Low vs. Mid Kick...Marketing BS?

[boo10 323]

I've been playing hockey for 40 years and used hundreds of sticks over that time. I notice no difference in the "speed of release" between mid and low kick sticks. Also, I've looked at photos of pros in the act of shooting and don't really see a difference in the flex profile of different sticks. I looked at Stamkos (mid) and Kessel (low).

So my question is, is there a meaningful difference between the two, or is it more marketing BS? Opinions?

[chippa13 1844]

If you're feeling no difference at all then the odds are pretty good that you are using sticks that are too stiff.

[Cavs019 710]

The difference is in how they feel in your hands which is more personal preference than anything else, but the idea of one releasing the puck quicker than the other has always been a load of BS to me.

[boo10 323]

If you're feeling no difference at all then the odds are pretty good that you are using sticks that are too stiff.

I appreciate your opinion, but I'm able to load the 87 flex sticks that I use. Next time I'm in PHL I'll grab a couple 77 flex and hit the shooting cage to see if my opinion changes.

[AIREAYE 248]

Absolutely not BS. Whether or not someone notices the difference depends on how tuned they are and the types of sticks they've tried. Doesn't matter if you've played 4 years or 40 years...

[Cavs019 710]

Absolutely not BS. Whether or not someone notices the difference depends on how tuned they are and the types of sticks they've tried. Doesn't matter if you've played 4 years or 40 years...

There is certainly a "difference" but again, its a feel difference and not a tangible performance difference. I liken it to the "power vs. agility" jargon that gets thrown around with the Vapor vs.Supreme skate comparisons.

[AIREAYE 248]

There is certainly a "difference" but again, its a feel difference and not a tangible performance difference. I liken it to the "power vs. agility" jargon that gets thrown around with the Vapor vs.Supreme skate comparisons.

I can't directly contradict you on this point because AFAIK, no one has done a controlled study on the performance difference on different types of shots and published the results. If you have evidence of this that supports your point, I'd be inclined to believe this, but if not, then it's simply your opinion, which is fine.

Hey Michael from Sherwood, have you guys done anything like this with your True Touch series and their 'LKP' counterparts? That's probably a close approximation. But then again, we would have too small a sample to generate any sort of overall conclusion.

[Cavs019 710]

It is my opinion and not fact by any means, but I digress...

I prefer the feeling of a stick that is soft between my hands as opposed to soft below my bottom hand when stickhandling/passing. I feel like my release is more dependent on my ability to get my hands through the puck quickly, generate force quickly (fast twitch muscle work, etc), and form/puck position on my blade as opposed to what I'm holding. While I've preferred mid-kick sticks, I've also used low-kick sticks and find the above factors, the quality of the shaft (weight, does it avoid twisting when I shoot, etc), and how "hot" the face of the blade is play more of a role in release time than the location of the kickpoint.

My examples below are representative of a small sample size and again, not scientific but....

Hull: Used a noodle flex standard shaft/blade most of his career, has arguably one of the best releases in history

Stamkos: Mid-kick Total One, one of the fastest releases in the game today.

Kessel: Has used low-kick eliptical Easton sticks for most of his career.

Bossy: Used a wood stick and probably got the puck off his blade quicker than most NHL players today.

Conclusion: Release quickness is dependent on the indian, not the arrow.

[kovalchuk71 212]

Not to Mention Hull preferred the kick of flipped OPSs, so for him, all of this "technology" is thrown out the window.....

[AIREAYE 248]

It is my opinion and not fact by any means, but I digress...

I prefer the feeling of a stick that is soft between my hands as opposed to soft below my bottom hand when stickhandling/passing. I feel like my release is more dependent on my ability to get my hands through the puck quickly, generate force quickly (fast twitch muscle work, etc), and form/puck position on my blade as opposed to what I'm holding. While I've preferred mid-kick sticks, I've also used low-kick sticks and find the above factors, the quality of the shaft (weight, does it avoid twisting when I shoot, etc), and how "hot" the face of the blade is play more of a role in release time than the location of the kickpoint.

