Balsillie's Back

[Jordan 13]

Could be that another team, such as the Thrashers (even more teams besides these two are geting mentioned now) or a different ownership group winds up being "approved" to relocate a franchise to southern ontario to keep Balsillie out.

Bettmen may well react out of spite. He is a stubborn man.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Pierre Lebrun was talking on CBC last night about an NHL Governor (Obviously, no names...) who a few months back said..."Let's give this guy (Balsillie) a chance...he's eager...he's got deep pockets...blah blah blah" and he has now changed his tune...and wants to keep JB out as well.

Maclean asked him if this was an Owner/Governor or a Pres./VP/Governor who isn't the actual owner. Pierre said he couldn't answer that without giving away his identity.

So, Jordan...to your point...Yes. This new group could be approved just out of spite. I'm still not convinced that Hamilton will support a team, long term. 100,000 names on an online petition and actual money in hand for tickets are 2 very different things. They need to sell out every night to make it work...especially because Copps only holds 17,000. They can't afford to have the place half or two thirds full.

Leafs, Habs, the other Canadian teams, Crosby, Ovechkin. Those games sell out for sure...

But, Florida, Carolina, Columbus, Tampa, LA...I really don't see big crowds going to see those games. Now, I don't have the attendance numbers in front of me...but I assume that the teams that the League deems "successful" are 90-100% capacity night after night...regardless of who the opponent is.

[Chadd 916]

Could be that another team, such as the Thrashers (even more teams besides these two are geting mentioned now) or a different ownership group winds up being "approved" to relocate a franchise to southern ontario to keep Balsillie out.

Bettmen may well react out of spite. He is a stubborn man.

Nobody is getting approved for Hamilton or anywhere close to Buffalo as long as a large number of their season ticket holders live across the border.

This also has nothing to do with Bettman being spiteful or stubborn. Look at the situation dispassionately and you should be able to see the reality.

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

Chadd, I don't mean this as a personal barb at all, but your comments above and by others in this thread wreaks of American Protectionism.

It's not as if that type of behaviour is below us Canadians too, we are just as guilty (our Media regulations, the NFL vs CFL debate in Ontario, etc) , but c'mon... Think this through.

Should we block a possible blossoming and blooming to it's full potential of a hockey market just to save another that may or may not suffer if another Southern Ontario team is approved?

In a worst case scenario I would prefer, as a hockey fan and not as a "Nationalist", 2 teams thriving in one neighborhood (2 teams in S.O) than 1 team thriving (Leafs) and 1 team so-so-ing (Sabres)

best case scenario is the Leafs with some healthy competiton in the same neighborhood that could easily sustain both clubs and the sabres getting supported still.

If the Sabres needs Torontonians and other Southern Ontarians to support them, perhaps that says enough about the Sabres likelyhood of longterm survival without having to further expand.

This whole debacle IS about egos (both Balsillies and Bettmans) and not about the Sabres survival and the Leafs/MLSE total monopoly on hockey in Southern Ontario.

The BoG, for some reason, largely has Bettman's back...and Balsillie has done too much damage in the past that no olive branch could save, thus he needs to strong arm his way in and make friends later.

My humble $0.02 worth from a distance, again, with no personal vitriol intended. :)

[Chadd 916]

Chadd, I don't mean this as a personal barb at all, but your comments above and by others in this thread wreaks of American Protectionism.

It's not as if that type of behaviour is below us Canadians too, we are just as guilty (our Media regulations, the NFL vs CFL debate in Ontario, etc) , but c'mon... Think this through.

Should we block a possible blossoming and blooming to it's full potential of a hockey market just to save another that may or may not suffer if another Southern Ontario team is approved?

In a worst case scenario I would prefer, as a hockey fan and not as a "Nationalist", 2 teams thriving in one neighborhood (2 teams in S.O) than 1 team thriving (Leafs) and 1 team so-so-ing (Sabres)

best case scenario is the Leafs with some healthy competiton in the same neighborhood that could easily sustain both clubs and the sabres getting supported still.

