Helmets- why isn't football tech brought into hockey

[xzzy 0]

It's my understanding that motorcycle helmets are designed to absorb only one impact, destroying themselves in the process. Hockey and football helmets use foams that are designed to absorb more than one impact, returning to their original shape after impact. I believe that this results in less impact absorption for the materials used in hockey and football helmets.

I think that's what the M11 helmets were meant to help with.. get some of the benefits of a destructible helmet, but in a reusable form. The re-akt helmet claims to offer some of that, too.

Unfortunately hockey players being hockey players, they all think the helmet looks stupid and refuse to wear it.

So people are definitely interested in making hockey helmets better, but it takes a long time to get the culture to catch up.

[chippa13 1844]

Motorcycle helmets are usually dealing with a bit more force than a hockey or football collision.

[Chadd 916]

I think that's what the M11 helmets were meant to help with.. get some of the benefits of a destructible helmet, but in a reusable form. The re-akt helmet claims to offer some of that, too.

Unfortunately hockey players being hockey players, they all think the helmet looks stupid and refuse to wear it.

So people are definitely interested in making hockey helmets better, but it takes a long time to get the culture to catch up.

The M11 has a number of issues that have contributed to its lack of acceptance on a larger scale.

[innotastic 12]

First I think its important to recognize that concussions are still an issue in professional football, and many of the advances to reduce concussion have more to do with (in my opinion) fundamental rule changes than technology. Just think back a couple of years before all the rule changes concerning hitting with and to the head.

Second, let us consider that concussions are caused (in simple, general terms), the brain bouncing off the skull walls. hockey helmets have been making great advances in this area (reducing sequential impacts, reducing rotational forces), but we are still far from preventing concussions entirely. that is because so long as our brain is suspended freely within the skull, there will always be a minimum risk of concussion. Try shaking your head side to side really quickly - it hurts a bit, you get a bit of a headache. falling into a giant inflatable crash mat the wrong way with enough speed still hurts like a bitch and you'll probably still get a concussion. If we really wanted to make significant, immediate reductions in concussions, you have to change the way the game is played.

Lastly, introducing football styled helmets to hockey isn't practical for all the reasons already mentioned. I'll add that carrying a helmet so much larger and heavier will contribute to a number of soft tissue injuries that isn't as much a concern in football. linesmen can have padding behind their necks to help keep it from whipping back as far. And likely it won't reduce concussions much either.

I think hockey helmet tech is in the right direction. Hopefully companies will collaborate soon and not patent-sue each other to the ground and we might have a truly protective helmet. At the same time, I think we might have to concede that there is only so much we can do before we have to change the way the game is played.

[Chadd 916]

At the same time, I think we might have to concede that there is only so much we can do before we have to change the way the game is played.

I think we first need to accept that we have changed the way the game is taught, coached and played, the game is more aggressive at the youth levels than at any point in my life. Every hit is about doing as much damage as possible and "making the other team pay a price". If coaches put that much emphasis on skill development and scoring, the game would be so much better off than it is now.

[goaliemanshark 6]

Just to add something,

Easton designs their helmets at the same place Riddell makes their football helmets. I'm sure they share tech with each other, or at least discuss why they shouldn't be sharing tech. They call the center "the dome"

[danno25nh 3]

This has been an interesting topic with some conclusions drawn from misunderstandings of biomechanics and physics.

Head impacts in football are far different than those in hockey. In football impacts are often from leading with the head. At the same time the body is propelled toward another player the shoulders are drawn upward providing a platform against which the helmet rests. The impact is spread across the shoulder pad or a supplemental pad.

The players are most often aligned in such a manner as to properly brace so as to minimize damage to their head. Yes open field tackles occur but these are less common. Football head injuries as a whole tend to be repeated less violent trauma which over time causes lasting damage.

Hockey injuries to the head are often of very high force when a player is in a position in which he cannot protect himself. Hits from behind into the boards, mid-ice collisions in which one player has his head down looking for the puck, or bouncing off the ice/boards from a hit.

A hockey helmet must be of different design than other helmets. Imagine wearing a 3 lb hockey helmet and taking a hard mid-ice hit. The inertial forces created could cause severe neck injury. Additionally think about how different helmets act when striking a hard surface like the ice.

