Blade Movement in Tuuk LS Edge Holders

[darkhors 88]

24 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

Problem with sloppy fit is that every stride the steel bangs the plastic parts inside the holder and wears them out at a progressively higher rate. It is like a bad ball joint in the suspension, once it starts clicking, it just getting worse and worse and eventually falls apart 

Yeah I get what you're saying. I'm just thinking that if it's ever so slight it's probably not a huge deal, but I hear what you're saying about progressive break down.

[Sniper9 518]

1 hour ago, darkhors said:

This thread got me thinking... are we making a bigger deal about this than we need to. Given the new, "popularity" shall we say, of the Marsblade ice holders, if the steel is moving ever so slightly up and down would it be reasonable to say that it's similar to the effect that the Marsblade offers? I'm not saying you're going to necessarily get the performance benefits that you would with Marsblade, but my thought is that maybe we're making a big deal about it because we're just used to having the steel be super tight. 

Now, if the steel is moving side to side, then I think that would be more of an issue because of how the edges would be contacting the ice. Up and down though, doesn't seem to me like it would be that big of a deal. Thoughts?? 

You may be right that we, and I may be making a bigger deal than it really is. But it's in my head now and it's going to bug me now that I know it's there or it will eventually happen. If it doesn't get worse over time that's fine, but if it does it means it's something I'll have to constantly monitor which is mentally exhausting. I just like the piece of mind with the ls2 holder. I had them.on my one100 for the 7 years I had the skates. No issues at all. Went through two sets of steel and they are still super snug. 

With all the diff companies making steel these days, there may also be some play in ls2 holders though, who knows. I've only ever used ls2 and ls3 steel for my ls2 holders. For my edge I've used step, tydan and ls3. Step was the loosest, tydan was pretty snug but some minor clicking, and ls3 was pretty good overall. So it could be the steel tolerance, or the holder, or both. And just that the edge has a more sensitive tolerance because of it's locking mechanism being plastic components vs a nut and bolt that can be adjusted in the ls2. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Sniper9

[Vet88 673]

3 hours ago, darkhors said:

This thread got me thinking... are we making a bigger deal about this than we need to. Given the new, "popularity" shall we say, of the Marsblade ice holders, if the steel is moving ever so slightly up and down would it be reasonable to say that it's similar to the effect that the Marsblade offers? I'm not saying you're going to necessarily get the performance benefits that you would with Marsblade, but my thought is that maybe we're making a big deal about it because we're just used to having the steel be super tight. 

Now, if the steel is moving side to side, then I think that would be more of an issue because of how the edges would be contacting the ice. Up and down though, doesn't seem to me like it would be that big of a deal. Thoughts?? 

Every edge holder I have seen that was clicking, when I put it in the carriage to sharpen the boot flopped. Put 200lbs of force into the boot as you push half way thru your stride and that sideways flex is only going to get worse. Whilst you can skate like this, its the loss of speed and edge control that is the worry. Testing players from standing starts (using electronic timers) and then I repair the holder (using teflon tape and pressing the blade into the holder for a secure fit) and they are all quicker in the next set of tests.

You raise an interesting point, how will Marsblade deal with this? It's one thing to have it feel good as you turn and glide but if you suffer any loss of speed during acceleration then it's not going to work.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Wait a minute..... So you mean there is an issue with the trigger holder??? No way you guys are BSing. 

 

😂😂😂

[Sniper9 518]

7 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Every edge holder I have seen that was clicking, when I put it in the carriage to sharpen the boot flopped. Put 200lbs of force into the boot as you push half way thru your stride and that sideways flex is only going to get worse. Whilst you can skate like this, its the loss of speed and edge control that is the worry. Testing players from standing starts (using electronic timers) and then I repair the holder (using teflon tape and pressing the blade into the holder for a secure fit) and they are all quicker in the next set of tests.

You raise an interesting point, how will Marsblade deal with this? It's one thing to have it feel good as you turn and glide but if you suffer any loss of speed during acceleration then it's not going to work.