If the Sabres needs Torontonians and other Southern Ontarians to support them, perhaps that says enough about the Sabres likelyhood of longterm survival without having to further expand.

This whole debacle IS about egos (both Balsillies and Bettmans) and not about the Sabres survival and the Leafs/MLSE total monopoly on hockey in Southern Ontario.

The BoG, for some reason, largely has Bettman's back...and Balsillie has done too much damage in the past that no olive branch could save, thus he needs to strong arm his way in and make friends later.

My humble $0.02 worth from a distance, again, with no personal vitriol intended. :)

Not protectionist or more accurately nationalist, at all. I just don't see why the border matters to you. I see the Sabres as being as much a Canadian franchise as an American one, it's the fans north of the border that are getting all fired up about national boundaries in this case. How many hockey fans cross over from Windor to see Wings games or from Quebec to Ottawa or even from upstate NY to Montreal? I look at it this way; if there was a team in Hamilton that had a long history in the league but was not the strongest franchise financially, would the fans north of the border want the NHL to put a franchise in Buffalo? I wouldn't have a problem moving the Sabres across the border, if that was the situation being discussed. That would make far more sense than moving a team from out west into their market and then forcing the Sabres to move elsewhere in a couple years.

You also assume that the franchise would be healthy in Hamilton or wherever else in "Southern Ontario" the franchise ends up being located. That isn't a given, especially considering the fluctuation of the Canadian dollar and the fact that salaries are paid in US dollars. Not long ago, every franchise in Canada that wasn't in Toronto and Montreal was having severe financial difficulties. There was interest in relocating the Edmonton franchise but Bettman (the one that hates Canada) pushed for a local ownership group to take over.

You are correct that it is about Balsillie's ego. He is the one that has tried to force everyone to bend to his will from day one. It's not uncommon for self made entrepenur's to act that way, I've worked for a few that shared that particular trait. Bettman is trying to enforce the rules that were in place long before he got the top job in the NHL. The other owners do not want Balsillie as part of the NHL and Bettman has the support of the BoG, that shows that it isn't just his ego. He's doing the job that the owners pay him to do.

Take away the borders and look at the issue dispassionately, don't work from a desired end result and go backwards.

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

Agree, again only to a certain extent.

1. The whole Canadian dollar vs American Salaries was only an issue due to the buildings in Canada not being up to par. In the States most state govt's were building arenas for Pro Sports ventures, with the threat of reloaction as a ruse for action, in Canada our socialist style govt's would never have any of that, unless you are talking about a soccer stadium in Toronto vs the West Coast. Edmonton and Calgary are still playing in 20+ year old stadia that have been updated. The chance of a $.60 Canadian dollar happening again is as likely as Hell Freezing over especially considering all currencies are compared to the States'. Once Vancouver got a new arena they were fine, monetarily, although the Hockey team wasn't necessarily profitable, the Building was, which was owned by the same guy, and thus covered the teams losses. Katz in Edmonton is building a new rink, and with all the money is Alta I cannot see Calgary not getting a new rink in the next 5-6 years either. It was about driving revenue, the Canadian .60 dollar was COMPOUNDED by a lack of luxury suites, club seats, and a franchise owned rink driving concessions like parking etc.

2. I don't care about the border discussion. It is irrelevant. I'm not saying it is a USA vs Canada thing. I realize a large portion of Sabres attendance comes from Canada and the same could be said of Joe Louis Arena from Windsor. I agree you have to look at it from a holistic view of one big area. Hamilton is not going to work longterm as the Steel Industry is dead there with the imminent/current collapse of the Automaking industry/manufacturing industry being in the toilet. It is a stop gap close enough to/in the "Golden Horseshoe"

I'll pose this to you. Let's say you lived in St. Catherines, Ontario Canada, and had a seasons ticket to the Sabres. Let's say Balsillie gets his team in Ontaroo by expansion or relocation, whichever...and places the team somewhere between Hamilton, London, and Waterloo... Are you going to all of a sudden stop going to Sabres games because there is a now a team in your Country, albeit further away, just because you don't have to drive the Peace Bridge!? Not likely. Fans are Fans. Also, the corporate moneys are mostly a moot point these days too. With the Globalization, most corporations that spend moneys either as customers or as sponsors of NHL franchises will spend where they have. You have 3 banks with roots in Canada with their Names on American NHL Venues (TD Bank in Boston, CIBC Mellon in Pittsburgh, and RBC in Raleigh)

