Fighting

[Chadd 916]

..well I guess I'm never doing that again. What do they assess the penalty as anyway. Fighting own player?

I believe it is a game misconduct, it's in the situation manual.

[jds 20]

I picked this up today at Borders after seeing it recommended here. Between work and some other obligations I've gotten through the Forwards, Introduction, and Chapter One... I do not want to put it down.

I am looking to get a copy. I just find this whole thing kind of fascinating. I know I am probably out of the loop but it's kind of cool and unless you have done the fight thing it is like the best kept secret. Consider my opinion on fighting in a holding pattern until I read this book. I'm sure Betttman is breathing a sigh of relief knowing that I am reconsidering

[wrangler 157]

That book IS great

Seems to me a lot more players wanna get involved in an NHL fight, compared to the old days. Used to be two guys would start fighting, and each of the other skaters would grab hold of a guy on the other team, just pair up, and skate off to an open area of the ice. That way each player kept one guy off his fighting teammate's back.

These days, seems like everyone wants to crowd around and get involved. Maybe it had something to do with the way they used to have a designated enforcer on a team, what they called "a policeman on the ice"?

[IniNew 53]

That's exactly opposite of what I've seen. Now, more so than ever, there are fighters in the league. That's their only job, get on the ice for 4 minutes, get 10-12 in penalties. And when the two fighters from each club meet up, no one steps in. The only time its a large scrum is if two of the "superstars" or whatever you want to call them start shoving each other.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

What's with guys in the NHL fighting with their helmets and visors on ? I thought that was frowned upon, but it seemed like every other fight in the Blues/Ducks game last night featured someone still wearing his visor.

[BarDownGinos 3]

What's with guys in the NHL fighting with their helmets and visors on ? I thought that was frowned upon, but it seemed like every other fight in the Blues/Ducks game last night featured someone still wearing his visor.

Not sure if the NHL uses this rule, but in a lot of junior league around North America it's an extra penalty if you take off your own helmet. Guys used to take each others off before they started swinging but that part has devolved over the years to just punching a guy in the helmet for a while instead.

[Chadd 916]

The extra penalty in the NHL is for an instigator wearing a visor. Since they never call the instigator, and generally ignore the new visor rule the odd times they actually do call it, you never see the extra minor being handed out.

[lampliter87 8]

Few regular fighters wear visors, sometimes fights happen too quickly to have the time to remove your helmet. Simmonds, Iginla, and Backes come to mind as guys who wear visors and regularly take off their helmets before a fight.

[Lee-Bro 1]

Can't remember which game, but near the start of the season (maybe even pre-season) I remember watching a fight where the helmet strap got caught around the player's eyes as the helmet was sliding backward off the head. The other player could've easily got several shots in but he didn't. Instead he let up. I thought it was very classy not to take the cheap shots on someone who was so vulnerable.

IIRC, they gave each other the pat on the way to the box.

[lampliter87 8]

Simmonds takes his helmet off mid-fight... classy.

[BCheetham93 0]

Bought the book that was discussed. Very informative, kind of repetitive though. A good read nonetheless.

[Jason Harris 31]

Why isn't this aspect of fighting more widely discussed? It might shut up the detractors who don't understand "the CODE". I was never a fan of fighting (still not) but now that I am understanding that it is often not just unbridled aggression like a street fight I am starting to get it. Still can't get my head around the sportsman approach-probably conditioned from thinking it was two pissed off guys who lost their tempers.

Why isn't it more widely discussed? Probably because, to people who didn't grow up in the sport, there would be a lot less respect for "staged" fights than two pissed off guys who lost their tempers. And even to someone who grew up during the bench clearing brawls of the 70's, I have far better acceptance for guys who go at it because one felt the other made a dirty play, than I do for two guys continuing the tradition that I think costs hockey a significant amount of new fans.

Tonight's Bruins-Flyers game was a perfect example. Three-and-a-half minutes into the game, Thornton and Shelley obviously talked at the circle and went at it after the puck was dropped. As far as I know, there wasn't a carryover from the previous game, nor was there an incident during the first three shifts. And it was too early in the game for either side to need to boost emotion. Do we watch the fight with glee to see who wins. Sure, most of us do. Was it necessary? Not as far as I could tell.

[Chadd 916]

Was it necessary?

It is for a couple guys trying to keep their jobs for a few more years.

[wrangler 157]

It is for a couple guys trying to keep their jobs for a few more years.

Does it really make much of a difference?

[lampliter87 8]

Does it really make much of a difference?

If you're talking about two guys like Thornton and Shelley who's main role on the team is to fight, then absolutely.

