Blade Alignment to help Pronation when skating

[Hockeydog 8]

Thanks for the feedback ! When I look back at the skates that have given me fits, it definately seems like a combination of things as well. My biggest issue is that my right foot is almost a half size smaller than my left. Add to that skates with a wide heel, and wider mid-foot and pronation results. Supremes are the least problematic for me, likely because of the higher arch, but I get arch pain from them if I tie the laces with any amount of tension. Superfeet do not alliviate that pain. I don't know if a half size difference in length warrants going custom, but I don't really need a skate that stiff, although at this point it would have been cheaper to go straight to custom skates!

[Davetronz 109]

Thanks for the feedback ! When I look back at the skates that have given me fits, it definately seems like a combination of things as well. My biggest issue is that my right foot is almost a half size smaller than my left. Add to that skates with a wide heel, and wider mid-foot and pronation results. Supremes are the least problematic for me, likely because of the higher arch, but I get arch pain from them if I tie the laces with any amount of tension. Superfeet do not alliviate that pain. I don't know if a half size difference in length warrants going custom, but I don't really need a skate that stiff, although at this point it would have been cheaper to go straight to custom skates!

Exact same problem here with a 1/4-1/2 size larger left foot.

I also feel the best on Bauers, unfortunately I get zero ankle lock, so they're out of the question.

I found that rather going custom, it was better to fit to my smaller foot, then get the boot with the larger foot stretched until it fit properly.

All of the trusted resources around here told me to stay away from custom unless I had major issues that needed attention, such as EXTREMELY wide feet.

[Hockeydog 8]

Can modern skates like a Bauer Supreme be stretched? I have read both that they can and that they can't, or that the gains are tempoary.

That could be a lifesaver if streatching is a viable tool.

[Vet88 674]

Any skate can be stretched but it's the composition of the boot that determines how well the stretch lasts. Buy a bottom end skate and stretching generally damages the structure of the skate. Buy a top end skate and you can stretch it by up to a cm in width and around 1/2 a cm in length and it will last for years.

I always buy a D and stretch my boots out to just short of an EE, this way I can get the perfect width for my feet, as good as a custom boot fit. Your LHS should be able to stretch boots for you but if you are the kind who wants to give these things a go then a pair of c clamps, lengths of wood and with lots of time you can get some amazing results.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Vet88

[Jason 65]

I think the best way to correct your problem (I have the same issue) is to mount the right holder inside a bit and also toe in a bit more and then maybe add a shim on the outside of the holder. I tried propping my arch up a bit more, but it didn't seem to do the trick.

[MR MIZUN0 0]

I was diagnosed with pronation in both of my feet, the right foot being a bit more severe than the left.....had orthotics made for my shoes, and they make a huge difference in my shoes. The problem being that they dont fit in my skates. Playing at a competitive level (college club acha) after practices or games pain develops along the outsides of my feet just below my little toes to about an inch. I have yellow superfeet in a pair of x60's that seem to provide some help, but not enough. To correct my pronation, would a gift card (for a shim) be too thick? I was told that my pronation was severe by an podiatrist.

[Vet88 674]

Orthotics in skates don't help, in shoes they work because they are sitting flat on the ground but in a skate there is nothing for the orthotic to lever off to straighten the foot. You have to try and find someone who understands the mechanics of a foot in an ice skate and can either realign the holder for you or shim it correctly.

However there is another possible option which has worked for me. I have been previously diagnosed with bad pronation in my right foot, medium in my left. Got new Rbk 11k's in December and over the last 5 months I have been skating with loosely tied skates, and as my skating has got used to this (and improved) I have progressively continued to loosen the laces. My ankles have increased in strength and my pronation has reduced drastically to the point I don't worry about it now. I am skating 2 - 3 hours every day which in itself has really helped but I have been really surprised at how my pronation has all but disappeared, in both roller and ice. Admittedly if I do a lot of inside edge work on both skates at the same time I can feel the feet starting to turn in the boot after about 5 minutes so I just have to manage this during training and game time. If you only skate once or twice a week then I doubt this would help you but if you can put in the serious hours then this may help.