If we were to drop a motorcycle helmet on the ice from 6 feet it would bounce several feet in the air. Now imagine your head in that helmet. Not a good result. Football helmets react very similarly. Again not a good thing. If we drop a hockey helmet into the ice the force is spread out and it does not bounce back into our hands. This means we didn't break our neck.

Hockey players travel at much greater speed than football players, the helmet must be lighter to prevent neck/spine damage. It must not bounce. It must also protect from high speed small point of impact blows such as flying pucks and slashing sticks.

[notquitedeadyet 13]

It's not force that is the problem it's inertia. No matter how much padding you add the fact that the brain is "floating" in CSF inside the skull. You cannot stop it from slamming into the skull wall when coming to a sudden stop from high speed. That is irregardless of if it is an elbow or the ice.

IMO the softer the padding the better (to an extent). not a fan of EPP helmets for me or my son.

I totally agree with this.

Is hard to imagine EPP compressing at all given the amount of contact area with the skull. Seems way too hard.

Cost is not an issue when it comes to protecting my sons brain, but I sometimes feel like a cheapskate when I feel I have to eliminate the high end helmets from his list of choices. Gotta do what you think is best.

[SirJW 207]

It's my understanding that motorcycle helmets are designed to absorb only one impact, destroying themselves in the process. Hockey and football helmets use foams that are designed to absorb more than one impact, returning to their original shape after impact. I believe that this results in less impact absorption for the materials used in hockey and football helmets.

Thus the problem for impact sports. How to design a helmet that can sustain multiple collisions with out having to be replaced every time there is a serious impact.

[TeamHonda401 54]

Thus the problem for impact sports. How to design a helmet that can sustain multiple collisions with out having to be replaced every time there is a serious impact.

On top of that it still has to be comfortable and light. Quite the quandary.

[shooter27 116]

I totally agree with this.

Is hard to imagine EPP compressing at all given the amount of contact area with the skull. Seems way too hard.

Cost is not an issue when it comes to protecting my sons brain, but I sometimes feel like a cheapskate when I feel I have to eliminate the high end helmets from his list of choices. Gotta do what you think is best.

I've always agreed with the concept that the soft vn foam is better than epp because it seemed to be better able to absorb and slow force. I recently was shopping for new helmets and I ended up with the re-akt because it was the first epp based helmet I ever tried on where I felt like it had the same force absorption qualities as a vn helmet with the added benefits of epp. That complete opinion on my part, but I backed it up with my wallet.

[raganblink 82]

Interesting test Bauer showed us one day...

Dropped a ball bearing on 3 pieces of material.

VN, EPP & PORON.

The VN bounced almost as high as he dropped it. The EPP bounced up maybe 1/4th in height from when it was dropped. The PORON virtually absorbed the entire force.

If I had a child playing hockey, they would be in the best fitting helmet, regardless of the material of helmet - but if it was between, lets say, the 9900 VS the 4500, I sure as hell would put him in the 9900.

The issue I see when I sell helmets or hear about kids getting concussed, is this:

Parents want a helmet that is too big, so they "Can grow into it" - this is the stupidest thing you can do.

Parents let their children chew on their mouthguards.

Parents allow their HS aged kids to "Look cool" over be protected. I've seen so many kids with ridiculous cage hang who don't use the mouth guard who are on multiple concussions... genius.

[tro 4]

Read an article about James "Dirty Hit" Harrison claiming these military grade pads in his helmet have worked for his head, now he is free to go head 1st into tackles.

http://www.unequal.com/crt

they say a number of NFL players (mostly Steelers) and NHL teams are using the product, independent study does show a reduction in the severity index and a couple neurologist have recommended them. I know a number of QBs are wearing their body armour.

I'm not sure I see enough evidence yet, but I may give it a try.(yes, once again, I know that nothing can stop the brain from crashing inside the skull, just looking at every option to help reduce it)

[AIREAYE 248]

Read an article about James "Dirty Hit" Harrison claiming these military grade pads in his helmet have worked for his head, now he is free to go head 1st into tackles.

http://www.unequal.com/crt

they say a number of NFL players (mostly Steelers) and NHL teams are using the product, independent study does show a reduction in the severity index and a couple neurologist have recommended them. I know a number of QBs are wearing their body armour.

