Virginia Tech STAR rating system being developed for hockey helmets

[SlaterC42 51]

I'm probably going to suggest a simple million dollar idea here that actually might be very simple to implement: you know how travel teams have shells for the hockey pants? You know, a second pair of thin pants made out of the same material as warm ups without the lining to be worn over the regular hockey pants, so the team is uniform without having everyone buying new pants? How about shells made out of something like Lycra to fit over the helmet? Could be personalized for the teams, inexpensive to produce, but more importantly....provides that slippery surface to the helmet that I was previously talking about to ANY helmet! It would lessen the rotational contribution to the concussion potential. Kinda like applying a layer of grease to the helmet! If one of you takes this idea to fruition, I would appreciate a mention!.....and maybe 25% !!!

Something like this??

http://www.hockeymonkey.com/ar-helmet-pinney.html

[Medichef 7]

Like that only with complete coverage of the helmet like military helmet covers. And a strapping system to maybe the ear loops, so that they wouldn't constantly need replacement or readjustment.

[Ps12 11]

I checked the site out of curiosity to check if they added anything. Hoping to see if they had ratings for Warrior krown px3.

They do...

It's even worse than the lte.

Not sure I understand how warrior could slip so much. Isn't it pretty much the same as the 360 except for the lining?

[TitanG 5]

Yeah... Somehow the CCM Fitlite is ranked much lower than the Reebok 11k even thought they're almost exactly the same helmet.

Just goes to show that dealing with helmet protectiveness is no perfect science.

Also, the CCM FL80 and Reebok 7k (not to mention the disparity between the 7k and 8k) show a similar difference, even though they are almost identical, down to the gel pads being the only difference.

Edited October 8, 2015 by TitanG

[flip12 717]

Just goes to show that dealing with helmet protectiveness is no perfect science.

What do you mean?

[TitanG 5]

What do you mean?

I mean that either the testing by Virginia Tech is not very precise or that changing one small part of a helmet can have a large effect on how it performs during the test.

In a nutshell, either it's imperfect testing, development, or a combination of factors.

What do you mean?

I mean that either the testing by Virginia Tech is not very precise or that changing one small part of a helmet can have a large effect on how it performs during the test.

In a nutshell, either it's imperfect testing, development, or a combination of factors.

[flip12 717]

I mean that either the testing by Virginia Tech is not very precise or that changing one small part of a helmet can have a large effect on how it performs during the test.

In a nutshell, either it's imperfect testing, development, or a combination of factors.

Ok, that makes more sense. There were a couple of other interpretations I could imagine as well.

Have you read their original paper? Repetition and precision are the bread and butter of the experimental design and the foundation of their (but also any) research in general. If their results can't be verified and replicated, they're worthless. In their paper they go to great lengths to explain how they do their testing and how detailed that is should quash any suspicions that a surprising result that they get is due to wishy washy execution. Otherwise, that fact will soon be found out, they'll lose credibility and their careers will just as soon be over. I'm not saying that exactly that kind of discovery doesn't happen regarding faulty research, just that it seems at least unlikely in this case since this group has plenty of enemies who would love to find the research was sloppy, and begin to rip the group to shreds.

How different are the Warrior helmets? It is surprising to see them go from 3-stars and 2-stars to NR from their old to their new helmets.

[TitanG 5]

From what I've seen, there are obvious differences in the technology of the Warrior helmets. That was my point in mentioning the Reebok/CCM helmets that are nearly identical getting such differing scores, being that even a small change in design can have a large impact on results.

[flip12 717]

There can be such pleasant surprises: little difference that seem to have outsize effects. That could potentially lead to better designs on average.

[Ps12 11]

Hey Guys -

Here is a quick run through of some features of the LTE that differ from the 360.

Price point LTE is less than the 360 was at launch

Liner is composed of EPP and comfort foam. These are tried and true liner materials that are proven in hockey helmet mfg. They have great characteristics focused on protection, durability, weight and fit. LTE does not use Impax Foam

Cosmetic the LTE has a simple clean branding application using pad printing rather than jewels 3-D logos

Shell the 4-play shell and adjustment system has been refined and improved. We made the mechanism and entire helmet more robust and responsive to finer adjustments.

Fit the LTE helmet fits with a lower profile overall

[CB1 8]

Wow, the Krown PX3 went all the way down to "Not Recommended"! That is a drop!

Edited October 9, 2015 by CB1

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

So turns out the head forms used are nothing like what the helmet manufactures use in hockey.

Also the connection point for the load of the rotational impact of the neck piece was altered to make it suit the study the head form bieng used so they could complete the study.

I think with that being said there is no way the study can be replicated with the head forms used by the hockey industry. Therefor there is no way they can make a safe helmet according to VT.

Now if VT was to use an approved hockey head form that was modified in a way that would not alter fit and did the study over again I think the results maybe a light bit different?

They basically used the football helmet head form with a neck piece that was for car crash head forms to test for rotational impact.

Would have not made more sense to use a hockey helmet head form and have that modified?