[Jordan 13]

Orthotics in skates don't help,

Vet88...they may not have worked for you but they do work for many people, including my daughter. In fact I know of olympic level figure skaters using orthotics. They won't necessarily be the answer for everybody but they shouldn't be ignored as a possible solution.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Jordan

[BethG 0]

My son (9) has flat feet, some pronation & now what seems to be a moderate case of *planters faciitis*. He has been skating approx 5 days a week (games, power skating, performance clinics, stick & puck) & been running at school to prepare for field day, which I think took him over the edge. The skating alone seemed fine. I have read some of the discussions on this site & I am wondering what kids' skates work best for narrow feet, pronation, & heel issues. We are going to an orthopedic doc @ Georgetown Univ. hospital on Monday since his left heel is slightly swollen & somewhat painful. It just happened out of the blue & we are resting it, though SQUIRT travel try-outs continue tommorow...His current skates are Easton EQ50. I read a little about GRAF custom molded insoles & baking the skates twice. I don't feel I've done enough given I knew his feet were flat. Now I am trying to eliminate his problems before they get worse. He loves hockey! Any suggestions or similar experiences?

[wrangler 157]

The best recommendation I've seen here is to see a foot doctor who has some experience and knowledge in the skating area.

As to skates, many can be ordered in narrow sizes, but they vary in depth and horizontal shape, which are very important. The standard advice is to try on as many as you can, to find the best fit you can.

How do his EQ50s fit?

[BethG 0]

Thanks for posting. His EQ50s fit very well. Never had an issue until now. Fitted/baked @ pro-shop @ rink. Recommended for narrower feet. They are beginning to get small, so he has a 2nd pair for our synthetic ice (Easton S17s) which we have been encouraging him to use but, he doesn't like them as well. (They are newer & slightly larger.) It seems Easton works pretty well for him. I think he needs some sort of insert that will soften up the skate at the heel area. If you feel inside the skate, it is hard as a rock. Plus, his Nikes for running (for PE) don't have any add'l support. Need to add it there too. Maybe all of his shoes. Will see pediatric foot specialist doc Monday @ Georgetown Hospital.

[wrangler 157]

That's a good place to start. As you can see from several threads here, people use orthotics, shims, blade repositioning, custom boots, etc., so it's hard to say what's best for your son.

If the EQ50 fits well, that's what counts. As to skate models being recommended for narrower feet, that's a new one on me. I haven't heard of anything recommended for narrower feet, except a narrower size. Folks generally seem to choose a skate boot to fit the shape of the foot, as different models are shaped differently.

[Vet88 674]

Vet88...they may not have worked for you but they do work for many people, including my daughter. In fact I know of olympic level figure skaters using orthotics. They won't necessarily be the answer for everybody but they shouldn't be ignored as a possible solution.

You are right, I should have tempered my answer with "orthotics / pronation / ice hockey in the main don't work". Yes, if you have a mild case you may get away with orthotics. For medium to severe cases then you will be looking for a different answer, especially if you play ice hockey.

BethG - ask the doc if he can recommend you to someone who knows about fitting feet with problems into ice skates. Do consider the Graf range of skates, they are one of the few models around (outside of a custom boot) that have variations in boot shape so you can purchase a skate to match a foot.

[Davetronz 109]

If the EQ50 fits well, that's what counts. As to skate models being recommended for narrower feet, that's a new one on me. I haven't heard of anything recommended for narrower feet, except a narrower size. Folks generally seem to choose a skate boot to fit the shape of the foot, as different models are shaped differently.

The EQ50 works well for my pronation, narrow ankle and mid-foot, and semi-wide forefoot. In the Easton line I always need a punch near the ball of each foot, but they seem to fit quite well everywhere else. Almost all other skates (aside from CCM Tacks) are a slopfest on my feet with too wide of an ankle, too narrow of a toe cap, and often additional problems with volume. I have a low volume ankle, but an average to high instep volume. Rather than trying to find skates that fit me properly, maybe I should try to find a pair of new feet - might be easier!

[John Lake 1]

Seems you have several issues that need to dealt with in order to accomodate your pronation. Starting with your foots arch. Not all skate geometry is alike and manufacturers offer various models, each having their own design traits. Some skates are designed for feet with high and or narrow arches, while others are for flatter, wider instep.

A good skate fitter should be able to fit you with the proper skate for your feet. Thats the first step. Sizing is extremely important!