I'm not sure I see enough evidence yet, but I may give it a try.(yes, once again, I know that nothing can stop the brain from crashing inside the skull, just looking at every option to help reduce it)

Thanks for the link! My dentist on TV recommended Sensodyne for sensitive teeth, but I still can't eat ice cream without pain.

Kidding aside, judging from the videos, they use a lot of buzz words. I don't see how their material differs from any other high-impact resistant material out there (ie. Poron, d3o) Any one of these material companies can put out an exact same video showing the same things (which they do).

[Hooah4 12]

Interesting that the site uses Harrison's quotes. Is he a paid endorser? Is the team paid for its use?

First article linked vis USA today "Pennsylvania firm says it has developed a helmet liner that reduces the energy of blows to the head. Linebacker James Harrison of the Pittsburgh Steelers, a target of NFL discipline for helmet-to-helmet hits that have caused concussions, is a convert who says the thin insert has helped him avoid "concussion-like symptoms" of his own.

Doctors are more cautious. They say test data is encouraging but on-the-field studies are needed. The NFL says it is monitoring the device.

Then: "Anybody who tells you they can prevent or stop concussions, you should walk away. No such product exists,'' Vito said at a Tuesday news conference touting the liner.

Makes me a bit skeptical.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Just to add something,

Easton designs their helmets at the same place Riddell makes their football helmets. I'm sure they share tech with each other, or at least discuss why they shouldn't be sharing tech. They call the center "the dome"

We will revisit this in the very near future. Until then, for those who know, we ask to please refrain from commenting on this.

[hornethockey21 3]

We will revisit this in the very near future. Until then, for those who know, we ask to please refrain from commenting on this.

If that was directed towards me as well I apologize. Didn't know about that rule.

[Gummer12 134]

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61502-2012-2013-gear-sightings/page__st__400#entry942069

[mikey1967 0]

This has been an interesting topic with some conclusions drawn from misunderstandings of biomechanics and physics.

Head impacts in football are far different than those in hockey. In football impacts are often from leading with the head. At the same time the body is propelled toward another player the shoulders are drawn upward providing a platform against which the helmet rests. The impact is spread across the shoulder pad or a supplemental pad.

The players are most often aligned in such a manner as to properly brace so as to minimize damage to their head. Yes open field tackles occur but these are less common. Football head injuries as a whole tend to be repeated less violent trauma which over time causes lasting damage.

Hockey injuries to the head are often of very high force when a player is in a position in which he cannot protect himself. Hits from behind into the boards, mid-ice collisions in which one player has his head down looking for the puck, or bouncing off the ice/boards from a hit.

A hockey helmet must be of different design than other helmets. Imagine wearing a 3 lb hockey helmet and taking a hard mid-ice hit. The inertial forces created could cause severe neck injury. Additionally think about how different helmets act when striking a hard surface like the ice.

If we were to drop a motorcycle helmet on the ice from 6 feet it would bounce several feet in the air. Now imagine your head in that helmet. Not a good result. Football helmets react very similarly. Again not a good thing. If we drop a hockey helmet into the ice the force is spread out and it does not bounce back into our hands. This means we didn't break our neck.

Hockey players travel at much greater speed than football players, the helmet must be lighter to prevent neck/spine damage. It must not bounce. It must also protect from high speed small point of impact blows such as flying pucks and slashing sticks.

I'm no expert on hockey helmets and no nothing about football helmets but motorcycle helmets do not bounce...,.very interesting topic though

[danno25nh 3]

I'm no expert on hockey helmets and no nothing about football helmets but motorcycle helmets do not bounce...,.very interesting topic though

My wife knocked mine into the driveway. It bounced pretty high. Bought a nice Shoei to replace it.

[doodman 0]

I teach H.S. and I picked up a kid's football helmet today...thing weighed a ton. Could never imagine wearing anything that heavy playing hockey, Weight has got to be a major factor when trying to combine technologies.

[Hooah4 12]

Interesting article that seems very pertinent to this topic:

http://deadspin.com/...roundtable-2012

and further:

http://theconcussionblog.com/2012/10/17/james-harrison-a-head-trauma-spokesperson/

[shafted 6]

is there any comparison that shows which helmet is more protective than others based on the testing that they need in order to pass the CSA and HECC standards?