[flip12 717]

It's interesting that there's a difference. Do you have any pictures of what they were using compared to the hockey head forms? I also wonder what effect it would have on their results.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

No pictures were released. Just the information VT gave to CSA and HECC. they used a NOCSE Football head form and a car crash dummy bendable neck.

[DarkStar50 679]

While I appreciate the effort, a study that was started in early 2014, with results made open to the public in Spring 2015, sending off a lot of uh-ohs among dealers, vendors, and parents, is now found to have used a different head form for their testing than the one used by the hockey industry, HECC, and CSA? Well, isn't that special?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

While I appreciate the effort, a study that was started in early 2014, with results made open to the public in Spring 2015, sending off a lot of uh-ohs among dealers, vendors, and parents, is now found to have used a different head form for their testing than the one used by the hockey industry, HECC, and CSA? Well, isn't that special?

Agree 100%. That is why I was so critical from the beginning. If you did the same test with the correct units and in unison with the manufacturers IMO I feel we could come up with a safer helmet that actually may help lesson the possible risk of concussion. along with a few other products soon to be available.

[cmflynn 16]

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between a hockey head form and a football one? I don't think hockey and football players have structurally different skulls, so as long as the study accounts for the fact that different helmets fit different shaped heads (which I assuming is also true of football helmets since I haven't worn one since getting a concussion was called getting your bell rung and you could go back into play as soon as you could see straight) and using head forms that match fit, what difference should it make if it's a "hockey" head form or a "football" one?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between a hockey head form and a football one? I don't think hockey and football players have structurally different skulls, so as long as the study accounts for the fact that different helmets fit different shaped heads (which I assuming is also true of football helmets since I haven't worn one since getting a concussion was called getting your bell rung and you could go back into play as soon as you could see straight) and using head forms that match fit, what difference should it make if it's a "hockey" head form or a "football" one?

Excellent question.

It has to do with the full face features on the helmet as it has to be able to be tested with a cage. That is my main understanding of the difference. Well that and the NOCSE one has some kind of fluid in it I believe for fractures? I tend to nod off a little when head form discussions start in the meetings. I am sure you might be able to google them? Also the other and probably more critical part was the neck piece used and were it was placed and the type it is.

Here is the CSA one the "Facially Featured Head Form" Page 12. http://www.cadexinc.com/Catalogue%20headforms.pdf

and the NOCSE test http://nocsae.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ND001-11m12-Drop-Impact-Test-Method.pdfsimilar but missing the right ear.

[JGraz15 53]

Update on Reebok CCM helmets:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/hockey-helmet-concussions-1.3375030

And a real kick in the pants:

"Reebok-CCM must pay $30,000 to cover the cost of the bureau's investigation and donate $475,000 in equipment to a Canadian charity that allows underprivileged children or youth to play sports."

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Update on Reebok CCM helmets:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/hockey-helmet-concussions-1.3375030

And a real kick in the pants:

"Reebok-CCM must pay $30,000 to cover the cost of the bureau's investigation and donate $475,000 in equipment to a Canadian charity that allows underprivileged children or youth to play sports."

Kinda surprised our government had to do 2 freaking studies and waist more money when its the same as the Bauer deal. CSA and HECC have said for years the same finding.... Protects for majors but does not due a thing for concussions. Face Palm.

[Stryker 37]

Kinda surprised our government had to do 2 freaking studies and waist more money when its the same as the Bauer deal. CSA and HECC have said for years the same finding.... Protects for majors but does not due a thing for concussions. Face Palm.

Except Reebok-CCM has to pay for the cost of the investigation...

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Except Reebok-CCM has to pay for the cost of the investigation...

So did Bauer in fact they had to pay even more!

Bauer Hockey Corp. has agreed to stop claiming that one of its hockey helmets protects players from certain kinds of concussions, after an investigation by the Competition Bureau.

The watchdog announced Thursday that it had reached a settlement with Exeter, N.H.-based Bauer that will see the company eliminate certain claims in its advertising and product packaging, donate $500,000 to an unnamed youth sports charity, and pay $40,000 for the cost of the investigation

[Zac911 317]

So did Bauer in fact they had to pay even more!

Bauer Hockey Corp. has agreed to stop claiming that one of its hockey helmets protects players from certain kinds of concussions, after an investigation by the Competition Bureau.

The watchdog announced Thursday that it had reached a settlement with Exeter, N.H.-based Bauer that will see the company eliminate certain claims in its advertising and product packaging, donate $500,000 to an unnamed youth sports charity, and pay $40,000 for the cost of the investigation

In these type of events the only winners are the lawyers.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

So true.... well and all the young people that got free gear....?

[Zac911 317]

So true.... well and all the young people that got free gear....?

No such thing as bad publicity. Take a negative and turn it into a positive. What I would call into question is how is the $ amount figured? Off of retail cost? If so it costs a fraction of that $475k to look like good guys. :)

In any case free product to get more kids playing hockey is good for hockey. Period.