My examples below are representative of a small sample size and again, not scientific but....

Hull: Used a noodle flex standard shaft/blade most of his career, has arguably one of the best releases in history

Stamkos: Mid-kick Total One, one of the fastest releases in the game today.

Kessel: Has used low-kick eliptical Easton sticks for most of his career.

Bossy: Used a wood stick and probably got the puck off his blade quicker than most NHL players today.

Conclusion: Release quickness is dependent on the indian, not the arrow.

Sure, each to his own, but using their personal preferences doesn't discount any theory that involves discussing whether or not low/mid kick sticks provide quicker puck acceleration or shot velocity.

[innotastic 12]

sure there's a difference. but first you're gonna have to define "speed of release" for us. are you referring to how quick the puck gets off the blade or the velocity of your shot? those are two very distinct concepts.

its the same idea as using a different curve, you're manipulating the physics of an implement to you're desired preferences, the sticks and materials are essentially the same.

a low kick stick should have a "quicker release", as the last flexion point is farther away. anyone familiar with the kinetic link principle in golf or in a pitcher's throw will understand this.

a mid kick stick should have a higher release velocity like any big lever should versus a smaller lever.

but these also boil down to your technique and preferences. i have a t100 mid kick and a t90 lkp same flex and curve, and it definitely feels different (barring the fact they are different models), whether or not one or the other has absolute differences is harder to say and is more in what you're looking for.

[Cavs019 710]

I understand the physics behind it...but is the difference discernible in the context of a hockey stick to the point where its materially advantageous to use a lower kick stick?

[jdksaves 56]

There has been studies done by multiple companies, but won't be published, because all the testing will have to have different perameters as to where hands are placed when shooting and stick handling to get optimal playability and feel and this is why they offer multiple flex profile options. It is not marketing BS, it is business, one stick will not work for every player some can get close, but every player is looking for different characteristics and some rank stick handling higher than shooting or may have something completely different as there main playing aspect, so this is why the differences are needed. Some may not feel a difference as they are not picky, but more than likely those people have stated at some point when getting a new stick with different playing characteristics that they needed to get used to that new stick and that is where they are noticing the differences, but not knowing it.

[Cosmic 178]

There are videos that show that sticks flex in different zones- this is just basic technology- low kick, high kick, or custom kick (like Superfast). Look at a tapered shaft, it gets smaller toward the bottom- this has to affect the release. Whether one is faster or slower depends on the technique of the user, I think it is just how your technique jives with the different flexes and flex points that can make a difference. So yea, to make a blanket statement that one is faster or slower may be marketing half-truth.

[AIREAYE 248]

sure there's a difference. but first you're gonna have to define "speed of release" for us. are you referring to how quick the puck gets off the blade or the velocity of your shot? those are two very distinct concepts.

I would think both are important and distinct variables and might be different with the different kick points.

I understand the physics behind it...but is the difference discernible in the context of a hockey stick to the point where its materially advantageous to use a lower kick stick?

Well, advantageous implies that a low kick stick would have greater puck acceleration and velocity (remember, 2 distinct variables/measurements of 'performance'). At this point, it might be common knowledge that a low kick could have better acceleration while a mid-kick cold have greater velocity. If this is indeed true, we're back to it all coming down to personal preference and shooting style like others have mentioned if we want to determine 'advantageous'.

There has been studys done by multiple companies, but won't be published, because all the testing will have to have different perameters as to where hands are placed when shooting and stick handling to get optimal playability and feel and this is why they offer multiple flex profile options. It is not marketing BS, it is business, one stick will not work for every player some can get close, but every player is looking for different characteristics and some rank stick handling higher than shooting or may have something completely different as there main playing aspect, so this is why the differences are needed. Some may not feel a difference as they are not picky, but more than likely those people have stated at some point when getting a new stick with different playing characteristics that they needed to get used to that new stick and that is where they are noticing the differences, but not knowing it.

