Wade Belak found dead

[troy 12]

This isn't going to be a popular position, but the NHL needs to ban fighting. There is no doubt that fighters are obviously having mental issues. The only question is if it is the job that is creating the problems or if only troubled people are willing/able to do that job. Until fighting can be ruled out as a contributing cause of these problems, the NHL should abolish fighting. It will take a concerted effort to hand out meaningful suspensions to curb unwanted stick work and cheap shots in the absence of fighters, and that is something the NHL has not shown in the past.

Do you think there would be a way to just eliminate the player who is employed strictly for fighting? Some sort of TOI and PIM calculation? I would really hate to see the abolishment of all fighting, because I find the best scraps to be those between two players that fight infrequently but for emotional, spur of the moment, reasons end up fighting.

[farhanshak 1]

This is horrible.

I heard the news yesterday driving home from work and couldn't believe it. I kept thinking someone got it all jumbled up and mixed up.

RIP Wade.

[EBondo 233]

Do you think there would be a way to just eliminate the player who is employed strictly for fighting? Some sort of TOI and PIM calculation? I would really hate to see the abolishment of all fighting, because I find the best scraps to be those between two players that fight infrequently but for emotional, spur of the moment, reasons end up fighting.

For instance, Mike Richards fighting Matt Cooke last year.

[skeeter14 0]

For instance, Mike Richards fighting Matt Cooke last year.

A bit off topic, but I was at that game, and it wasn't really spur of the moment. It was more a carry over from Richards comments the week before about Cooke in the post game. Emotional maybe, but not spur of the moment

[Neal 41]

This isn't going to be a popular position, but the NHL needs to ban fighting. There is no doubt that fighters are obviously having mental issues. The only question is if it is the job that is creating the problems or if only troubled people are willing/able to do that job. Until fighting can be ruled out as a contributing cause of these problems, the NHL should abolish fighting. It will take a concerted effort to hand out meaningful suspensions to curb unwanted stick work and cheap shots in the absence of fighters, and that is something the NHL has not shown in the past.

I agree with you Chadd. I'm not convinced there is enough concrete evidence that there is a connection between the job creating the troubles or that only the troubled being willing/able to do the job. But my gut feel is that you are right.

Also in my opinion, the NHL would receive enough positive PR if they banned fighting, especially premeditated fighting to greatly outweigh any loss in fans for whom fighting is the main draw to hockey. And yes, determining which fights are premeditated would be very difficult.

[RadioGaGa 162]

I don't think the existence of fighting in the game is the issue here. I think the issue is players who exist on the roster only to fight. They play 2-4 minutes a game and have to be ready to take a pounding when the shoulder gets tapped. As much as everyone always says the tough guys are great team mates...I'm sure when you only play 3 minutes a night it is hard to feel like you are really contributing to and are part of the team. They probably spend a good chunk of their time in a fair bit of pain given the way they are ordered to play...and seek solace in painkillers, booze, drugs or whatever else will make them feel better.

I'm sure we will hear at some point that Belak was having trouble to adjusting to the thought of life after hockey...all he had known for, what...close to 20 years (probably dedicating most of his life to hockey after about age 14-15). All young players, in all sports, who are capable of making Sport their living need to realize that 20 years Hall of fame careers with hundreds of Millions of dollars in salaries are few and far between. The average player is going to put together a 4-6 year NHL career (barring injury)...and have to have something else to dedicate their life by their late 20's or early 30's, depending how long they toil in the AHL/ECHL/CHL etc...making much less than the Crosby's and Ovechkin's of the hockey world.

Take hockey for example. 700 NHL roster spots. 700 for the how many THOUSAND players coming up that all want to be pros. Okay, consider the other Leagues. Say there are 400-500 jobs in each of the lower leagues...you are still looking at less than 3000 total professional hockey jobs available in North America. Not everyone is going to make it...and of the ones who do...not all are going to thrive and do it for 20 years.

