Make sure sharpener doesn't mess up profile

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

I don't think you can compare rental steel blades to stainless steel blades.

Sure I can - local rink has Riedell rentals with Canstar Tuuk Plus holders/steel on them. :) They used to have the ones with Perfectas on there too!

[DarkStar50 680]

The exception to the rule for most rental skates I've seen.

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

LOL yeah...there were a lot of sz 11 boot-only rentals when I used to work there...

All I am saying is I think I understand what he is trying to say. Skates with a lot of nicks, especially in the toe, the steel gets bruised and deformed.

[jimmy 194]

I think you guys are looking at his comment wrong...not that the ice is re-shaping the steel, but the constant banging - kicking the boards, banging the toe of the skate into the ice, things like that.

It is possible - look at your rink rentals...

Ice cannot change a profile and it barely dulls blades (most dulling occurs from off ice). Anyway, as you stated, the banging, the nicks, well those need to be ground out to reestablish edges. This "extra" work can and does alter the profile.

[Chadd 916]

In my 30+ years of sharpening, I have never noticed it. I don't even see how it is possible that steel could lose a profile coming into contact with ice when actually the steel creates a film of water that the blade glides on the ice with. Chadd, please explain the science of this. Jimmy, what do you think? Ever see this in your experience, the ability of ice to re-shape steel?

I've put skates back on the jig a couple weeks after being profiled and seen changes to the profile. Small changes to be sure, but changes none the less.

[ibeck 38]

Easily. You just don't cross-grind. I only turned that switch on if I was doing a profile, sometimes on a new skate.

So then you go on the hopes your edges came out even assuming the previous sharpening had even edges?

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

Not necessarily. I like to establish a hollow, remove skate and check, hone, then refine the edge with additional passes.

However, there are things that you learn that you look (and even hear) for that determine your edges are even, or at least very close to it. Spark displacement is one. You can feel when a blade isn't level to the wheel during your pass. That all comes with experience.

Even a tap test on a previously sharpened un-crossground skate isn't accurate; the previous skate may have uneven edges, rendering the process moot. If you know your holder is well within the neighborhood, just sharpen away and adjust along the way.

[ibeck 38]

touche

[danno25nh 3]

I just received new steel today for my Eastons from Jimmy. Pulled out the steel that had only been done by the local shop. Putting them together I found the difference between the two skates to be drastic. Over 1/4 inch difference in shape between the two when aligned at the screw holes and notch. No wonder I was struggling with them. My new steel was nearly identical when compared the same way.

For grins I pulled the steel from my MLX's and compared. Again major differences between the two blades. I've disliked the MLX blades since day one. I suspect this may be why. When I had similar issues with the EQ's I suspected profile issues.

Now to decide if I stick with Easton holders and steel on the MLX or try to switch to LS2s

[JJStripes 1]

Guys I'm new to this sharpening profile, cross grinding issue. I'm a rec skater, play adult hockey 1-2 x's a week. I have a pair of Graf's that I bought a month ago and the LHS talked me into trying the FBV sharpening. I tried it, skated a few times on it and lost an edge. I couldn't take them back to the original shop because they were 4 hours away. I took them to my LHS for resharpening, but they don't do the FBV sharpening. I asked them to sharpen them with 1/2" radius and he said that he would have to cross grind and then resharpen to the asked for radius. Is this normal?? I'm reading previous posts and I'm seeing never to cross grind. Did I make a mistake allowing them to do this?? Again, I'm new to this subject..thanks

That is not normal. You can switch back and forth between FBV and regular without doing anything in between. The only time you should cross grind is when you need a lot of steel taken off. Times to cross grind:

-new steel to get them rockered (profiled)

-older steel to get past deep nicks in the edges or heavy rust

-older steel to correct the gradual changes in the profile that resulted from people repeatedly pressing too hard at the start and end of the sharpening pass.

That's about it.

So, you did make a mistake, but if when you got back on your skates you didn't notice any issues with the profile (falling backwards or forwards) then he didn't mess anything up. It's possible that the cross grinding he did might have made the profile better for you.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

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That is not normal. You can switch back and forth between FBV and regular without doing anything in between. The only time you should cross grind is when you need a lot of steel taken off. Times to cross grind:

-new steel to get them rockered (profiled)

-older steel to get past deep nicks in the edges or heavy rust

-older steel to correct the gradual changes in the profile that resulted from people repeatedly pressing too hard at the start and end of the sharpening pass.

That's about it.