Can u send me a pm regarding what you mean exactly when repairing with the tape. I am picturing the below link, but in case you had a diff method 

http://blogs.sparxhockey.com/stop-the-clicking-fix-your-loose-steel-with-this-hockey-hack

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Sniper9

[darkhors 88]

22 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Every edge holder I have seen that was clicking, when I put it in the carriage to sharpen the boot flopped. Put 200lbs of force into the boot as you push half way thru your stride and that sideways flex is only going to get worse. Whilst you can skate like this, its the loss of speed and edge control that is the worry. Testing players from standing starts (using electronic timers) and then I repair the holder (using teflon tape and pressing the blade into the holder for a secure fit) and they are all quicker in the next set of tests.

You raise an interesting point, how will Marsblade deal with this? It's one thing to have it feel good as you turn and glide but if you suffer any loss of speed during acceleration then it's not going to work.

What's interesting with the Marsblade is 2 things: First the blade looks to be held in the holder with 2 bolts, but not a direct connection with the blade. The bolts run between the carbon fiber rocker bar (which is held in place at the toe/heel ends of the steel) and the actual steel. So really it's a true floating runner. The second noticeable difference is that the runner sits in what looks to be a polyurethane "boot", if you will, that seems to take up more volume than the runner itself which could be so that it doesn't move side to side. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

18 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Can u send me a pm regarding what you mean exactly when repairing with the tape. I am picturing the below link, but in case you had a diff method 

http://blogs.sparxhockey.com/stop-the-clicking-fix-your-loose-steel-with-this-hockey-hack

 

Those blades and holders in the pictures are garbage and should be replaced? Why bother fixing junk? I said this was happening 3 years ago and everyone said I was on Crack. Guess it was good stuff!

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

3 hours ago, darkhors said:

What's interesting with the Marsblade is 2 things: First the blade looks to be held in the holder with 2 bolts, but not a direct connection with the blade. The bolts run between the carbon fiber rocker bar (which is held in place at the toe/heel ends of the steel) and the actual steel. So really it's a true floating runner. The second noticeable difference is that the runner sits in what looks to be a polyurethane "boot", if you will, that seems to take up more volume than the runner itself which could be so that it doesn't move side to side. 

The new CCM quick release holder will be the new go-to holder! Saying it now. 

[Vet88 673]

18 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Can u send me a pm regarding what you mean exactly when repairing with the tape. I am picturing the below link, but in case you had a diff method 

http://blogs.sparxhockey.com/stop-the-clicking-fix-your-loose-steel-with-this-hockey-hack

 

Yes that's the method but the Teflon tape I use is too rigid to fold over so I cut strips for each side then lightly chamfer the top of the strip (when it is on the blade) so that it inserts easier into the holder. I have various thicknesses of Teflon tape and try thicker ones on just the center of the blade until I can't get the blade to fit in by hand. Then I set the rest of the blade up and use clamps to press fit the blade.

btw I tried masking tape and it works but after a short time it starts to go off and degrades causing the blade to get loose again.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Vet88

[Sniper9 518]

48 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Yes that's the method but the Teflon tape I use is too rigid to fold over so I cut strips for each side then lightly chamfer the top of the strip (when it is on the blade) so that it inserts easier into the holder. I have various thicknesses of Teflon tape and try thicker ones on just the center of the blade until I can't get the blade to fit in by hand. Then I set the rest of the blade up and use clamps to press fit the blade.

btw I tried masking tape and it works but after a short time it starts to go off and degrades causing the blade to get loose again.

I would think the sock tape would do a good job. Anything thicker to reduce the play, I wouldn't even bother as that's just way too much play to try to fix. 