If this was a case of hypothetically adding a team in Buffalo that could potentially affect a team in Kitchener/Waterloo or Hamilton I would be all for it, why? Because they are ALL hockey markets, unfortunately the same cannot be said of teams in places like Nashville, Atlanta, and Phoenix.

[Chadd 916]

If this was a case of hypothetically adding a team in Buffalo that could potentially affect a team in Kitchener/Waterloo or Hamilton I would be all for it, why? Because they are ALL hockey markets, unfortunately the same cannot be said of teams in places like Nashville, Atlanta, and Phoenix.

Ok, let's analyze the market itself.

Those markets can't all support 18-20k seats per night all season long. There's also a big difference between buying an $18 ticket for the Kitchener Rangers, a $26 ticket for the Hamilton Bulldogs and a $70 ticket (Toronto average) for the new NHL team. The Bulldogs average 4600 (theahl.com) people per game in this amazing hockey market in an area with a metro population of around 600k people. Hershey averaged almost double those numbers and this area is far from a hockey hotbed. There is little reason to believe that a new team can find support without impacting the existing teams in the area and I stand by my assertion that bringing a team into an area with a functional, yet fragile franchise like the Sabres makes no sense once the nationalism is removed from the equation.

I still think the best location for a third Ontario team is in Toronto or between downtown and the airport. Any impact to the Sabres would be minimal and the population density is there to support a new team.

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

If this was a case of hypothetically adding a team in Buffalo that could potentially affect a team in Kitchener/Waterloo or Hamilton I would be all for it, why? Because they are ALL hockey markets, unfortunately the same cannot be said of teams in places like Nashville, Atlanta, and Phoenix.

Ok, let's analyze the market itself.

Those markets can't all support 18-20k seats per night all season long. There's also a big difference between buying an $18 ticket for the Kitchener Rangers, a $26 ticket for the Hamilton Bulldogs and a $70 ticket (Toronto average) for the new NHL team. The Bulldogs average 4600 (theahl.com) people per game in this amazing hockey market in an area with a metro population of around 600k people. Hershey averaged almost double those numbers and this area is far from a hockey hotbed. There is little reason to believe that a new team can find support without impacting the existing teams in the area and I stand by my assertion that bringing a team into an area with a functional, yet fragile franchise like the Sabres makes no sense once the nationalism is removed from the equation.

I still think the best location for a third Ontario team is in Toronto or between downtown and the airport. Any impact to the Sabres would be minimal and the population density is there to support a new team.

I disagree, comparing an NHL team to AHL or CHL teams is like comparing apples and giraffes. I have 2 WHL Teams equal distances from my house in opposite directions, and yet find little time/want to drive to see games, espeically midweek. If there was an NHL team where I could actually get my hands on tickets I would go, even if it meant driving an hour to do so.

Here in Vancouver I get to go to 4 - 6 games a year, and wish i could go to more.

I agree with you on the fact that this third team to the region should be in the GTA also, not Hamilton or wherever. I would even support a shared building at the ACC, with the leafs getting the concessions and parking etc...however no amount of money is going to get the Laffs to allow that to happen. I think the team should go in the GTA, no further East than Mississauga, this way you draw from Hamilton to Kitchener/Waterloo to Brampton, without really getting into the heart of the GTA and Oshawa, Whitby, Markham, Richmond Hill, and TO proper.

However I still maintain that a new rink in Hamilton would pull 18-20k per night for 40+ games a season, because people will commute for NHL games, the same cannot be said of the OHL/CHL and AHL.

[chippa13 1844]

If this was a case of hypothetically adding a team in Buffalo that could potentially affect a team in Kitchener/Waterloo or Hamilton I would be all for it, why? Because they are ALL hockey markets, unfortunately the same cannot be said of teams in places like Nashville, Atlanta, and Phoenix.

