Saving $$$$$

[Ahriman 1]

Even then four burgers at McDonalds is more than enough food for a meal. The only reason I gave such a low "at least" value is because I remember what we'd order back in high-school when money was tight. Under $4 at McD's and you'd get four cheeseburgers and a water.

The 99 cent doubles would let you buy a coke too.

True, if you wanted to develop a heart condition from sodium intake, that would be 192% of your salt intake for the day, in one of three daily meals.

You're going to die anyway. Living is hazardous to your health.

So might as well find all the hookers and blow you can eh? No sense living a healthy life if you're just gonna die...

If you really want to save money, sell your house, live in a cardboard box. Some measures just don't measure up versus the consequences.

Simmer down...Chadd's been known to be a little sarcastic. Take it with a grain of salt, eh? (pun intended)

Some people find that kind of diet acceptable; rather be safe than sorry, plus my sarcasmotron generally is out of calibration early in the morning.

[Chadd 916]

Even then four burgers at McDonalds is more than enough food for a meal. The only reason I gave such a low "at least" value is because I remember what we'd order back in high-school when money was tight. Under $4 at McD's and you'd get four cheeseburgers and a water.

The 99 cent doubles would let you buy a coke too.

True, if you wanted to develop a heart condition from sodium intake, that would be 192% of your salt intake for the day, in one of three daily meals.

You're going to die anyway. Living is hazardous to your health.

So might as well find all the hookers and blow you can eh? No sense living a healthy life if you're just gonna die...

If you really want to save money, sell your house, live in a cardboard box. Some measures just don't measure up versus the consequences.

Simmer down...Chadd's been known to be a little sarcastic. Take it with a grain of salt, eh? (pun intended)

Some people find that kind of diet acceptable; rather be safe than sorry, plus my sarcasmotron generally is out of calibration early in the morning.

When talking about inexpensive food options, the original topic, there is always going to be something "wrong" with whatever you choose. Too much fat, too much sodium, too much cholesterol, not enough nutritional value, etc... I don't endorse eating Burgers and fries every day, in fact you're probably better off eating that stuff as little as possible.

That said, everything will kill you. Do your best, live life in moderation and try and enjoy the ride. Focus on the negative stuff too much and you really aren't living anyway. To quote a songsmith that I enjoy; "I'd rather die while I'm living that live while I'm dead."

[RecLeagueHero 0]

From an objective point of view if you want to take the "better safe than sorry" approach it's time to stop playing hockey and you never should have started. Any contact sport is on the no no list actually, law of averages says you will be hurt. You should avoid any and all alcoholic beverages and/or tabacco products. Stay the hell away from any motorized transportation, as well as places where said are being operated by others. Of course, this would make life a lot less enjoyable but it would make you much more likely to live longer than average.

The hard reality is Micky D's doesn't make people fat. What makes Americans fat is that the majority of the population gets absolutely no form of regular exercise. People 50-60 years ago ate a lot of stuff we'd call bad: fatty red meats, butter out the ying-yang, cooking with lard was common, and so on. However, a lot more people worked very physical jobs. Recreation was by in large a much more physical affair as well. It's just easier for people to point the finger at fast food, instead of getting off their fat asses and hitting the gym. If they did that 4-5 times a week the fast food wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue as it is now.

[Rocketking 0]

Yeah if you seriously want to get the finances in order, Dave Ramsey's the man. My friends went from being beyond broke and way over their heads in debt to paying cash for cars and having tons of money in the bank. They're very, very frugal but still happy, three little kids and only one income.

Right on with this.

Dave's basic rule is to buy only what you can pay for, never buy anything on credit. We've been working on getting on this and we're nearly debt-free.

Imagine what it would be like, stress-wise, to be able to go thru the day not having $1000's in debt?

So I DO NOT borrow ANY money. That's my basic plan.

[reyno2ac 0]

So I DO NOT borrow ANY money. That's my basic plan.

I wish I could do that but there is no possible way for me to get through college without any loans. Luckily next year is my last.

[Rocketking 0]

So I DO NOT borrow ANY money. That's my basic plan.

I wish I could do that but there is no possible way for me to get through college without any loans. Luckily next year is my last.

Yeah I hear you.

