Interesting comment by Chara on industry's constant change

[Lee-Bro 1]

The market wanting to do that isn't as big as you think.

The same answer that people in here gave Chara/Green/Shanahan applies for retail: you like it? Pony up the cash and horde it before it goes away.

You just bring back the design or fit 15 years later...that way nobody notices. Trust me, it's done.

Yup, that's done in the drum (musical variety) industry too. What's old is new again.

[dsjunior1388 81]

I'm actually surprised that some of the companies haven't started offering retro product's. If there is such a huge market out there for certain discontinued items one could assume that a Company like Easton could offer the public a limited run of Synergy's or Bauer the one95 at a nice profit. If a market for them truely exists.

I'd say 9 out of every 10 hockey players is completely convinced that every single line of new gear is a vast improvement on the old product. I had an ACHA level hockey player who LOVED one95s come into my shop to get a new one95 cut down for his game. He had gotten VERY lucky and found one being sold at wholesale. He told me he wanted to break it on purpose to warranty it for a TotalOne. After using 7 One95s, and finding an 8th, he was ready to "upgrade" to a TotalOne, a stick he never used before, because Bauer convinced him they improved the stick.

[steelnation248 101]

I'm actually surprised that some of the companies haven't started offering retro product's. If there is such a huge market out there for certain discontinued items one could assume that a Company like Easton could offer the public a limited run of Synergy's or Bauer the one95 at a nice profit. If a market for them truely exists.

It's kind of like Jofa products. There is a ton of love for them on sites like this and other hockey forums (I've personally never tried them), but they weren't very successful in the retail market.

[Chappie 0]

It's kind of like Jofa products. There is a ton of love for them on sites like this and other hockey forums (I've personally never tried them), but they weren't very successful in the retail market.

That has as much to do with marketing as it does anything else. Had jofa been managed differently from a business perspective, maybe it would've went better for them. They also never developed a true line of skates or sticks, which is where the profit truly exists.

[JR Boucicaut 3768]

That has as much to do with marketing as it does anything else. Had jofa been managed differently from a business perspective, maybe it would've went better for them. They also never developed a true line of skates or sticks, which is where the profit truly exists.

Jofa's marketing was that they "protected the pros." The problem is that they had to run ads (as well as paid to have the NHL shield on their equipment) because you couldn't see it as it's covered up by jerseys and socks. I remember an ad about 9 years ago that had 6 NHLer names on it. And underneath it it said "These players don't wear a single piece of Jofa protective," which means that the 600 other NHLers did.

Jofa's demise had everything to do with the fact that it was too much pad for a lot of people, they cost more in stores, and little things like not having straps on their shinpads steered people in other directions.

Skates and sticks have the lowest profit margin in the hockey industry, especially at the high end. Sorry, but you're just misinformed there.

[AIREAYE 248]

JR, do you mean the lowest profits for the manufacturers or the retailers that sell them? Just curious.

[JR Boucicaut 3768]

Both.

[Chappie 0]

JR, that's what I meant. Sorry, was posting from work on the phone and didn't really explain myself, but as you said, Jofa had to outwardly market themselves since their gear couldn't for them (save for the helmet line). You're right, their differences from other gear when it came to straps, and cost definitely did hurt them (I had friends who wouldn't buy their shins for just because of straps... ), but the whole idea of only ad-based marketing really did them in imo. There were no Federov's wearing their radically designed, different color Nike skates, or Paul Coffey's Sherwood stick, or Lindros wearing a wardrobe of Bauer. Sure, they may have been wearing them under their jersey - almost every player did at one time or another - but who was to know (outside of those already somewhat informed)? Most kids or people just getting into hockey always look at skates, gloves, sticks and helmets, I'd say right around that order too, or at least that's how I did when I was a kid. If you didn't know anything better about the game, or have an inside track on equipment, you'd never know Jofa really existed, or at least how much they were really loved, besides guys like Gretzky, Jags, Selanne, etc. wearing their helmets, and they didn't all wear the Jofa sticker forever either. I think Gretzky got rid of it once he got to LA.