The insole plays a major role in positioning your foot within the boot cavity and as we all know, stock insoles leave a lot to be desired and this is where aftermarket products such as SuperFeet come into play.

It's unfair to think that a skate manufacturer can supply an insole that fits everyones feet.

A good rule of thumb is, if you don't require an orthotic in your regular, everyday footwear, you don't need them in your skates as they (the skates) supply extremely high support and also help with lower extremity alignment.

In the late 90's an atricle was written and delivered to the PHATS/SPHEM organizations addressing this topic, by one of the top re-constructive knee surgeons in North America who works with NHL NBA NFL players. Dr Copoloff makes it very clear that blade alignment is critical and that it must be centered under the foot. Moving the holder may help to straighten a protated foot, but in turn places more pressure on the ACL's while doing crossovers. So in reality, you are only trading one problem for a much larger one.

In a skate application, pelvic misalignment (causing pronation) is greatly affected by the skate blade specs and mounting location. Omega contouring is the only way to eliminate these variables and reduce stress on the kinetic chain.

Summary: properly fitted skates for your foots requirements, install quality insoles, Proper contouring, Still pronate, then see a specialist.

Edited May 18, 2012 by JR Boucicaut
removed plug for store

[flyrzman 0]

I've been wearing orthotics in skates for years. I initially got them to ease the pain in my bauer skates, however my skating has gotten worse over the years and I felt off balance often. I just attributed it to getting older and not playing as often. When I got new RBK skates two years ago I just moved my orthotics into them without even thinking about it, however, I recently took them out to see how much they were actually helping. Without them in I have much better balance and control and I;m actually much more comfortable in my skates. With the othotic I alwas felt like I was standing on an orthotic in a boot - now my skates are very comfortable. The only problem is I do still pronate and in turn have lost some speed because I'm always on my inside edges a little. I was thinking about trying to get the blades moved in but after seeing the above post I'm not sure, I also don't know if there is anyone near me that is qualified to move the blades. Any suggestions? I'd hate to go back to orthotics. Would a much stiffer boot help? I have 2010 RBK 10s now and they're pretty stiff.

[smu 29]

"In a skate application, pelvic misalignment (causing pronation) is greatly affected by the skate blade specs and mounting location. Omega contouring is the only way to eliminate these variables and reduce stress on the kinetic chain."

John, I have had problems over the years always needing a deep hollow or I could not stand up. People attribute that to my 130lb frame and height of 5'6". Now I am still the same weight, much older and apparently an inch or two shorter! I had a disk problem leading to 2 months of severe right leg sciatica, in 2006, after that I had increased problems with my skating ability. In 2008 I stopped a shot on my problem foot on the inside on my right ankle and dragged myself around for 2 months. After that I was told I had a pronation problem in that foot and orthotics seemed to help the problem, but not as good as I had enjoyed skating before. Last year in November 2012 I had another episode of sciatica and again in the right foot, but soon after my podiatrist indicated that my left foot had been effected by this right footed sciatica?

I have gone to Superfeet that has just about fixed the original right foot, but not the left nor did any orthotic. I added some shims inside the boot in the proper place and I am just recently feeling a bit better about my skating.

I am writing this as I have wondered about problems associated with my pelvis, O/A in my S1-L5, my sciatica, sliding disks (L4-L5) and bulging disks etc.

Also the shot I took off the ankle bone only to find out just this summer my tibia is out of whack, Talotarsus syndrome. Spelling may be wrong.

This was the first post I saw that may relate to my problem of pelvis etc. and feel you may know more than is in the post.

My pronation seems to be in the state of flux - ever changing. I mentioned in several posts that you cannot buy skates now and shift the blades, there is no room in the heel area that allows for any movement.

The skate, MLX, designed by Mike Cunningham had the ability to slide the holders sideways to compensate for pronation, but when the skate was sold to Easton (Mako) they did not bother to include this wonderful feature.

If there is any advice you can give me I would appreciate it.

Thanks - Alan Sheppard

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Seeing as I do not sell skates anymore I am happy to assist in a fitting for people in the GTA. I can offer fitting advice and a possible shop in your area to try on some different models. So far things have worked very well for those getting their new skates!