The same Phoenix that has had professional hockey for some 6 decades? That one? Give them a winning team and the seats will get filled.

I have grown tired of the Canadian notion of what is and isn't a hockey market. We've covered this before but no city is a hockey market, except Toronto, when the team is mired in mediocrity year after year.

[Judge Smails 4]

just thinking out loud but - if the NHL is continually trying to "grow" the sport, moving a team from Phoenix (or for that matter, Atlanta or Miami) to Hamilton makes zero sense. Hamilton/Southern Ontario is already hockey crazy.

Putting an NHL team there is not going to "grow" the sport. Having teams in non traditional markets like Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami, Columbus, Raleigh, Nashville, etc.. is the NHL attempting to "grow" the game.

If the league truly wants another team in Southern Ontario, they can simply add an expansion franchise to the tune of a $400-500 million US expansion fee. So let Basille buy a team, just keep it in the market where it currently is.

again - not making a statement, just thinking out loud what the NHL might be thinking

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

Okay, trying to get the point through to some people looks like mission impossible.

chippa: A Hockey Market vs a Non Hockey Market is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Phoenix may have had a "pro team" for some 6 decades does not a hockey market make. How many folks, per capita, attend games, play the game, give a rats ass, how many have grown out of that neck of the woods and made the NHL?

4000+ posts on MSH does not make you some sort of an authority on the game, nor do I claim to have any.

Your comment about "What a Canadian Notion is about what a Hockey Market" is, is total bullshit. Never at anytime when the Canucks were not selling out could you still get a family of 4 in to the game and get all you can eat concessions for under $100.00. You know what? You could do that THIS year in Phoenix. We have over 20 hockey teams within 1 hour drive in any direction that charges admission to games:

1 NHL

2 WHL

3 BCHL

1 Canadian University

10 Junior B

5 Major Midget

I doubt very highly that Phoenix, a metro area of approx 4.2 Million people, has anything remotely close to this.

I also doubt that we have nearly the football, basketball, and baseball participation per capita that they have.

Metro Vancouver is roughly 2.2 million people. We get 1 week, tops, of snow on the ground, and we have less rain and warmer climes than Seattle.

Don't tell me either of:

1. Vancouver isn't a hockey market.

2. Phoenix is a hockey market.

an attempt to do either would be like trying to lick your elbow, or hunt and kill a white unicorn, not at least without lying or completely talking out of your ass.

[Ahriman 1]

Sure growing the overall hockey market is a good idea. Adding teams to non-traditional markets can be a good way to do that. But at some point the terms "growing" and "non traditional" become shoe horning. If it's not a good fit, it's not gonna work. It is not a plant, no matter how much water and sunshine you give it, it's not always going to grow.

[chippa13 1844]

Okay, trying to get the point through to some people looks like mission impossible.

chippa: A Hockey Market vs a Non Hockey Market is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Phoenix may have had a "pro team" for some 6 decades does not a hockey market make. How many folks, per capita, attend games, play the game, give a rats ass, how many have grown out of that neck of the woods and made the NHL?

4000+ posts on MSH does not make you some sort of an authority on the game, nor do I claim to have any.

Your comment about "What a Canadian Notion is about what a Hockey Market" is, is total bullshit. Never at anytime when the Canucks were not selling out could you still get a family of 4 in to the game and get all you can eat concessions for under $100.00. You know what? You could do that THIS year in Phoenix. We have over 20 hockey teams within 1 hour drive in any direction that charges admission to games:

1 NHL

2 WHL

3 BCHL

1 Canadian University

10 Junior B

5 Major Midget

I doubt very highly that Phoenix, a metro area of approx 4.2 Million people, has anything remotely close to this.

I also doubt that we have nearly the football, basketball, and baseball participation per capita that they have.

Metro Vancouver is roughly 2.2 million people. We get 1 week, tops, of snow on the ground, and we have less rain and warmer climes than Seattle.