So, you did make a mistake, but if when you got back on your skates you didn't notice any issues with the profile (falling backwards or forwards) then he didn't mess anything up. It's possible that the cross grinding he did might have made the profile better for you.

I would have to disagree with the first part. Going from FBV to Reg hollow is no issue but to get the best hollow in the steel its always best to do a very light crossgrind following the profile to put the FBV in from a regular Hollow it will last longer and feel better from sharpening #1.

[dw9509 0]

Thanks for the reply JJ and otg28. Is there a way to check the profile on skates? I read somewhere that if you stand your skate up on a flat surface and look at the blade from the side, there should be only 2-3 inches of the blade in contact with the surface. Thanks

[forbs02 20]

Not necessarily. I like to establish a hollow, remove skate and check, hone, then refine the edge with additional passes.

However, there are things that you learn that you look (and even hear) for that determine your edges are even, or at least very close to it. Spark displacement is one. You can feel when a blade isn't level to the wheel during your pass. That all comes with experience.

Even a tap test on a previously sharpened un-crossground skate isn't accurate; the previous skate may have uneven edges, rendering the process moot. If you know your holder is well within the neighborhood, just sharpen away and adjust along the way.

If I'm doing a pair of skates that I didn't sharpen last I will check the edges first to see if they are level and then do the tap test. If the skate has a high inside edge, I adjust my holder accordingly. I tap every pair of skates I sharpen, it just helps me to make sure my holder is set right so I will get even edges when I'm finished.

[cujofan31 0]

In my 30+ years of sharpening, I have never noticed it. I don't even see how it is possible that steel could lose a profile coming into contact with ice when actually the steel creates a film of water that the blade glides on the ice with. Chadd, please explain the science of this. Jimmy, what do you think? Ever see this in your experience, the ability of ice to re-shape steel?

Skating alone, its impossible to remove steel. Sharpening tip to toe too often will have the greatest effect in mis-shaping a blade.

How do you know that your cross grind pass came out even?

We have a very small ruler we use when we profile blades so that would give you a definitive answer. Typically as long as your pass is of consistant speed & pressure it will be even.

What should you say to your LHS sharpener to make sure he does not mess up your profiling job

Try not to be too OCD about it, all I need is some hockey hypochondriac getting bent out of shape over nothing, not that I will ever intentionally send out a bad pair, but I will try to get you out a whole lot quicker...

Guys I'm new to this sharpening profile, cross grinding issue. I'm a rec skater, play adult hockey 1-2 x's a week. I have a pair of Graf's that I bought a month ago and the LHS talked me into trying the FBV sharpening. I tried it, skated a few times on it and lost an edge. I couldn't take them back to the original shop because they were 4 hours away. I took them to my LHS for resharpening, but they don't do the FBV sharpening. I asked them to sharpen them with 1/2" radius and he said that he would have to cross grind and then resharpen to the asked for radius. Is this normal?? I'm reading previous posts and I'm seeing never to cross grind. Did I make a mistake allowing them to do this?? Again, I'm new to this subject..thanks

I will typically give the blade a quick cross grind pass if i know im going from FBV to conventional or vice versa just because the shape is different and it will just help speed things along. Don't be too worried about the whole "OMG he's crossgrinding my skates!" As long as they're only doing a few passes every once in a while, you'll be fine.

[wetwilly17 6]

if a profile is changing over time, it is because of the human factor (error) during sharpening. there just is not enough material removal during skating to significantly affect the profile. most of those nicks are just displaced metal - it is still there. there are not small chucks of metal constantly being lost from the skate. if a sharpener tells you it is your skating that is changing the profile, then it is just a case of the sharpener not wanting to admit that he isn't perfect.

[jimmy 194]

if a profile is changing over time, it is because of the human factor (error) during sharpening. there just is not enough material removal during skating to significantly affect the profile. most of those nicks are just displaced metal - it is still there. there are not small chucks of metal constantly being lost from the skate. if a sharpener tells you it is your skating that is changing the profile, then it is just a case of the sharpener not wanting to admit that he isn't perfect.

It is not always human 'error' that changes the profile, the simple sharpening of the skate does this a little bit each time they are sharpened. Not a big deal for one sharpening but after 8-10 sharpenings, the profile can be changed significantly from when first put on. If the sharpener is good, the change each sharpening is minimal, if he/she is bad, then it is significant. One simple pause during the stroke can F up a profile big time. No sharpener can maintain the exact same profile every sharpening. What if there is a area that has a destroyed edge? This will take a lot of passes to fix. Guess what, when you are grinding down that area, you are changing the radius. This is exactly why profile or radius need to be refreshed frequently. I chuckle (to myself)when some one tell me they had a radius put on 10 years ago, and they think that radius is still on the skates. Long gone.