I was pretty lucky cuz I got a job with a large company in summer after my sophomore year and since they had a good educational reimbursement plan I stayed working there thru the end until I graduated.

I couldn't believe how much of what I was making at one point was going to finance companies for Credit Cards I had? If I had been able to invest some of that instead of having it go for interest payments?

[TBLfan 25]

The problem with credit cards is people abuse them. If you account for every dollar you spend and pay them off in full, you'll never have an issue. BUT it is hard to fall into the trap of plastic money, which is a lot easier to mow through in one trip to the mall or pro shop.

Right now, credit card companies are willing to settle the debt with you. My teammate's brother settled a 12k debt with an upfront 5K payment... but I'm pretty sure it will give you a hit on your credit and end your business with that card company.

[Chadd 916]

The problem with credit cards is people abuse them. If you account for every dollar you spend and pay them off in full, you'll never have an issue. BUT it is hard to fall into the trap of plastic money, which is a lot easier to mow through in one trip to the mall or pro shop.

Right now, credit card companies are willing to settle the debt with you. My teammate's brother settled a 12k debt with an upfront 5K payment... but I'm pretty sure it will give you a hit on your credit and end your business with that card company.

And you get taxed on the amount they take off your bill. That guy now has to claim an extra $7k in income for the year.

[chippa13 1844]

Yeah if you seriously want to get the finances in order, Dave Ramsey's the man. My friends went from being beyond broke and way over their heads in debt to paying cash for cars and having tons of money in the bank. They're very, very frugal but still happy, three little kids and only one income.

Right on with this.

Dave's basic rule is to buy only what you can pay for, never buy anything on credit. We've been working on getting on this and we're nearly debt-free.

Imagine what it would be like, stress-wise, to be able to go thru the day not having $1000's in debt?

So I DO NOT borrow ANY money. That's my basic plan.

There is nothing wrong with smart borrowing. A mortgage can work out in your favor with a good rate. You get a tax break on the interest that you pay and you can use the money that you didn't spend to make more. The same is true with a car loan. The way dealers are giving them away and with car financing usually ridiculously cheap, you are better off not giving them your cash right away but earning on it.

[Ahriman 1]

In regards to large loans like mortgages, debt creates wealth. Some people never figure out how that works.

[Rocketking 0]

There is nothing wrong with smart borrowing. A mortgage can work out in your favor with a good rate. You get a tax break on the interest that you pay and you can use the money that you didn't spend to make more. The same is true with a car loan. The way dealers are giving them away and with car financing usually ridiculously cheap, you are better off not giving them your cash right away but earning on it.

I'll buy the real estate investment point but pass on the car comparison.

On Real Estate - you want to make an long term investment then you're going to need capital. No problem with that. Over 10 years all RE will increase its value. Good investment.

On cars - all cars, and especially NEW cars, are bad investments. They depreciate 20-25% when you drive off the lot. We all need a car and the best way to have one is to buy used with money saved. I have bought a few that way not all. Even with awesome financing buying new is a bad idea IMO.

The first thing Dave tells his callers when they call for investment advice "SELL THE CAR" because the payments are killing the guy.

So yeah, if your getting a new business together you need capital. If you don't have it then I see nothing wrong with borrowing for that.

Just my perspective.

[chippa13 1844]

"SELL THE CAR" is all well and good except for the fact that folks need to get around from time to time. Sure, don't buy a car you cannot afford, that is just common sense and you shouldn't have to call some supposed money guru for that gem.

[TBLfan 25]

There is nothing wrong with smart borrowing. A mortgage can work out in your favor with a good rate. You get a tax break on the interest that you pay and you can use the money that you didn't spend to make more. The same is true with a car loan. The way dealers are giving them away and with car financing usually ridiculously cheap, you are better off not giving them your cash right away but earning on it.

I'll buy the real estate investment point but pass on the car comparison.

On Real Estate - you want to make an long term investment then you're going to need capital. No problem with that. Over 10 years all RE will increase its value. Good investment.

On cars - all cars, and especially NEW cars, are bad investments. They depreciate 20-25% when you drive off the lot. We all need a car and the best way to have one is to buy used with money saved. I have bought a few that way not all. Even with awesome financing buying new is a bad idea IMO.

The first thing Dave tells his callers when they call for investment advice "SELL THE CAR" because the payments are killing the guy.