Don't tell me either of:

1. Vancouver isn't a hockey market.

2. Phoenix is a hockey market.

an attempt to do either would be like trying to lick your elbow, or hunt and kill a white unicorn, not at least without lying or completely talking out of your ass.

There is a difference between being a non-hockey market and being an untapped hockey market. A winning team will prove which they have in Phoenix.

As for the deals Phoenix was offering for tickets, check out some of the deals that Boston tried when they weren't winning and filling seats. Not too dissimilar. The only difference is that Canadians only look at those deals in the non-traditional markets to suit their little "Give us another team" agendas.

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

I don't give a rats ass about Ontario, specifically the Toronto area. In fact I hate the area and for the most part the people living there.

I care deeply about the league, and hockey in general, and know in my heart the best thing for Hocley would be to get the teams out of the areas that are hemmoraging money and put them in places that will at least break even.

Winning games will not alleviate the stress of a franchise losing money to tune of up to 30 mill a season. It is a bad market with a bad lease in a suburb that needs 10 years or so to grow to a point that it will sustain hockey. I don't think anyone has 300 million to gamble on a ten year experiment to see if it comes to fruition.

If it was your money would you leave the team there chippa? Answer honestly now.

I don't have a "Give us another team" agenda.

[Chadd 916]

Winning games will not alleviate the stress of a franchise losing money to tune of up to 30 mill a season.

Winning games and a trip through bankruptcy did just that for Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Ottawa

[shotty 7]

just thinking out loud but - if the NHL is continually trying to "grow" the sport, moving a team from Phoenix (or for that matter, Atlanta or Miami) to Hamilton makes zero sense. Hamilton/Southern Ontario is already hockey crazy.

Putting an NHL team there is not going to "grow" the sport. Having teams in non traditional markets like Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami, Columbus, Raleigh, Nashville, etc.. is the NHL attempting to "grow" the game.

If the league truly wants another team in Southern Ontario, they can simply add an expansion franchise to the tune of a $400-500 million US expansion fee. So let Basille buy a team, just keep it in the market where it currently is.

again - not making a statement, just thinking out loud what the NHL might be thinking

and you're spot on. why reward a hockey crazy market with an nhl team and back out of a market where hundreds of millions have already been invested? it makes sense from an ownership standpoint because a team in canada would be profitable to the owners who are forced to share revenue with franchises like the coyotes et al... but from a brand and business perspective, you try to stay the course when you've already made a commitment. i'd love to see a reorganization of those southernmost teams, but i doubt it'll happen.

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

Winning games will not alleviate the stress of a franchise losing money to tune of up to 30 mill a season.

Winning games and a trip through bankruptcy did just that for Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Ottawa

As did getting new buildings/the promise of a new building. A new shiny arena will bring fans out even in lieu of a decent team for a while. Also worth noting that those teams also managed to improve via good drafting during their bad years and have turned the trick.

The Yotes have been bad for a long time, and haven't been able to get their youth up to speed and convince veterans of any quality to help. Jovanovski has larely been a bust since leaving Vancouver. Doan is their heart and soul. Mueller, Turris, and Boedker are going to be good, but they need time, and veteran savvy to help. They have 2 players over 30 signed for next year: Doan and Jovo

C'Mon.

We all know this conversation isn't happening if the Yotes played Downtown and owned their rink. But if my Aunty had balls she'd be my Uncle.

The Yotes in Glendale in a city suburb owned building, with a bad lease coupled with a bad team and highly leveraged ownership was/is a recipe for disaster.

[chippa13 1844]

I think you just described the Pens of 3 years ago.

[Chadd 916]

Winning games will not alleviate the stress of a franchise losing money to tune of up to 30 mill a season.

Winning games and a trip through bankruptcy did just that for Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Ottawa

As did getting new buildings/the promise of a new building. A new shiny arena will bring fans out even in lieu of a decent team for a while. Also worth noting that those teams also managed to improve via good drafting during their bad years and have turned the trick.