I hope the people close to Crosby, David and Marc Savard (and any player recovering from a head/neck trauma) are paying close attention to them as they heal and decide what future (if any) they have in hockey. They are not the pugilist icing their knuckles at the end of the night...but they have sustained the same kind of damage and could be facing very young lives with hockey being taken away from them. If they are forced to leave the game behind...they could go through all the same stages and issues as Boogaard, Rypien and Belak have. Save, hopefully for the last one.

[jds 20]

I don't think the existence of fighting in the game is the issue here. I think the issue is players who exist on the roster only to fight. They play 2-4 minutes a game and have to be ready to take a pounding when the shoulder gets tapped. As much as everyone always says the tough guys are great team mates...I'm sure when you only play 3 minutes a night it is hard to feel like you are really contributing to and are part of the team. They probably spend a good chunk of their time in a fair bit of pain given the way they are ordered to play...and seek solace in painkillers, booze, drugs or whatever else will make them feel better.

I hope the people close to Crosby, David and Marc Savard (and any player recovering from a head/neck trauma) are paying close attention to them as they heal and decide what future (if any) they have in hockey. They are not the pugilist icing their knuckles at the end of the night...but they have sustained the same kind of damage and could be facing very young lives with hockey being taken away from them. If they are forced to leave the game behind...they could go through all the same stages and issues as Boogaard, Rypien and Belak have. Save, hopefully for the last one.

Well said. It seems that many enforcers, when pressed, admit they hated fighting but that was the only way for many of them to keep one of those 700 jobs. If that was the way to stay in the NHL then it was worth it. Again, I strongly recommend folks read The Code which features numerous interviews with former enforcers and really sheds light on how difficult it is for them. One quote I remember was that no kid starts in hockey thinking they will be an enforcer. They all want to score goals and get lots of ice time. Eventually some figure out that that isn't going to happen but if they can find a role as an enforcer then at least they are still in the show. No wonder they get disillusioned. Add to that, the constant pain, fear, nerves etc and it's not a great life NHL or not.

[Chadd 916]

The first two years post-lockout there was a significant decrease in fighting relative to previous years. Since then, the numbers are back up to pre-lockout levels. There is zero chance that teams will eliminate the "fighters" if left to make the decision on their own. Because they will not eliminate players whose only role doesn't involve the puck, there is no way to address those guys without addressing fighting as a whole. I've been saying that guys who get more PIMS than ice time should be suspended, but that doesn't mean that coaches will stop putting them out in that position and those guys will be put in an even worse position than they are now.

I understand the role fighting has had in the game, but I don't think it's worth the damage it appears to be doing to these guys. It's not like this is a new problem, but it certainly seems to be coming to a head. If the doctors and psychologists involved can say that fighting isn't the core problem, then the NHL can allow it back into the game. I just think that the NHL needs to do the right thing and limit the potential damage done until we know more.

My entertainment is not worth destroying the life, or quality of life, of another person and those around them.

[wrangler 157]

Two occasions for fighting come to mind.

1. To change momentum. I don't consider that a good reason to fight -- it's more an embarrassing admission of failure. Professionals should have the heart to bring it every night, without the need for a fight to stimulate them, or the possiblity of losing heart with the loss of a fight.

2. To avenge a cheap shot. Fighting doesn't cure this, it's just more rule-breaking and penalties. The appropriate fix here is for the officials to enforce the rules, and apply appropriate penalties. And if the rules have loopholes, close them. But over the years, the NHL has allowed the players to become part of the mechanism to curtail certain rule violations, ironically by allowing more rule violations. I find this ridiculous.

Unfortunately, the NHL's track record does not inspire much hope, no matter how many serious injuries, including concussions, occur. It would be a dramatic shift in direction and momentum for the league to really take this issue (and its rules) seriously, and impose sanctions tough enough to change behavior. I can't see the NHL overcoming its inertia within any reasonable time frame.

[jds 20]

2. To avenge a cheap shot. Fighting doesn't cure this, it's just more rule-breaking and penalties. The appropriate fix here is for the officials to enforce the rules, and apply appropriate penalties. And if the rules have loopholes, close them. But over the years, the NHL has allowed the players to become part of the mechanism to curtail certain rule violations, ironically by allowing more rule violations. I find this ridiculous.