[zachary 2]

I'd say 9 out of every 10 hockey players is completely convinced that every single line of new gear is a vast improvement on the old product. I had an ACHA level hockey player who LOVED one95s come into my shop to get a new one95 cut down for his game. He had gotten VERY lucky and found one being sold at wholesale. He told me he wanted to break it on purpose to warranty it for a TotalOne. After using 7 One95s, and finding an 8th, he was ready to "upgrade" to a TotalOne, a stick he never used before, because Bauer convinced him they improved the stick.

I wouldn't base anything off what that kid says because at my school which has 4 mens and 1 Women's ACHA team that there are a lot (almost 85%) who know nothing about actually specs and such. I might be being generous on that percent too...

[dsjunior1388 81]

I wouldn't base anything off what that kid says because at my school which has 4 mens and 1 Women's ACHA team that there are a lot (almost 85%) who know nothing about actually specs and such. I might be being generous on that percent too...

Its far from an isolate incident, just the most recent I've come across. Happens all the time.

[Vet88 673]

Wouldn't an exception to this be the SE16? A rep I know in North America told me that 30% of all sticks Easton hand out to pros, sponsored teams, etc are SE16's in repaint colours such as EQ50's, ST's, RS's etc. His comment was that with such a big base of players still wanting to use that particular stick, they dare not stop making them. I got a stack load of EQ50's last month that are all SE16 repaints and they were from a batch of sticks released to a team this year.

[DarkStar50 679]

Easton should re-release the SE16. My favorite OPS of all time. On the underside of the shaft, Easton dates manufacture of their sticks in Mexico. My SE16 is from October 2009. I'm going to be pissed when that stick breaks.

[Slapsht25 0]

I really miss my original stealth synergy, I loved that stick. When it broke, all they had was the cnt and it wasn't even close for me

[Chadd 916]

Easton should re-release the SE16. My favorite OPS of all time. On the underside of the shaft, Easton dates manufacture of their sticks in Mexico. My SE16 is from October 2009. I'm going to be pissed when that stick breaks.

While I didn't use the SE16, it seems like the Mako is closer to the SL/SE than the EQ series of sticks. What are your thoughts about the Mako?

[DarkStar50 679]

I have not used a Mako yet. Have to wait and see. The EQ50 did not really do it for me.

[Sputnik20 46]

To kind of mirror Chara's complaint, but in a more business related content. Lets say there are 1,000,000 players (all ages) playing ice hockey in the USA. How many sticks are produced by company B, C, E, R, S, W each, every year? How many stores are there to supply those sticks to the skating public? I'm not sure, but lets say Bauer alone manufactures 10,000,000 sticks per year. Add the all companies together, you have 60,000,000 sticks made a year. Who do they expect to buy them all?

Same thing for goalies. If there are 1,000,000 players in the USA of which lets say 10% are goalies, how many pairs of pads do we need? Ebay alone must have enough pads on there for half the Chinese population.

Too much product out there, with too quick a turn, too many new options, too many price points. And all with quality issues.

[interpathway 9]

I just can't imagine any one company producing 10,000,000 units (top of the line through entry) in one year's cycle.

[hockeymass 11]

To kind of mirror Chara's complaint, but in a more business related content. Lets say there are 1,000,000 players (all ages) playing ice hockey in the USA. How many sticks are produced by company B, C, E, R, S, W each, every year? How many stores are there to supply those sticks to the skating public? I'm not sure, but lets say Bauer alone manufactures 10,000,000 sticks per year. Add the all companies together, you have 60,000,000 sticks made a year. Who do they expect to buy them all?

Same thing for goalies. If there are 1,000,000 players in the USA of which lets say 10% are goalies, how many pairs of pads do we need? Ebay alone must have enough pads on there for half the Chinese population.

Too much product out there, with too quick a turn, too many new options, too many price points. And all with quality issues.

I seriously doubt 60 million sticks are produced every year.

[Stryker 37]

Its just a an example guys...