The Yotes have been bad for a long time, and haven't been able to get their youth up to speed and convince veterans of any quality to help. Jovanovski has larely been a bust since leaving Vancouver. Doan is their heart and soul. Mueller, Turris, and Boedker are going to be good, but they need time, and veteran savvy to help. They have 2 players over 30 signed for next year: Doan and Jovo

C'Mon.

We all know this conversation isn't happening if the Yotes played Downtown and owned their rink. But if my Aunty had balls she'd be my Uncle.

The Yotes in Glendale in a city suburb owned building, with a bad lease coupled with a bad team and highly leveraged ownership was/is a recipe for disaster.

New owner

New lease

Player maturation

That can all be done in their existing location and winning will bring out more fans.

[Chadd 916]

Love the passion in this thread.

Having seen what the Ducks coming to SoCal did for/to LA Kings fans from OC, it took away quite a bit of the fan base DESPITE the Kings getting a ton of money out of the deal. Copps is 36mi/58.5km from the AAC. You don't think that a season ticket holder from Hamilton is going to buck the high cost of tickets and the drive to the AAC in order to stay closer to home and potentially have a Stanley Cup celebration BEFORE the Leafs do? If you don't, then look at what happened here in SoCal (Honda Center, aka "The Pond", is 31 miles from Staples Center, and is 34 miles from the Fabulous Forum where the LA Kings used to play).

As soon as the Ducks started to get away from Disney and people who wanted to spend money and win took over, they won! I was fucking there, 5 rows off the ice! :D Jim B. has more money than the Leafs and you can bet your sweet ass that you're staring at an encore performance in the making, just in a different city.

Now if the NHL, Jim B. and Moyes can settle this situation out...

Not to mention this team is very similar to Quebec prior to the move to Denver.

[tonguesOUT4life 17]

ive lived in phoenix and you cant say hockey wasnt growing there

cyotes, roadrunners (echl), sundongs (chl), polar bears (wshl jr. B ) . i went to high school games at all tell ice den and i was surprised at the levels they were playing at. i remember there was one local from phoenix who made the roster for the cyotes i forgot his name. unfortunally the roadrunners folded and now the cyotes might be on their way out. im a canadian but i believe the cyotes should stay in phoenix and a winning team will fill up the seats at jobbing.com arena. why destroy the already booming hockey population in phoenix?

[QandA 0]

Just a reminder, the NBA tried basketball in Vancouver. It didn't work. They sucked, the owner had no money and sold off. I'm pretty sure not to many Canadian fans cared. Sure if they made the playoffs, fans might of come, but it was doomed from the beginning, it just didn't work, and I'm sure people realize that. It wasn't a basketball market. The NBA realized it was a failure. Some things just don't work out.

Edit- removed quoted stuff

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

Just a reminder, the NBA tried basketball in Vancouver. It didn't work. They sucked, the owner had no money and sold off. I'm pretty sure not to many Canadian fans cared. Sure if they made the playoffs, fans might of come, but it was doomed from the beginning, it just didn't work, and I'm sure people realize that. It wasn't a basketball market. The NBA realized it was a failure. Some things just don't work out.

Edit- removed quoted stuff

Wrong!!!!

I was here, and attended games.

1. The NBA wouldn't allow either the Raps or the Grizz top draft picks, and thus were forced to improve from the perspective of never having a top pick, despite the record, for a few years. The Raps STILL blow because of this in their early years. Colangelo is trying to turn things around there, they have been better the last 3-4 years.

2. The Original owner wasn't a basketball guy per se and asked the NBA who should head BBall Ops and be the GM, they gave us Stu(pid) Jackson, who they were wanting out of the NBA HQ, and he ruined us. He missed on drafting lots of guys and drafted really poorly instead. Steve Nash was passed up, who is from here in favour of others like Steve Francis, who told them he wouldn't play here if they drafted him, and they did it anyway!

3. Stern the snake blocked the sale to the Laurie's who were at least forthcoming in their wanting to move the team. He then allowed Michael Heisley to buy the team, and he then told his ticket agents and sales reps to stop returning calls to companies. They stopped taking corporate moneys, they stopped selling suites. My company had 4 seats to the Grizzlies. We called to get a box and 1 more pair of seats and we tried over 3 months, to no avail. We never had our tickets bought and then out of the blue Heisley said he couldn't sell tickets and they moved the team. It was an outright lie.

