. He's doing okay on FBV.

I figure it's just an obvious case of Spinner envy.

[TBLfan 25]

A lot of San Jose and Boston players were on it last season... The two teams that dominated the entire season.

[jimmy 194]

This is kind of off topic, but as someone learning to ice skate, should I start with fbv sharpening or get a clue with traditional sharpening first?

My daughters boyfriend decided he wanted to learn to skate and play hockey. I started him on a regular hollow but after a couple of skates he said he wanted to try the FBV. he's been on it ever since and after completing a 8 week, learn to program, he's skating pretty good, stopping, crossovers, not bad. I wouldn't rule it out, just try it, it's no big deal to go back to a hollow if for some reason it doesn't work for you.

[Powerfibers 8]

Looking for a new edge checker. Anyone try these:

http://www.goosesproteamsports.com/EdgeChecker.html

http://edgeprohockey.com/

As opposed to the $149 BLADEMASTER.

I have the bat gauge, but I don't think I am getting good readings out of it. I would like to have something else to compare with and money is not the big issue for now, just not sure if I should pony up for the Blademaster at three times the cost.

[AfftonDad 88]

I have used the "Edge-Pro" one. Works great. Way easier than the BatGage (anyone want to buy a slightly used BatGage?) I also made my own using some pieces of right angle aluminum extrusion and magnets from Home Depot for a few bucks. It works fine also. Make sure to use JR's tip given in this forum of putting electrical tape on it to eliminate the scoring from the skate blade edges.

[dangler16 0]

Got both. I like the edge checker a little more b/c the left and right ends line up. But both work great. +1 on the electrical tape.

[jgiant 0]

I apologize for the slight hijack, but does anyone know of any shops in the Boston area doing the FBV? Driving to NH to get the FBV done is definitely worth it, but extremely time consuming.

Please write or PM me if you happen to know. I appreciate it.

[Hockeyman11385 1]

Front page of the New York Times Sports section. Pretty sweet. Blackstone guys must be happy.

[Ivan 1]

Front page of the New York Times Sports section. Pretty sweet. Blackstone guys must be happy.

New York Times

[starsfan71 9]

I really want a place in North Texas to get one. Some people were talking about the new Players Bench in Coppell is thinking about getting one. It would be well worth the drive.

[Drewhunz 3]

Don't hold your breath.

[freestyla 0]

Front page of the New York Times Sports section. Pretty sweet. Blackstone guys must be happy.

Yeah I was just reading that.

The list of notables includes Zach Parise of the Devils, Joe Thornton and Rob Blake of the San Jose Sharks, Jason Arnott of the Nashville Predators, Milan Michalek of the Ottawa Senators and Doug Weight of the Islanders.

[Law Goalie 147]

Ok, I've got a pair of off brand chinese made skates a mite dad asked me to sharpen up with the FBV. They have a runner with a width of 0.095". This is about 20 thousandths shy of normal width, yes? Well, I sharpened them with a 90/75 FBV, there seems to be a proper edge on it, at least the thumbnail says it's sharp. Edges are even height-wise.

Before I give these back, I was looking for opinions as to whether this will be a substantial enough edge. A pair of older tacks I had to do next have a width of 0.110", so a 100/75 would leave 0.010" additional width on the runner to form the V edges, which has proven to work just fine. On a blade that is 0.095" wide, the 90/75 only leaves 0.005" of width on the runner for the v edges. Is this enough?

And if it is, wouldn't this actually leave you with an FBV that would feel more like the 100/75 (or possibly even more bite) than the 90/75?

Just curious as to anyone's thoughts...

Quoting an earlier question (which seemed to go unanswered) because I've got one of my own re: blade width and how it relates to FBV. Please forgive my atrophied geometry...

We were talking about FBV for goalies in the specific forum, and JR mentioned that Blackstone was working on a few goalie-specific shapes, namely one that offered a flat-bottom of between 110 and 115 to correspond to the wider goalie blade (about .160" as opposed to .110" for player blades), and that this would make shuffling across the edges easier.

Where I'm getting lost, as I read more about FBV, is how the width of the blade changes the effective bite-angle.

With ROH, of course, a goalie blade is effectively 1/8" deeper than a player blade done at the same hollow, so that 1/2" on a goalie blade feels deeper than 1/2" on a player blade; if to have equivalence, the player blade would need to be cut to 5/8".

I'm still not sure how a wider blade will translate in bite-angle with the two FBV variables, and I don't think my trig is up to figuring it out. I'm doubly confused by the suggestion that a wider flat-bottom will make shuffling easier, since widening the flat-bottom on a normal blade (say, 100/75 vs 90/75) makes the bite-angle considerably sharper.

Basically, all I'm looking for is the FBV equivalent to 1/2" on a goalie blade. With that as a baseline, it should be pretty comprehensible from there.

I have a strong suspicion that FBV has the potential to be even more important to goalies than it is to skaters - I'm just not not sure where to begin.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Law Goalie

[Law Goalie 147]

I'm still stunned that Fleury is on 3/4 - especially given that he's using the thinner 9K blades, which effectively makes it 13/16-7/8. His edge control is berserk.

And Jay McKee on V2 blades? LOL