[DarkStar50 679]

Numbers are a dangerous thing if you don't apply them correctly. Numbers are one of the primary reasons businesses fail and close. Needless to say but I must, the vendors keep sales history of product. Not every vendor will sell enough OPS to warrant making 10mil for inventory. So, there would not be 60mil sticks produced as in your example. Also, OPS are produced based on booking numbers by the dealers. The vendors will produce the quantity booked plus some percentage for fill-in orders.

[ddibrano77 0]

good for Chara and I agree with his view on the ever changing world of hockey equipment innovations. I would love to use all of my old gear from back in the day (original black and white skates by douest, techniflex gloves and pants, klima jofa garbage can helmet, cooper ultra small shoulders).

It's all a marketing ploy to get you to keep buying...worked in the golf industry so I know for a fact they do the same or are even worse. The prices are ridiculous and good luck with getting custom clubs at a demo event, dropping anywhere from 1k-5k. Its too bad hockey has turned into more of a "SHOW AND TELL" than a sport of performance with good products in talented hands. The pros in both industries use custom everything and isnt even fair to compare what you by at the LHS. Most pro golfers now a days still use old designed clubs from 10yrs ago (titleist 900 series driver...number one driver on tour and most winning driver on tour).

[walkerdb7 18]

But the product in each cycle doesn't change for two years...that was my point.

This was in today's Boston Globe, while discussing his slapshot during the All Star festivities:

Meanwhile, Big Z, who rarely grows animated during his discussions with the media, was clearly frustrated with how equipment manufacturers are so quick to change stick specifications. Based on what he said, every time he gets comfortable with a stick, it seems the manufacturer changes the design - literally taking the tool out of his hands.

“The pressure on the company making the sticks is unbelievable,’’ he said. “You have a stick, you like it, and you tell them, ‘That’s what I want.’ And then it changes.

“So then you ask, ‘Why’d you stop making that?’ And then they say, ‘Well, we have to!’

“It just doesn’t make sense. They’re doing it because of some new graphic, or design, or blade . . . it’s crazy.’’

From my time with Salming, I'd agree with him that it is almost as though the hockey industry has gotten itself into a trap where companies have to make changes annually or be perceived as falling behind. In comparison, in the car industry, where there are hundreds of parts as well as scores of designers, they will generally make minor tweaks annually and major redesigns every five years, but it's a lot easier for them to tweak a cup holder than it is for a hockey company to totally redesign a stick.

If we really think about it, arn't the product life cycles longer and don't companies sort of follow the auto philosophy?

Look at skates, if you really liked the one90, can't you buy a One8 now? When my One95s got stolen, I picked up one100s. The skates are very similiar to the One95s, but with a couple tweaks.

Hasn't Easton sort of done the same thing? When the tapered Synergy came out, they made the ST line for people who like the feel of the original Synergy. That design has been tweaked over years, but the ST has similar roots to the original synergy.

As for other products, how long did CCM make the HT2? How long has the Cooper HH3000 basic design been around? It is now the Bauer HH4500, again a tweaked version...

Like the auto industry, the hockey manufactures do just tweak designs. Often times you can still get something extremely similar to what you got 4-5 years ago... The top end may change, but your favorite product is often still in the product line under a different name, maybe will some slightly enhanced features, and a at lower price point.

[shotty 7]

from a manufacturing perspective, you need to maintain commitment from your retailers in order to sustain financing. the only way to show guaranteed business is by producing booking dollars: orders given to the manufacturer ahead of production. its what the manufacturers use to forecast how much of a certain product they are going to create, and most importantly it shows the finance department/bank/creditor how much revenue is on the table for the manufacturer and thus the health of their business. the one95 might have been the best stick bauer ever made, but they cant sustain their business on hoping that retailers keep repeating on stock, nor would they be able to forecast future sales if they kept it in the line, it could die at any moment and they'd be stuck with thousands of units. it's a gamble in every sense of the word. booking orders keep manufacturers in business and the only way to get booking orders is to show new product every season.