The "Owner that had no money" was the guy who owned the Canucks. He wanted out of owning both shortly after developing GM place and sold to a very deep pockets guy in John McCaw, who is one of the richest americans in the world. McCaw then got out of the Basketball business because it was rumoured he was looking for a stake in the Sonics.

FYI: 2 groups are supposedly trying to get the NBA back here. The current Canucks owner is trying to get the Indiana Pacers, who are hemmoraging cash to move here, and the failed group that sued the current Nucks owners, moguls Ryan Beedie and Tom Gaglardi (The guy behing the move of the Thrashers to Hamilton) are trying to get a NBA team here too.

Basketball is not as regional or territorial as hockey. Every high school here has Basketball, and the two Canadian Universities here have good programs and actually play good ball.

Also our little area has developed Steve Nash and many current NCAA and Pro players.

We are not a smash-hit NBA market, but we are surely a better Market than Memphis or some other weird outposts the NBA are in now...

[chippa13 1844]

Just a reminder, the NBA tried basketball in Vancouver. It didn't work. They sucked, the owner had no money and sold off. I'm pretty sure not to many Canadian fans cared. Sure if they made the playoffs, fans might of come, but it was doomed from the beginning, it just didn't work, and I'm sure people realize that. It wasn't a basketball market. The NBA realized it was a failure. Some things just don't work out.

Edit- removed quoted stuff

Wrong!!!!

I was here, and attended games.

1. The NBA wouldn't allow either the Raps or the Grizz top draft picks, and thus were forced to improve from the perspective of never having a top pick, despite the record, for a few years. The Raps STILL blow because of this in their early years. Colangelo is trying to turn things around there, they have been better the last 3-4 years.

2. The Original owner wasn't a basketball guy per se and asked the NBA who should head BBall Ops and be the GM, they gave us Stu(pid) Jackson, who they were wanting out of the NBA HQ, and he ruined us. He missed on drafting lots of guys and drafted really poorly instead. Steve Nash was passed up, who is from here in favour of others like Steve Francis, who told them he wouldn't play here if they drafted him, and they did it anyway!

3. Stern the snake blocked the sale to the Laurie's who were at least forthcoming in their wanting to move the team. He then allowed Michael Heisley to buy the team, and he then told his ticket agents and sales reps to stop returning calls to companies. They stopped taking corporate moneys, they stopped selling suites. My company had 4 seats to the Grizzlies. We called to get a box and 1 more pair of seats and we tried over 3 months, to no avail. We never had our tickets bought and then out of the blue Heisley said he couldn't sell tickets and they moved the team. It was an outright lie.

The "Owner that had no money" was the guy who owned the Canucks. He wanted out of owning both shortly after developing GM place and sold to a very deep pockets guy in John McCaw, who is one of the richest americans in the world. McCaw then got out of the Basketball business because it was rumoured he was looking for a stake in the Sonics.

FYI: 2 groups are supposedly trying to get the NBA back here. The current Canucks owner is trying to get the Indiana Pacers, who are hemmoraging cash to move here, and the failed group that sued the current Nucks owners, moguls Ryan Beedie and Tom Gaglardi (The guy behing the move of the Thrashers to Hamilton) are trying to get a NBA team here too.

Basketball is not as regional or territorial as hockey. Every high school here has Basketball, and the two Canadian Universities here have good programs and actually play good ball.

Also our little area has developed Steve Nash and many current NCAA and Pro players.

We are not a smash-hit NBA market, but we are surely a better Market than Memphis or some other weird outposts the NBA are in now...

So you're saying that with a better showing from ownership and the players, a city that some might not consider an NBA market could have made it with a better team and strong ownership, had it only been given the chance.

And you my friend, have just squashed your own argument.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Game, set, match.

Let's move on now.

I hate BlackBerry phones. Therefore, let's not sell him the team.