So yeah, if your getting a new business together you need capital. If you don't have it then I see nothing wrong with borrowing for that.

Just my perspective.

Not all cars, just NEARLY all cars are horrible investments. Mostly very expensive cars can appreciate in value but there have been some reasonably priced cars that were good investments. In 2002, people were selling their used 01 Mini(BMW) Coopers in the UK for more than the sticker price they paid.

It's possible that the new Camaro might be that kind of car but... yeah, it's not exactly a good investment.

[shotty 7]

There is nothing wrong with smart borrowing. A mortgage can work out in your favor with a good rate. You get a tax break on the interest that you pay and you can use the money that you didn't spend to make more. The same is true with a car loan. The way dealers are giving them away and with car financing usually ridiculously cheap, you are better off not giving them your cash right away but earning on it.

I'll buy the real estate investment point but pass on the car comparison.

On Real Estate - you want to make an long term investment then you're going to need capital. No problem with that. Over 10 years all RE will increase its value. Good investment.

On cars - all cars, and especially NEW cars, are bad investments. They depreciate 20-25% when you drive off the lot. We all need a car and the best way to have one is to buy used with money saved. I have bought a few that way not all. Even with awesome financing buying new is a bad idea IMO.

The first thing Dave tells his callers when they call for investment advice "SELL THE CAR" because the payments are killing the guy.

So yeah, if your getting a new business together you need capital. If you don't have it then I see nothing wrong with borrowing for that.

Just my perspective.

what he's suggesting is that interest rates on investing are higher than finance rates, so the money you'll make keeping the cash in a guaranteed bond is greater than what you'd pay on a car loan. if an auto maker is willing to lend you $35,000 over four years at 1.9% APR and your GIC is going to pay you 3.0%, where are you going to put your money.... directly into a car that, as you mentioned, depreciated as soon as you sign on the dotted line, or directly into a bond?

the less money you pay up front for a depreciating asset, the better. if you can get away with only paying $600 today and then $350 a month as opposed to $35,000 today and owing nothing, wouldn't you?

[RecLeagueHero 0]

There is nothing wrong with smart borrowing. A mortgage can work out in your favor with a good rate. You get a tax break on the interest that you pay and you can use the money that you didn't spend to make more. The same is true with a car loan. The way dealers are giving them away and with car financing usually ridiculously cheap, you are better off not giving them your cash right away but earning on it.

I'll buy the real estate investment point but pass on the car comparison.

On Real Estate - you want to make an long term investment then you're going to need capital. No problem with that. Over 10 years all RE will increase its value. Good investment.

On cars - all cars, and especially NEW cars, are bad investments. They depreciate 20-25% when you drive off the lot. We all need a car and the best way to have one is to buy used with money saved. I have bought a few that way not all. Even with awesome financing buying new is a bad idea IMO.

The first thing Dave tells his callers when they call for investment advice "SELL THE CAR" because the payments are killing the guy.

So yeah, if your getting a new business together you need capital. If you don't have it then I see nothing wrong with borrowing for that.

Just my perspective.

Yeah, it's not the best finanical move to buy a brand new car. Which is why of new car sales 90% are leases, which makes more sense. Of course, there's always the "I just want it factor" and there's nothing wrong with that either. Truth is you come into this world alone and with nothing, you'll leave it the same way. I'd much rather have a good time knowing I'll suffer my share of troubles, like everyone else, than to constantly make due without for fear of what may happen.

That said, the problem with the Dave Ramsey philosophy is that it hurts you in the long run. A credit card, if used wisely, is a great asset. Equally, it's a part of building your credit. Starting out after high school with a low limit credit card is how you prove responsiblity to lenders. After you've established responible borrowing habits it helps a lot when you go to make your first major purchase, which is usually a car for Americans. Having a term loan like a car under your belt, with revolving accounts like a credit card and store credit shows lenders that you can handle payments when you want to purchase a house. Without credit home ownership would be virtually impossible for most people. Showing up to a mortgage lender in your early 30's when you want to buy a house with no credit history means the lender has no history to gauge your credit risk. Someone with a few late payments here and there is in a much better position that you would be in that situation. Most lenders will also assume that someone in that position doesn't trust themselves with credit, and that's not a good place to be when you need to borrow either. Which will lead to one of two possibilities:

1.The lender will tell you to come back when you've built a credit history.