[Sniper9 518]

Just tried the tape method using only Scotch tape as sock tape would have been too thick and it worked like a charm. Let's see how long it will last if I don't remove my blade (which I don't intend to do)

Also just for kicks, I swapped the tydan with the ls3 I had laying around and it fit snug no clicks movement, nothing. You could also visibly see less gap between the holder and the ls3 steel where it clicked with the tydans. So either Bauer made their steel thicker to compensate for possible fit issues, or it just so happened the one set of ls3s I have is on the thicker side, OR Bauer steel fits best bc it's their steel for their holder? 

Oldtrainerguy, do you have issues with lateral move movement with ls steel too, or primarily with other aftermarket brands?

I actually wonder now if its not even an issue with the trigger and just the width of the blade channels vs the diff variable widths of steel out there.  And because so many people have the edge holder, it makes  it seem like it's an edge holder issue?  I mean the trigger holds the blade in place but even the bolt of an ls2 holder wouldn't prevent side to side movement of the steel if the channels were just a hair too wide...... And I've also read a post earlier about steel being so tall now that it puts more strain on the holders which were developed for older height blades.  

Anyways, I think this will be my last post about holders etc. I'm occupying way too much time worrying over something so petty. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Sniper9

[Sniper9 518]

I know I said the previous was my last post but I wanted to provide an update. Went for my first skate with my new edge and tydan blades and the up down movement on the left skate was very noticeable. To the point it caused me to toe pick here and there. I've also figured out it's a combination of the holders and steels tolerances. 

I lined up the ls3 steel to the tydans and there's def a shape diff. The tydans front hook is a bit shorter than the ls3 so the hook doesn't sit all the way into the notch for the hook of the holder (likely causing the play since it throws the rest of the proportions off a bit). The funny thing is that it doesn't seem to effect the right holder so it could be a left holder mold tolerance ... But for sure the ls3 steel is molded more specifically for the edge holders. 

Since I'm 0/2 for left edge holders with this problem on both step and tydan steel, I don't think I'm going to try to warranty and get another left holder since I think the problem will.stil exist. I've decided to just put back my step holders on and cut my losses. Just a shame my tydan steel will.br collecting dust if I can't sell them. 

[Kgbeast 195]

27 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

I know I said the previous was my last post but I wanted to provide an update. Went for my first skate with my new edge and tydan blades and the up down movement on the left skate was very noticeable. To the point it caused me to toe pick here and there. I've also figured out it's a combination of the holders and steels tolerances. 

I lined up the ls3 steel to the tydans and there's def a shape diff. The tydans front hook is a bit shorter than the ls3 so the hook doesn't sit all the way into the notch for the hook of the holder (likely causing the play since it throws the rest of the proportions off a bit). The funny thing is that it doesn't seem to effect the right holder so it could be a left holder mold tolerance ... But for sure the ls3 steel is molded more specifically for the edge holders. 

Since I'm 0/2 for left edge holders with this problem on both step and tydan steel, I don't think I'm going to try to warranty and get another left holder since I think the problem will.stil exist. I've decided to just put back my step holders on and cut my losses. Just a shame my tydan steel will.br collecting dust if I can't sell them. 

Have you tried swapping left and right blades? Have you compared the two tydan blades see if there is a difference between the two?

Edited January 28, 2018 by Kgbeast

[Sniper9 518]

41 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

Have you tried swapping left and right blades? Have you compared the two tydan blades see if there is a difference between the two?

Yea I have. It seems to only be an issue with the holder just like with my black edge holders which were brand new.  It's not a tydan defect. It's just something for whatever reason is causing issues with the left holders. Not sure if it's the trigger system that causing overall fit issues or not.  I just need to give up on these holders or settle with only using Bauer steel potentially. I actually have a feeling the different rear hook on the afternarket steels like step and tydan may have something to do with it. If you compare those with the ls steel u can see there's extra notches on step and tydan

[stick9 881]

@Sniper9  If the Tyden blades are moving enough to cause you to toe pick, that’s probably enough to get a replacement set from Tyden. I’d document the movement and contact Tyden. That to me would warrent replacements or a refund.