[feriplankton 0]

Do you have any experience with machine sharpening? Our local store uses ProSharpener and claims that this machine doesn't change the profile. Should I give my skates to the guy I know he's been sharpening for professionals with machine-like precision or trust the machine?

[Chadd 916]

machines can be good for profiling, not so much for sharpening in my experience

[pcoughfee 0]

guessing prosharp machine is good for profile because it sharpens flat

cuts out human "banana motion" sharpening

[Lester8 11]

There's pretty much nothing you can say to get the sharpener to maintain your profile. If they don't already know how, asking isn't going to make it click. Watch for slow passes that are quiet with consistent spark length and brightness. If they aren't doing that, see another sharpener. You can't squeeze blood from a stone.

If you've never handed your skates to a particular sharpener, it's a good litmus test to ask for (but not demand) one certain detail (stay off the ends / sharpen end to end / keep my nine foot / take out this nick / etc), because his/her reaction will be telling. If they are agreeable, share your concern and take the time to assert their high standard, they're probably going to accommodate you and do good work. If they brush it off, look indifferent/annoyed or downplay the importance of your request, then they probably can't and won't give you what you want.

And if you must ask for excellent work, show you're not a jerk and that you actually care about the sharpening. Take two seconds to look at the finished product and say thanks without clanging your blades together as you walk away.

[DigDug 5]

If you've never handed your skates to a particular sharpener, it's a good litmus test to ask for (but not demand) one certain detail (stay off the ends / sharpen end to end / keep my nine foot / take out this nick / etc), because his/her reaction will be telling. If they are agreeable, share your concern and take the time to assert their high standard, they're probably going to accommodate you and do good work. If they brush it off, look indifferent/annoyed or downplay the importance of your request, then they probably can't and won't give you what you want.

I've used this in many areas of life - a very useful way of determining the quality of customer service.

[DarkStar50 680]

and if you think they may have met the standard of service you're looking for, drop them a small tip. It will go a long way to them remembering you.

[DigDug 5]

Duly noted. ;)

and if you think they may have met the standard of service you're looking for, drop them a small tip. It will go a long way to them remembering you.

[wetwilly17 6]

It is not always human 'error' that changes the profile, the simple sharpening of the skate does this a little bit each time they are sharpened. Not a big deal for one sharpening but after 8-10 sharpenings, the profile can be changed significantly from when first put on. If the sharpener is good, the change each sharpening is minimal, if he/she is bad, then it is significant. One simple pause during the stroke can F up a profile big time. No sharpener can maintain the exact same profile every sharpening. What if there is a area that has a destroyed edge? This will take a lot of passes to fix. Guess what, when you are grinding down that area, you are changing the radius. This is exactly why profile or radius need to be refreshed frequently. I chuckle (to myself)when some one tell me they had a radius put on 10 years ago, and they think that radius is still on the skates. Long gone.

Jimmy, i may be wrong but this is how i see it: if the sharpener is perfect, then the change in radius during sharpening is equal to the amount of material removed, correct? how much material is removed after 10 typical sharpenings....maybe 0.1" as long as there isn't any major edge damage. so with a perfect sharpener, the change in profile will not be significant (going from a 10 foot radius to a 9.992' foot radius (10' - 0.1" = 9.992') will not be noticed by anyone save maybe pros that, given all of their training, are playing at their absolute peak performance. we average joes won't know the difference. however we average joes will be able to tell a difference after awhile when a bad sharpener does not remove equal material over the length of the blade.

with that said, i understand no sharpener is perfect. and because of that, i agree with you that profiles should be refreshened every now and then. my original post was just clarify that the changes in profile are from the sharpening process and not skating as someone else mentioned.

[jimmy 194]

wetwilly,

What I was mainly refering to is that when bad edges and nicks are removed, a lot more passes are required. Could be much more on the left skate than the right if the left skate condition is worse. Even if technique is good, it's going to alter the profile a bit. Using your example perhaps 9.992' after one sharpening, then 9.889 after the secong, then 9.777 after the third, etc. Over time the left skate could be way out of wack from the right. All of us have a dominant foot, perhaps we push off with that leg first, or only make left turns, or dig for the puck with our left skate against opposing players, or jump over the boards and always land on that skate first. What then happens is that when we go to the sharpener, the dominant skate will need more work to sharpen than the other. This not only effects profile but height and balance as well. That's why refreshing a radius is a good idea.