That's what I thought, tying back to my previous point above.

[boo10 323]

All very interesting points and opinions, which is what I was hoping for. I understand the physics, but just wonder if the difference is really discernible? By speed of release, I'm referring to how much time it takes for the puck to leave the blade once I start the act of shooting. My estimation is a max difference in the thousandths of seconds, which even in a fast game like hockey is negligible. Love the debate and hearing the opinions of others.

[AIREAYE 248]

All very interesting points and opinions, which is what I was hoping for. I understand the physics, but just wonder if the difference is really discernible? By speed of release, I'm referring to how much time it takes for the puck to leave the blade once I start the act of shooting. My estimation is a max difference in the thousandths of seconds, which even in a fast game like hockey is negligible. Love the debate and hearing the opinions of others.

At this point, it seems that a set of conclusions could be drawn.

Unless we get some hard data, we're simply going off of a lot of evidence, which is fine.

If we're looking at this practically instead of technically, then it would depend on the player.

[Amiroo39 121]

There are videos that show that sticks flex in different zones- this is just basic technology- low kick, high kick, or custom kick (like Superfast). Look at a tapered shaft, it gets smaller toward the bottom- this has to affect the release. Whether one is faster or slower depends on the technique of the user, I think it is just how your technique jives with the different flexes and flex points that can make a difference. So yea, to make a blanket statement that one is faster or slower may be marketing half-truth.

Love the term "custom kickpoint". Now that's marketing.

[AIREAYE 248]

Huh, so that explains why the Mission M2 Hull shaft I have feels off...

[Chadd 916]

I think there is some marketing that has gotten out of hand, but the concepts are valid. There are differences between the flex profiles and how they kick. Your shooting mechanics should favor a particular flex profile and I would tend to agree that if all of them perform the same, there is an issue with your selection. That's assuming you are using the high end models, the differences are going to be less noticeable as you go down the lines.

[jsykes 35]

Also, I've looked at photos of pros in the act of shooting and don't really see a difference in the flex profile of different sticks. I looked at Stamkos (mid) and Kessel (low).

This isnt really a good way to judge things either as there is no guarantee that the flex profile of a pros stick is the same as the retail version of the one they're supposedly using. Many use custom flex patterns and just cause its painted like a model that is low kick, doesnt mean that what is under the paint is indeed low kick.

[jimmy 194]

All very interesting points and opinions, which is what I was hoping for. I understand the physics, but just wonder if the difference is really discernible? By speed of release, I'm referring to how much time it takes for the puck to leave the blade once I start the act of shooting. My estimation is a max difference in the thousandths of seconds, which even in a fast game like hockey is negligible. Love the debate and hearing the opinions of others.

I agree with you, we need hard data that shows under controlled tests with variables isolated, just exactly how much faster a puck is release of a low vs mid, and exactly how much more velocity a shot off a mid is vs a low. If it's 1/1000 of a second or .001 mph it's no big deal. If it's 1 second or 10 mph, perhaps. Inquiring minds want to know.

[kazin 1]

Don't forget it depends on your shooting technique.

I haven't tried a top end low kick in lower flex (used an APX in 87), but I did find it had a quicker snap

[PMurphy17 25]

I was trying to quote Junkyard's post but it didn't take and it won't let me copy it into here...

they might release that before they ever mention the amount of shots it takes for performance to drop-off.

[Cavs019 710]

This isnt really a good way to judge things either as there is no guarantee that the flex profile of a pros stick is the same as the retail version of the one they're supposedly using. Many use custom flex patterns and just cause its painted like a model that is low kick, doesnt mean that what is under the paint is indeed low kick.

Agree 100%. The examples I've provided I've owned the respective player's pro stock stick (except Bossy, but wood is wood) and can confirm what's under the paint, so I tried to use that as my reference point as opposed to the eyeball test watching live or on TV.