2.The lender will want a large down payment, demand higher levels of mortgage insurance, and charge you higher interest rates

Neither is a good place to be. Part of life in a capitalist soceity is borrowing and lending. Credit helps people cope with unexpected expenses without resortling to living off Tom Ramen noodles. It helps people purchase safe and realible cars. It enables us to own a home, which is a major asset, as for the vast majority of people it's the most expensive thing they own. It allows us to start and expand businesses. Of course, it can be abused and some people will abuse it. But taking the road of "I'm never going to have credit" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[chippa13 1844]

Leasing a car doesn't make much sense when you come down to it. It is similar to lifelong renting. When a lease ends you have nothing to show for the 3 years of monthly payments and the initial payment. Plus, there is the possibility for a hefty payment at the lease's end if you exceed the mileage limit and/or there is any damage to the vehicle that could effect the dealership's sale of the car.

[Jarick 5]

Nothing wrong with installment loans though. I have student loans at a low interest rate, I pay them on time, and it helps my credit. I open up a few credit cards, carry zero balance, it helps my credit. Every time you pay off something, it helps your credit.

Carrying balances on loans hurts credit, especially credit cards. You should have seen how bad mine dropped when I was listed on my parents' $10k card with an $8500 balance. I couldn't get a loan. Took a few months to get it fixed and credit scores shot right up again.

Ideally, I'd be able to get a car loan and put an extra 25-50% towards it every month to get it paid off early and negate a lot of the interest. Even if you put one or two extra payments a year, it saves a ton in interest. And it doesn't hurt your credit whatsoever.

I did just pick up a car off Craigslist for $700, older, higher miles, and basically no features on it, but $50 in parts and a few hours in the garage and it runs like a champ. Now I'm wishing instead of spending $20k on a used Murano I would have spent $5k on a used Pathfinder, but what can you do.

Back to the food thing, if you shop at Target or Walmart, you can get staple foods for very cheap. Buy what's on sale or in season and supplement with fresh produce when cooking.

With Gamefly, it's $17 a month...not too expensive, but not cheap either. Personally, I usually buy games that are a couple years old and have dropped to $20-30, plus I buy used. I picked up Burnout Paradise for $17 this weekend, I'll probably play it for a month, then sell it.

I just signed up with Goozex to get rid of a few games I don't play, along with NHL 09 (anticipating a price drop in the used market when 10 comes out). It looks like it has ups and downs, but I'll see how it goes. So far I got rid of Orange Box, but only for the equivalent of $10 (and another $3 in shipping and fee charges). So $7...not a great return. But with eBay and Amazon, you have another $4-6 in fees when you sell something, so it's kind of a wash. Higher dollar games have a much better return though, but we'll see how long it takes to buy and sell games (long wait list).

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Leasing a car doesn't make much sense when you come down to it. It is similar to lifelong renting. When a lease ends you have nothing to show for the 3 years of monthly payments and the initial payment. Plus, there is the possibility for a hefty payment at the lease's end if you exceed the mileage limit and/or there is any damage to the vehicle that could effect the dealership's sale of the car.

Actually this isn't true, and it's part of the same mythology that spawned the "rent is a waste of money" BS. The average American gets a new car every 3.5 years anyway, if you leased for the same period you aren't eating all of the value loss yourself. You're always driving a car that's under warrenty with a leases, and getting rid of it before it becomes a major mechanical liability. Of course you have something to show for the payment, you had a car to drive for the last three years.

You carry insurance to cover damages, and if you can't keep to the milage agreement then yes, it doesn't make sense to lease. But if you can, if you like getting a new car regularly, or a somewhat nicer car than you could afford to buy the lease makes a great deal of sense.

[eric42434224 1]

There are no right or wrong answers here fellas.

First, a vehicle is not an investment. Unless you are a vintage car collector, you would be foolish to have the term "investment" associated with the purchase or lease of a car.

It is used for trasnsportation, and depending on the particular situation of the owner (purpose, mileage, time, finances, etc) there are situations where one purchase method may work better than others....be it leasing, buying new or used, and financing options.