From what I gather, this is the biggest reason that is brought up to support enforcers-to protect the better players from cheap shots. You hit the nail on the head. Close the damn loopholes and officiate more stringently and the cheap shot will be penalized without two "enforcers" having to settle things.

[ibeck 38]

Again, I strongly recommend folks read The Code which features numerous interviews with former enforcers and really sheds light on how difficult it is for them.

Along with the Code, I recommend reading Bob Probert's Tough Guy book. Shows exactly what some guys go through. Even one of the biggest and feared tough guys didn't want to go to the rink and fight on some days.

[-venom- 0]

Not to be an ass, but I think people are jumping the gun and assuming that his role as an enforcer and/or head injuries/mental whatever FROM hockey, had anything to do with his death.

Supposedly, he hung himself. Unless you've the ability to jump into his brain and figure out what he was thinking, or unless he left a suicide note, or confided into someone, it'd be fairly irresponsible to bang the "OMGZ HEADHOTZ" drum, just yet.

I don't disagree that players suffer long-term health issues when they've had concussions, etc - but these deaths? They're not caused by fighting. Boogaard was popping pills and drinking booze. No matter what his reasons were, his death was HIS fault. Taking painkillers and drinking is something you WILLINGLY CHOOSE TO DO. Not sure the whole story with Rypien, but if it's true about Wade? He willingly chose to hang himself. HIS choice. It's not like he had gremlins in his head, making him do it.

Like I said, I understand completely the player safety/long term concussion issues standpoint - but people are using these tragic events to try and justify their position, and wrongfully so.

Obviously, still have to wait and see with Wade, but until then, people need to stop blaming these deaths on the game, and putting the blame on the people themselves. These aren't choices forced upon them. These are conscious decisions. If this wasn't hockey, and was say.... football? Would we be blaming the game?

No. It'd be a lot of people blaming the guys themselves, partly because we feel that hockey players are different kinds of people, and therefore more "responsible" when it comes to matters like this, so it MUST be because of the things they can't control, like the game itself. And that's ridiculous....

[Jason Harris 31]

If this wasn't hockey, and was say.... football? Would we be blaming the game?.

Yes, we would, which is why the NFL has begun to crack down on hits to defenseless players.

Are we all conjecturing here? Sure, it's what a message board is.

But check out this LINK on CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) at the Sports Legacy Institute. As the page explains, CTE was first branded as such in 1966, although symptoms were mentioned as "punch drunk" as far back as 1928. However, it hasn't been widely known; even through 2009 only 49 cases (39 of them boxers) had been described in the medical literature, although it's beginning to be assumed that the occurrence of CTE is far greater. What's bringing CTE to the surface is the autopsies that SLI has performed on the brains of deceased athletes whose families donated their brains. Bob Probert was found to have CTE, as well as Dave Duerson, who shot himself yet had already arranged to donate his brain. There's also a good chance that the three enforcers this year will be found to have had CTE if their families donate their brains.

Taking a quote from the link: The brain degeneration is associated with memory loss, confusion, impaired judgment, paranoia, impulse control problems, aggression, depression, and, eventually, progressive dementia.

Purely conjecturing here, but do you think those mental deficiencies/ailments/illnesses/whatever might lead someone to make the unfortunate decision to take their life? And would it be fair to say the nature of their job could have led to multiple brain traumas and, ultimately, CTE?

[Chadd 916]

I'm not against fighting, I'm just saying that they need to find out if it is a major contributor or not. Until they figure it out, there's no need to potentially ruin more lives.

[Jason Harris 31]

2. To avenge a cheap shot. Fighting doesn't cure this, it's just more rule-breaking and penalties. The appropriate fix here is for the officials to enforce the rules, and apply appropriate penalties. And if the rules have loopholes, close them. But over the years, the NHL has allowed the players to become part of the mechanism to curtail certain rule violations, ironically by allowing more rule violations. I find this ridiculous.

You and I are both old enough to remember the bench clearing brawls of the 70's. I used to love them, but I've been saying for years now that the NHL has to get rid of the gratuitous fighting.

That said, closing the loopholes might not be enough, because stuff happens out of sight, although after-the-fact reviews and suspensions possibly could curtail these actions.