[wrangler 157]

If you're talking about two guys like Thornton and Shelley who's main role on the team is to fight, then absolutely.

Well, I've been watching hockey for almost 50 years, and I can't say I get a lot of the fighting. Payback for dirty hits, I can see. A lot of the other stuff, I dunno. I remember John Ferguson and Bobby Hull going at it, seems like regularly, don't remember why. I'd just rather watch them play hockey.

[Jason Harris 31]

Tonight's Bruins-Flyers game was a perfect example. Three-and-a-half minutes into the game, Thornton and Shelley obviously talked at the circle and went at it after the puck was dropped. As far as I know, there wasn't a carryover from the previous game, nor was there an incident during the first three shifts. And it was too early in the game for either side to need to boost emotion. Do we watch the fight with glee to see who wins. Sure, most of us do. Was it necessary? Not as far as I could tell.

I was just reminded while reading in the notes for last night's game that Shelley had crosschecked Adam McQuaid into the boards the first time these teams played, so apparently this fight was a payback fight.

Still, with a choice between hockey or a premeditated fight, I tend to agree with Wrangler that I'd just rather see the game.

[iceNsteel 0]

Fighting has a place in the game, or at least to say that it is so ingrained into hockey culture I don't ever think we'll get to a point where fighting isn't part of the game. However, a huge amount of it comes down to fan service fights that serve no real purpose other than giving the people in the stands the fight they want to see. Which is fine to an extent, but not everyone wants to see the pointless fight. Not to mention I think it makes it difficult to market pro hockey to people that aren't accustomed to hockey culture.

[LkptTiger 1]

I never had too much respect for the guys who drop the gloves on a ridiculously-regular basis...until the first time I really dropped them for myself. I remember my first real tilt like it was yesterday - big vet comes in a tad late and a bit too high after I made a play coming off the boards just outside our blue line towards the end of a shift - I just wanted to get off the ice. Started to think about heading to the bench but decided instead that I wanted to send a message the "the scrawny American rookie" wasn't a push-over, so I gave him a pretty good whack across his ankle and followed him as he started to skate away, gave him a few good tugs. Dude turns to face me and I hold my arms out and shake my hands. I shit you not, the guy looked at me like I was crazy and said "You fuckin' serious, kid?". By this point, I had REALLY fired myself up and actually wanted to go. Pulled at my chinstrap and yelled "C'mon, bud". He literally just shrugged at me before dropping his sticks and gloves and tossing his helmet aside.

....I'll admit it - as soon as I got my helmet off and realized that I was backing-up out to center ice with a guy that EVERYONE in the building just knew was going to take me apart, I got pretty scared. I remember that my legs were shaking a bit and my heart was in my throat. I really didn't want to fight anymore. I remember thinking that I wanted to waive the whole thing off and pick my gloves, stick and helmet up off the ice - but I was all-in at that point.

The guy absolutely just fed me. I think I threw maybe five or six punches - only landed two, and he didn't even seem to notice them. He, on the other hand, had to have buried a good dozen shots into my forehead and cheeks (I had my chin tucked TIGHT) before I finally just tied him up and waited for the linesmen to step-in...while trying not to make it look like I was waiting for the linesmen to step-in, lol.

I had several more fight through Juniors and got slightly more comfortable ("less spooked" might be a better term) with each time. I usually held my own - although I'd only say I really won one fight...but it was a big win. At my size and given the fact that I've always been a more "finesse" player, I was always more concerned with the fact that I was willing to go more than I was with winning and losing the fights themselves. As an ex-NHL pest/fighter has said to me in the past - "Hey, you showed-up".

Fighting is exhausting - physically and emotionally. Win or lose, being willing to lay yourself on the line for your teammates can be a huge contribution to the team and can offer a great jump to the guys when a night just hasn't been going the way you want it to. Can't solve a goalie? Fire one at his head. Need a spark? Someone start a fight. I can also say that I've experienced the extra bit of confidence you get when you know you've got a big guy looking out for you. You play quite a bit bigger when you know someone who can throw is there for you. Like beer muscles. You can also see (and feel) that extra bit of grit show-up in players on the other teams when they've got one or two guys who can really handle themselves.

While there are several guys in The Show who don't belong there, I can say that I have all the respect in the world for a guy who signs on to take the role no one else wants. I don't care how much you want to pay me - I'm wouldn't want a job that would require me to fight guys like Carkner or Konopka on the odd night coach puts me in the line-up.

[AIREAYE 248]

It is for a couple guys trying to keep their jobs for a few more years.