When dealing with real estate, one must also be careful when talking about "investments". The old conventional wisdom that Real Estate is a "good investment" has been proven to be not so true. Even with relatively normal real estate markets, they far underperform equity markets...and even some debt markets. This is especially evident recently. Unless you are using the properties for speculation, your house is a place to live, and though over time you will likely gain equity, the real return after inflation is pretty meager.

There are benefits to financing though, as few can afford to pay cash.

Renting can also be the correct choice for housing under certain conditions.

Again, one can only take the detailed individual situation to determine which course of action is correct.

Giving "one size fits all advice", is just plain irresponsible.

[chippa13 1844]

Leasing a car doesn't make much sense when you come down to it. It is similar to lifelong renting. When a lease ends you have nothing to show for the 3 years of monthly payments and the initial payment. Plus, there is the possibility for a hefty payment at the lease's end if you exceed the mileage limit and/or there is any damage to the vehicle that could effect the dealership's sale of the car.

Actually this isn't true, and it's part of the same mythology that spawned the "rent is a waste of money" BS. The average American gets a new car every 3.5 years anyway, if you leased for the same period you aren't eating all of the value loss yourself. You're always driving a car that's under warrenty with a leases, and getting rid of it before it becomes a major mechanical liability. Of course you have something to show for the payment, you had a car to drive for the last three years.

You carry insurance to cover damages, and if you can't keep to the milage agreement then yes, it doesn't make sense to lease. But if you can, if you like getting a new car regularly, or a somewhat nicer car than you could afford to buy the lease makes a great deal of sense.

The average American also carries more debt than they should. This thread isn't about what people do, it is about what people should do to save some money in the long run.

As for the second bolded sentence, there lies most peoples' problems and why they cannot save money. Just because you want something nicer does not mean you should be driving it. The mentality of entitlement is what puts most people in the hole in the first place.

"Gee, I can't buy that Lexus but I can lease it." instead of "Gee, I can't buy that Lexus but I can buy that Toyota" is a problem. If you lease then at the end of three years you still have to lay out money or enter a new lease. If you buy and are smart about your payments then in three years you have a car and no monthly payment.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

The average American also carries more debt than they should. This thread isn't about what people do, it is about what people should do to save some money in the long run.

As for the second bolded sentence, there lies most peoples' problems and why they cannot save money. Just because you want something nicer does not mean you should be driving it. The mentality of entitlement is what puts most people in the hole in the first place.

"Gee, I can't buy that Lexus but I can lease it." instead of "Gee, I can't buy that Lexus but I can buy that Toyota" is a problem. If you lease then at the end of three years you still have to lay out money or enter a new lease. If you buy and are smart about your payments then in three years you have a car and no monthly payment.

The reality is when you start looking at repair bills for an older car there's really no savings. Cars are not designed to be on the road forever. So sure, you might not have the fixed monthly cost anymore, but when the wheel bearings have to be replaced along with the roters and brakes you're probably looking at 3 months worth of payments, or more, right there. The reality is cars are not a good asset, doesn't matter what means you chose to obtain one. What you should be driving is what you want to drive. If you want to drive crap so you can build a savings account, great for you. Of course, most people's money problems are actually the result of medical bills. Reality is, you can save all you want, a serious illness will make short work of your savings even after the insurance.

If you buy the Toyota, after you're done paying for it, paying to maintain it, paying to repair it, needing rental cars while it's in the shop, and whatever time lost due to the car breaking down, you will still arrive at the day where it's simply no longer worth the money it costs to fix it. You'll have to go out a buy another car and start the process all over again. There's going to be no signficant difference in costs between someone taking out lease cars, returning them, and getting new ones in the long haul. What little savings there would be doing it your way is, for most people, going to be greatly eclipsed by the enjoyment they got of out the cars. Not to mention it's much easier to budget for a fixed expense like a payment than it is to sit around wondering what month the car is going to go down in and how much it'll cost this time.

So reality is the best way to save money is to find a way to live without a car. I'm not sure how practical that is for most people, at least in the good old USA, but otherwise you're going to have signficant transportation related costs dealing with cars.

[TBLfan 25]

If you maintain a car(and you don't buy a POS) and don't drive it like you stole it, you won't need to do any major repairs for a while. My truck is a 96 with well over 100K miles and the only thing(besides the basics) that has needed to be replaced was the A/C compressor.