Two things on the NZ Tour sort of illustrate this. These guys didn't want to fight because most of them were buddies, but when told the crowd would be expecting it, some of the guys worked out agreements where they would swing wildly and punch each other's chest protectors to give a show. However, there turned out to be one legitimate scrum after Derek Armstrong gave a slash to a guy name Cody Lampl behind the play. In this instance, Cody went after Army, but what if it's the Zetterbergs of the world and a bone is broken? In today's game, there would be no penalty, because it happened out of sight, so the only retribution is the enforcer gently reminding the offender that those actions won't be allowed. If we take away the fighting -- which I am for overall -- the only way to stop this would be a suspension after viewing game tapes.

The second instance was kind of similar. A couple of the players told me between periods that we weren't making sure that sticks were down before dropping the puck, so I started paying attention to that in the second period. One faceoff, one of the players wouldn't put his stick down, so I told him to put it down. He refused, so I gave the signal for a new center. He refused to leave, so I gave the signal again. He finally left, but something happened, so I gave the signal for unsportsmanlike. He refused to leave, so I skated to the scorekeeper and called the penalty. As I skated back, Aaron Miller came up to me and apparently wondered why I would give an unsportsmanlike for a guy refusing to leave the faceoff.

"Why are you calling a penalty??"

"Because he slashed me."

"He slashed you???"

"Yeah!"

Same thing between periods, one of the guys asked me why I called it. When I told him why, he immediately agreed I had to call the penalty. After the game, the player called me over and apologized for losing his cool -- although it still didn't make up for the fact that the bastard shot me from fifteen feet away in paintball as we were walking to the start of the next game!

The point I'm making, other than it's a semi humorous story, is this guy slashed me in front of nine other players and none of them saw it. Imagine what happens behind the play in any game in the NHL?

I don't know how to fix this, because players don't police themselves but policing needs to be done, yet I think we're learning the policemen are paying tragic prices.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

Georges Laraque and Brantt Myhres were part of a podcast in Edmonton - good listen on what an enforcer's role/life is like in the NHL.

http://www.630ched.com/Podcasts/

Georges, who HATED fighting, still agrees it needs to be in the game.

[jschlenske 0]

Riley Cote also had this to say via his facebook:

"Someone needs to step in and speak up about these very preventable deaths. This absolutely crazy. These PILLS (painkillers) are mass produced, way over prescribed and are flooding the black market with pharmaceutically made, very highly addictive drugs. This is a growing epidemic all across North america. We need some action ASAP otherwise there will be plenty more of these sad stories."

[wrangler 157]

That said, closing the loopholes might not be enough, because stuff happens out of sight, although after-the-fact reviews and suspensions possibly could curtail these actions.

Sure, but it would be a good start for the officials to really do their jobs according to the rules. The referee has to see it to call it, but he should at least call what he sees, and not let serious infractions off with light penalties. I also remember the 60s/70s, when something outrageous would happen, and we'd all look immediately to the referee, who was pointedly examining something in the rafters, in the opposite direction, establishing his "I didn't see it".

Maybe we could live with the few violations that slipped through in the corners, and limit the retaliation to in kind, if we could eliminate the other stuff and the fighting.

[JPB_69 0]

Tragic, absolutely tragic. I'm looking at this a little differently than most of you, so I'll add this. A wife has lost her husband and two kids lost their dad. This is so sad. My heart is breaking for his family and friends.

[Neal 41]

I'm not against fighting, I'm just saying that they need to find out if it is a major contributor or not. Until they figure it out, there's no need to potentially ruin more lives.

Tragic, absolutely tragic. I'm looking at this a little differently than most of you, so I'll add this. A wife has lost her husband and two kids lost their dad. This is so sad. My heart is breaking for his family and friends.

These two posts sum my line of thought. There isn't a solid, inarguable reason why fighting has to be part of hockey. We may not be able to eliminate it if there is some aspect of the sport that makes an occasional fight impossible to avoid. I'd even be one to argue that this is the case, that there will always be some fights in hockey, especially at the highest, most pressure packed levels, with sufficient games.