[Jordan 13]

I can vouch for OTG...he fixed my sons blades recently. He noticed a problem and got things dialed in immediately. Go see him!

http://proskatecorner.ca/

[smu 29]

Seeing as I do not sell skates anymore I am happy to assist in a fitting for people in the GTA. I can offer fitting advice and a possible shop in your area to try on some different models. So far things have worked very well for those getting their new skates!

I have not been on the site for awhile and not to far up on these post you can see me complaining!

I still have pronation problems and the doctors tell me that I do not have flat feet or to any real degree. Yet I went to a foot specialist that does orthotics (I have had them and they work for a while) and he said my arches are fine I don't need orthotics but took out my superfeet that happend to be in my skates at that time and inserted a shaven wedge on the heel and stuffed some dense foam under the arch part of the footpad. I tried to ask has this got anything to do with my sciatica and thus pelvis problems as I think they do, but I did not get a good answer. I tried the skates and my fixed skate was great and had to go back for him to adjust the left superfeet insole. That did not help. Now back to having the blade placed so that my center of gravity is directly over the blade. I decided to do this last year and picked out a pair of Baur skates and then the guy that was going to do the blade alignment said he could not do it as there was not enough room to move the back of the holder. What can I do or which skate can I get so I can make an adjustement. I have gone all this year switching orthotics and placing plastic strips inside the skates near the heel to give me a slant. I can't get properly balanced and find it hard to get footing when I go to pass or when around the net standing nearly still my balance sucks. There have been a few games that I have had all the confidence in the world as my skates were in sync. Do orthoyics wear out that fast or is my pelvis constantly changing? When I am told I have no pronation problem I am standing. But, I have learnded that when I have my skates on (in the house experimenting with insoleses etc) and loosley tied my rear tendon guards fall inwards when I start to squat, meaning I do overpronate when I am plaing hockey with knees bent. I am in Halifax NS and if anyone can give me some help I would really appreciate it. I am 66 and have had this yo-yo of a problem for about 6 years now and I am getting sick of it. I lost almost all of last year, with this year not too much different. I have a few more good years left in me but I want to enjoy them playing hockey. Sorry for the rant, but I am frustrated. Someone please help, I know I can play hockey a hell of a lot better than I do, yet guys say I skate really well, but also see me falling often and they are used to seeing me before I had the problem but don't understand it. Thanks - Alan

Edited April 22, 2015 by smu

[smcgreg 81]

I have not been on the site for awhile and not to far up on these post you can see me complaining!

I still have pronation problems and the doctors tell me that I do not have flat feet or to any real degree. Yet I went to a foot specialist that does orthotics (I have had them and they work for a while) and he said my arches are fine I don't need orthotics but took out my superfeet that happend to be in my skates at that time and inserted a shaven wedge on the heel and stuffed some dense foam under the arch part of the footpad. I tried to ask has this got anything to do with my sciatica and thus pelvis problems as I think they do, but I did not get a good answer. I tried the skates and my fixed skate was great and had to go back for him to adjust the left superfeet insole. That did not help. Now back to having the blade placed so that my center of gravity is directly over the blade. I decided to do this last year and picked out a pair of Baur skates and then the guy that was going to do the blade alignment said he could not do it as there was not enough room to move the back of the holder. What can I do or which skate can I get so I can make an adjustement. I have gone all this year switching orthotics and placing plastic strips inside the skates near the heel to give me a slant. I can't get properly balanced and find it hard to get footing when I go to pass or when around the net standing nearly still my balance sucks. There have been a few games that I have had all the confidence in the world as my skates were in sync. Do orthoyics wear out that fast or is my pelvis constantly changing? When I am told I have no pronation problem I am standing. But, I have learnded that when I have my skates on (in the house experimenting with insoleses etc) and loosley tied my rear tendon guards fall inwards when I start to squat, meaning I do overpronate when I am plaing hockey with knees bent. I am in Halifax NS and if anyone can give me some help I would really appreciate it. I am 66 and have had this yo-yo of a problem for about 6 years now and I am getting sick of it. I lost almost all of last year, with this year not too much different. I have a few more good years left in me but I want to enjoy them playing hockey. Sorry for the rant, but I am frustrated. Someone please help, I know I can play hockey a hell of a lot better than I do, yet guys say I skate really well, but also see me falling often and they are used to seeing me before I had the problem but don't understand it. Thanks - Alan