[eric42434224 1]

In the following example, we show you what it costs to buy and own a new car or to lease a car for 10 years. In these examples, we assumed that the car was worth $20,000 when new and was financed at a 6 percent interest rate. Also, in each case, a down payment of $1,000 was made. These figures are estimates to give you a comparative feeling for these different car financing scenarios.

If You Buy Your Car: Purchase your car with the help of an auto loan, and you will make higher payments for the first five years, but then you will own it. Over 10 years, this averages $191 a month or a total cost of $22,920, not including insurance, maintenance and the like.

If You Lease Your Car: Purchase your car with the help of an auto loan, and you will lease more than three times, each time making an initial payment of $1,000 and monthly payments of $323. For 10 years, this is a total of $41,760.

Point is, if you think you will pay out $18,840 in repairs over 10 years on a car, you are smoking some good stuff. I have a 1999 honda civic, and I cant remember a time when a repair was needed. Only had to do routine maintenance like brakes and tune-ups. over 100k miles and runs beautifully.

But I dont have my ego tied up in what I drive, nor do I have other factors that might make leasing necessary.

Brining up repair costs as a justification for leasing doesnt make much sense.

And most peoples (under 50 yrs old) money problems are absolutely not due to medical bills. If you are older than that, you need medical insurance and long term care to mitigate serious illness expenses. With younger people, it is statistically irrelevant to bring that into this discussion.

As I said earlier. Leasing and Buying are both appropriate under different circumstances. Saying one is plain better than the other is something that cant be supported by fact.

[chippa13 1844]

The average American also carries more debt than they should. This thread isn't about what people do, it is about what people should do to save some money in the long run.

As for the second bolded sentence, there lies most peoples' problems and why they cannot save money. Just because you want something nicer does not mean you should be driving it. The mentality of entitlement is what puts most people in the hole in the first place.

"Gee, I can't buy that Lexus but I can lease it." instead of "Gee, I can't buy that Lexus but I can buy that Toyota" is a problem. If you lease then at the end of three years you still have to lay out money or enter a new lease. If you buy and are smart about your payments then in three years you have a car and no monthly payment.

The reality is when you start looking at repair bills for an older car there's really no savings. Cars are not designed to be on the road forever. So sure, you might not have the fixed monthly cost anymore, but when the wheel bearings have to be replaced along with the roters and brakes you're probably looking at 3 months worth of payments, or more, right there. The reality is cars are not a good asset, doesn't matter what means you chose to obtain one. What you should be driving is what you want to drive. If you want to drive crap so you can build a savings account, great for you. Of course, most people's money problems are actually the result of medical bills. Reality is, you can save all you want, a serious illness will make short work of your savings even after the insurance.

If you buy the Toyota, after you're done paying for it, paying to maintain it, paying to repair it, needing rental cars while it's in the shop, and whatever time lost due to the car breaking down, you will still arrive at the day where it's simply no longer worth the money it costs to fix it. You'll have to go out a buy another car and start the process all over again. There's going to be no signficant difference in costs between someone taking out lease cars, returning them, and getting new ones in the long haul. What little savings there would be doing it your way is, for most people, going to be greatly eclipsed by the enjoyment they got of out the cars. Not to mention it's much easier to budget for a fixed expense like a payment than it is to sit around wondering what month the car is going to go down in and how much it'll cost this time.

So reality is the best way to save money is to find a way to live without a car. I'm not sure how practical that is for most people, at least in the good old USA, but otherwise you're going to have signficant transportation related costs dealing with cars.

A well maintained car will last plenty long enough. I'm driving an Altima with 168,000 miles on it and still running fine. Sure, not a Mercedes but not an Adobe, either. In the last 2 years I have saved over $7,500 by not having a car payment anymore. In that same time I have spent a total of about $1,000 on the car including new tires and brakes. I think $6,500 is a nice trade-off for "suffering" in my 2003 Altima.

I don't know what you do to your cars but if you're wondering from day to day whether it will start then your problems run deeper than what you are driving.

[LkptTiger 1]

I'm driving an Altima with 168,000 miles on it and still running fine.

As a kid who just bought himself an Altima with 60,000 miles and in immaculate condition, that's good to hear.