[stick9 881]

7 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

Yea I have. It seems to only be an issue with the holder just like with my black edge holders which were brand new.  It's not a tydan defect. It's just something for whatever reason is causing issues with the left holders. Not sure if it's the trigger system that causing overall fit issues or not.  I just need to give up on these holders or settle with only using Bauer steel potentially. I actually have a feeling the different rear hook on the afternarket steels like step and tydan may have something to do with it. If you compare those with the ls steel u can see there's extra notches on step and tydan

Those differences are to work around Bauer’s patent. Both companies have designed steel to work in those holders.

I use Step in my Edge holders and it’s the opposite effect, they are total pain to get and out.

[Sniper9 518]

1 hour ago, stick9 said:

@Sniper9  If the Tyden blades are moving enough to cause you to toe pick, that’s probably enough to get a replacement set from Tyden. I’d document the movement and contact Tyden. That to me would warrent replacements or a refund.

I've contacted them and am awaiting a reply. I've also asked to exchange for steel for ls2 holders if a refund isn't possible.

[Sniper9 518]

1 hour ago, stick9 said:

Those differences are to work around Bauer’s patent. Both companies have designed steel to work in those holders.

I use Step in my Edge holders and it’s the opposite effect, they are total pain to get and out.

It's good they are able to work around the patent but it's obvious it is causing some fit issues, whether it's happening a lot or just bad luck for me.  Most people wouldn't test the fit of their steel to the extent that I do but once it's in your head.... The ls2 holders have the best fit out of the edge, and step holders I have right now. Even the step holders which have the same bolt system as the ls2 have up and down play when I push the blade into the ground with alot of weight. I can live with that because it's like that for BOTH holders and will feel the same on both feet. Whereas the edge one foot I have to skate a certain way not to toe pick while the right I'm fine. Not sure I'd that makes sense. The play itself isn't a huge deal but the non uniformity is. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Sniper9

[start_today 757]

On 1/25/2018 at 1:30 PM, darkhors said:

This thread got me thinking... are we making a bigger deal about this than we need to.

Ever since I read multiple people complaining about it, and then saw it in person, I can't believe people aren't making an even bigger deal out of it. If this were Graf, people would be killing them for it, but I suspect since its Bauer they are getting a pass. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by start_today

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

29 minutes ago, start_today said:

Ever since I read multiple people complaining about it, and then saw it in person, I can't believe people aren't making an even bigger deal out of it. If this were Graf, people would be killing them for it, but I suspect since its Bauer they are getting a pass. 

Exactley.

[Buzz_LightBeer 962]

"BEST DESIGN FLAW EVER!!!!!!!!!!"

[Sniper9 518]

Dropped the skates off at the LHS to have the ls2s swapped in..... need this headache to be over lol

Edited January 29, 2018 by Sniper9

[Sniper9 518]

Picked the skates up from my lhs with the ls2s mounted. Swapped the ls2 steel that came with the holders with my old ls3s that we're on my one100. Man the feeling of tightening that bolt... And having the steel nice and snug from front to back.  The nightmare is over 🤪😁👌

[gosinger 122]

@Sniper9 I'm interested in your experience, I just fixed my Edge + Step setup with tape but I am a little concerned about the holder, and as I have plenty of spare LS2 holders + blades moving "down" might be an option to consider,

[Sniper9 518]

13 minutes ago, gosinger said:

@Sniper9 I'm interested in your experience, I just fixed my Edge + Step setup with tape but I am a little concerned about the holder, and as I have plenty of spare LS2 holders + blades moving "down" might be an option to consider,

I wouldn't consider it moving down. The only benefit the edge holder offers is the ease of swapping steel which realistically the majority of rec players don't even utilize. The cast majority use the same steel from day one until they need to replace it due to wear or even lasts for the life of their skates. 

The extra 3mm height of the edge is negligible esp with all the tall steel out there today. I found with the step steel and edge holders, I even felt way too high up. To each their own though.