Hi SMU, I think we've corresponded on this topic before. To address your point about not having flat feet, but still "pronating" in skates, I have a similar situation. I actually have fairly high arches in both feet, but only "pronate" in the right skate. After a fair bit of work on the skates and evaluating myself, the source of my issue has been a progressive valgus (knock kneed) evolution of my right leg with age. Because my right knee bends medially (toward the middle) it causes my center of mass to be over the inside of the skate versus the left side, which is not valgus. Further, it is exacerbated when I bend my knees. My point is, you may not have flat feet or even "pronate" in shoes, but due to other anthropometric changes with age, your center of mass may have changed over the years relative to the skate blade.

I've tried many of the things you have, and most recently, I've placed about 3 mm of shimms on the outside/lateral part of the skate between the boot and holder. This has effectively raised the right skate so much that I have had to go with two different pitches on my Mako IIs. I have a (-1 profile) on the left and a (-3 profile) on the right. So, one thing to think about is if you are shimming, that may be throwing off your balance between sides apart from the "pronation" issue. (I put pronation in quotes, because in my case, it's really not pronation, but results in the same effect).

To get back to the blade alignment issue, I have the same problem in my Mako IIs. I have put in T-nuts so, I can easily shim or remove and was planning to use them to facilitate moving the blade medially (toward the center line), but there just isn't enough room on the boot to drill new holes and move the holder. So, trying to think about different skates now that may allow me to do so. I love the fit of the Mako though, so, it would be tough to change, but I am very sick of not being over my blade on one foot, when things are perfect on the other.

I'll keep you posted on anything I come up with. Please do the same.

[Vet88 674]

If you are looking for boots that you can adjust the holder in (and not going the custom route with someone like VH) then look at Grafs. The way the Cobra holder is designed and the manner in which Graf mounts it on the boot means you can easily move it inwards by up to 2mm.

If you have a little bit of handyman skills and a drill or rat tail file you can easily do it yourself. If you want any more info send me a pm.

Because of how the holder is designed and mounted on most other brands (Bauer, Easton, CCM etc) moving the holder is not really possible. If you want to stay in the boot then you need to consider changing the holder for another brand like the Cobra 5000 and then redrilling the boot.

[smu 29]

Greg, I will let you know what I find out, but the post after yours by Vet has some suggestions.

I'll keep you posted on anything I come up with. Please do the same.

Alan

[smu 29]

If you are looking for boots that you can adjust the holder in (and not going the custom route with someone like VH) then look at Grafs. The way the Cobra holder is designed and the manner in which Graf mounts it on the boot means you can easily move it inwards by up to 2mm.

If you have a little bit of handyman skills and a drill or rat tail file you can easily do it yourself. If you want any more info send me a pm.

Because of how the holder is designed and mounted on most other brands (Bauer, Easton, CCM etc) moving the holder is not really possible. If you want to stay in the boot then you need to consider changing the holder for another brand like the Cobra 5000 and then redrilling the boot.

Vet,

I looked at the Graaf skate last year and there was no room in the heel. I have to admit they were juniors hopefully that is not a problem as I take a 7 shoe and a size 5 skate.

If I have to look for another pair I have to be assured that I can have someone do the fix. This looks like my only true option.

Thanks for the reply,

Alan

[busdriver 6]

Resurrecting this thread to ask if any pronators out there experience pain at the top of their boot along the outside of the ankle at the very top of the boot where it seems to pinch a nerve. 
 

Wondering if I should increase my arch support and put some stabilizing wedges under the inside of my heel. I use the speed plates and would re-mold them with the arch and support underneath.   I haven’t seen any talk of shimming skate holders in years since most skates became heat moldable. These are the wedges I’m looking at along with an arch support.

www.tognar.com/amp/ski-boot-fitting-heel-wedges-pr/

I also get pain under the ball of my foot where it just feels like I grind my ball into the hard baseplate of the skate. Maybe more arch support would help. (My shoes always wear out first under the ball of my foot but my resting stance is with my toes pointed out to the sides so I tend to roll off of the ball rather than the end of my toes.) 

Or maybe my ankles are just weak. Any good exercises out there to fix the pain at the top of the boot?

Edited June 14, 2020 by busdriver