Nah, Shelley just needs to regularly blast bullets top shelf like he did last night and he's fine

[bostonjuniorblackhawks 1]

I never had too much respect for the guys who drop the gloves on a ridiculously-regular basis...until the first time I really dropped them for myself. I remember my first real tilt like it was yesterday - big vet comes in a tad late and a bit too high after I made a play coming off the boards just outside our blue line towards the end of a shift - I just wanted to get off the ice. Started to think about heading to the bench but decided instead that I wanted to send a message the "the scrawny American rookie" wasn't a push-over, so I gave him a pretty good whack across his ankle and followed him as he started to skate away, gave him a few good tugs. Dude turns to face me and I hold my arms out and shake my hands. I shit you not, the guy looked at me like I was crazy and said "You fuckin' serious, kid?". By this point, I had REALLY fired myself up and actually wanted to go. Pulled at my chinstrap and yelled "C'mon, bud". He literally just shrugged at me before dropping his sticks and gloves and tossing his helmet aside.

....I'll admit it - as soon as I got my helmet off and realized that I was backing-up out to center ice with a guy that EVERYONE in the building just knew was going to take me apart, I got pretty scared. I remember that my legs were shaking a bit and my heart was in my throat. I really didn't want to fight anymore. I remember thinking that I wanted to waive the whole thing off and pick my gloves, stick and helmet up off the ice - but I was all-in at that point.

The guy absolutely just fed me. I think I threw maybe five or six punches - only landed two, and he didn't even seem to notice them. He, on the other hand, had to have buried a good dozen shots into my forehead and cheeks (I had my chin tucked TIGHT) before I finally just tied him up and waited for the linesmen to step-in...while trying not to make it look like I was waiting for the linesmen to step-in, lol.

I had several more fight through Juniors and got slightly more comfortable ("less spooked" might be a better term) with each time. I usually held my own - although I'd only say I really won one fight...but it was a big win. At my size and given the fact that I've always been a more "finesse" player, I was always more concerned with the fact that I was willing to go more than I was with winning and losing the fights themselves. As an ex-NHL pest/fighter has said to me in the past - "Hey, you showed-up".

Fighting is exhausting - physically and emotionally. Win or lose, being willing to lay yourself on the line for your teammates can be a huge contribution to the team and can offer a great jump to the guys when a night just hasn't been going the way you want it to. Can't solve a goalie? Fire one at his head. Need a spark? Someone start a fight. I can also say that I've experienced the extra bit of confidence you get when you know you've got a big guy looking out for you. You play quite a bit bigger when you know someone who can throw is there for you. Like beer muscles. You can also see (and feel) that extra bit of grit show-up in players on the other teams when they've got one or two guys who can really handle themselves.

While there are several guys in The Show who don't belong there, I can say that I have all the respect in the world for a guy who signs on to take the role no one else wants. I don't care how much you want to pay me - I'm wouldn't want a job that would require me to fight guys like Carkner or Konopka on the odd night coach puts me in the line-up.

I'm sure Dan Paille agrees with you on that one

[CAmmon 2]

Nah, Shelley just needs to regularly blast bullets top shelf like he did last night and he's fine

There is the problem, Shelley can't do it on a regular basis.

[Slapshot9123 0]

I've been in 2. One in a tryout. Lined up next to the draw and he asked me If I wanted to go. Totally respectable guy. Both dropped our gear and gave time to take our helmets off. Good fight we both got some good shots in then I got him off balance and knocked him down. Helped him back up, both gave each other a pat on the back and said good fight, good luck the rest of tryouts and what not.

The other was in a league game. Guy ran our goalie when he played the puck behind the net. All 5 guys on the ice were ready to go with him I just happened to be the first person there. He knew it was coming and had his helmet off before I did. I ended up pulling him towards me, he put his head down and I unloaded with a few uppercuts till he was down.

Tonight I was actually asked to go by a 3 year veteran after our team put in 3 goals unanswered being down 2-0. I told him no and he accepted my answer. Later in the game he actually came up to me and told me that he was just trying to get momentum for his team. It would have been a mismatch for me anyways he had about 3 inches on me and at least 30 pounds.

When it comes down to it playing now. There are guys who respect the act of fighting and there are tools who jump people and have no respect for the "fighting code"

[wrangler 157]

We hear that sometimes about NHL fights, too.

It's a rather interesting commentary on the professional athletes that they may not be able to motivate themselves without a fight to provide "momentum".

[lampliter87 8]

Tonight I was actually asked to go by a 3 year veteran after our team put in 3 goals unanswered being down 2-0. I told him no and he accepted my answer. Later in the game he actually came up to me and told me that he was just trying to get momentum for his team. It would have been a mismatch for me anyways he had about 3 inches on me and at least 30 pounds.

Smart move on your part... not because the guy could/would have beat you but exactly due to that momentum factor.