But the number of fights can be substantially reduced and the number of premeditated, almost scripted fights can be nearly completely eliminated if the NHL bans fighting and implements a penalty structure correctly.

And that is worth doing because the consequences of fighting (concussions especially) are seemingly so severe. Was Mr. Belak's death related to head trauma? I don't know. But the league needs to be seen to be doing everything in its power to prevent more wives' losing their husbands and kids' losing theirs dads.

[-venom- 0]

Yes, we would, which is why the NFL has begun to crack down on hits to defenseless players.

Are we all conjecturing here? Sure, it's what a message board is.

But check out this LINK on CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) at the Sports Legacy Institute. As the page explains, CTE was first branded as such in 1966, although symptoms were mentioned as "punch drunk" as far back as 1928. However, it hasn't been widely known; even through 2009 only 49 cases (39 of them boxers) had been described in the medical literature, although it's beginning to be assumed that the occurrence of CTE is far greater. What's bringing CTE to the surface is the autopsies that SLI has performed on the brains of deceased athletes whose families donated their brains. Bob Probert was found to have CTE, as well as Dave Duerson, who shot himself yet had already arranged to donate his brain. There's also a good chance that the three enforcers this year will be found to have had CTE if their families donate their brains.

Taking a quote from the link: The brain degeneration is associated with memory loss, confusion, impaired judgment, paranoia, impulse control problems, aggression, depression, and, eventually, progressive dementia.

Purely conjecturing here, but do you think those mental deficiencies/ailments/illnesses/whatever might lead someone to make the unfortunate decision to take their life? And would it be fair to say the nature of their job could have led to multiple brain traumas and, ultimately, CTE?

In hockey players, specifically "enforcers", I think you're discounting the fact that most of them already have something in them that makes them okay with eating knuckles to the face for a paycheck. Football players generally all have the same risks, for the most part. It's not like hockey, where a guy can willingly CHOOSE to fight basically, for a living. It's like working with sharks, and volunteering the be the guy that swims with a steak on his back, just for the paycheck.

There's a large difference between guys injured via big/bad hits to the head, and guys who willingly do it for a paycheck.

I mean, look at boxers - there's no secret that repeated blows to the head aren't good.

But the guys we're talking about here are closer to boxers than they are to the general sample of hockey players. It's sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison, using enforcers as your sample for degenerative brain effects. Of course their brains are scrambled eggs.

[Chadd 916]

But the guys we're talking about here are closer to boxers than they are to the general sample of hockey players. It's sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison, using enforcers as your sample for degenerative brain effects. Of course their brains are scrambled eggs.

And why should that be ok?

I don't know how to fix this, because players don't police themselves but policing needs to be done, yet I think we're learning the policemen are paying tragic prices.

The only way to make it work is to hand out serious suspensions and fines like the NFL has been doing. It will mean more people watching video in the NHL offices and a couple minor rule tweaks but it can be done without the league degenerating into one cheap shot after another. The NHL would have to be very strict with suspensions and it would require the standards to be far lower than they are right now. Of course, that's exactly why it won't happen.

[ktang 34]

From www.sportsnet.ca:

Mother: Belak suffered from depression

[JGraz15 53]

Another twist from PJ Stock

"Let's just call it an accidental death right now. But he did die of strangulation,"

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy

[-venom- 0]

And why should that be ok?

Maybe because it's these guys' choice to be enforcers?

(doesn't necessarily mean thaty it's "ok"... moreso, it's more on them, than from something they can't do anything about"

Hockey is the only sport I can think of, in which guys can actually be "not skilled enough" to make a team, yet make it because of their ability to fight.

So guys realize they're not good enough talent-wise to make the big show, and take on the enforcer role to get a better crack at the NHL. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads, here... these guys make a conscious choice to fill that role.

Now, I don't necessarily disagree that the NHL would be well-advised to make an attempt to remove that particular role from the game... I think it's pretty clear who the "guys who can fight" (Iginla comes to mind), and goons. But how do you quantify which is which?

All that said, my original point still remains... people can't apply the head-injury discussion to all of these deaths. Doing so would be irresponsible.