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MD56

"The Truth about Hockey Stick Flex"

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Hope this isn't something that's been beaten to death already, but i found a good article from HockeyStickMan about stick flex. Specifically around pro stock being longer, and dispelling the concern that cutting one down to a retail height will dramatically increase the flex.

In summary, the guy's assertion is that if you have two 85 flex twigs, one being a retail 60" and the other a longer pro stock 66", if you cut them both to say 59" they should have the exact same feel. 

Just to be clear, he's not saying that cutting a stick does not effect the feel / flex, but more that starting with a longer stick and cutting it down should not have any more effect than starting with a retail length and cutting down.

The logic seems sound, and this is actually something that I'd been concerned about with buying pro stock. I'd be curious to hear what a manufactures take on this would be also. 

Full article: https://www.hockeystickman.com/blogs/hockey-stick-alerts/40761601-the-truth-about-hockey-stick-flex

Edited by MD56

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While still very much a newbie, it is my understanding that the flex rating IS based on the actual stick length.  This would mean that two sticks with 85 flex ratings, one being 58" and the other being 62" in length, would actually have a different construction.  The longer of the two sticks will need to be slightly stiffer to limit the flex to obtain an  85 flex rating.

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6 minutes ago, proth0303 said:

While still very much a newbie, it is my understanding that the flex rating IS based on the actual stick length.  This would mean that two sticks with 85 flex ratings, one being 58" and the other being 62" in length, would actually have a different construction.  The longer of the two sticks will need to be slightly stiffer to limit the flex to obtain an  85 flex rating.

I was thinking the same thing.  I'm no composites engineer, but if flex is deflection of a certain amount, it should be easier to deflect a longer length of anything than a shorter length of anything.  So structurally the longer thing would need to be made stiffer to deflect the same amount as the shorter.  So if flex is the same for both as originally designed, cutting both to the same length, stick #2 (the longer originally) would be stiffer. 

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Howdy,

2 minutes ago, Gummer12 said:

Flex ratings aren't measured from the tips.  This has been discussed in other threads. 

Yep.  And manufacturers apparently differ in how they measure flex.

Warrior reps have said on here that they use a U-shaped fixture to measure stick flex.  Conceptually, they place the stick across the U, put weight in the middle, and measure how much weight it takes to flex the stick an inch.

That means that the flex rating of the stick doesn't change, since you're cutting off length from beyond the edges of the U fixture.  So the article is right, if you assume the same fixture is used between the 85 flex ProStock at 66" and the 85 flex retail stick at 60".  Both sticks get put across the fixture which has its legs at 50" (or whatever), both take the same amount of weight to flex an inch, so if you cut both to the same length, they'll feel the same.

Where that breaks down is if they're not measured across the same fixture, either because its a different manufacturer or because "we use a different fixture for ProStock" (or intermediate or junior, or whatever).

Mark

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I imagine it would have more of an impact on "constant flex" shafts like the old Easton Ultra Lite or CCM RBZ. I use low kick sticks (see: Bauer Vapor, Warrior Widow/DT/QR) and don't notice any change with adjustments in length as these sticks are designed to flex/kick just above the blade. 

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4 minutes ago, marka said:

Howdy,

Yep.  And manufacturers apparently differ in how they measure flex.

Warrior reps have said on here that they use a U-shaped fixture to measure stick flex.  Conceptually, they place the stick across the U, put weight in the middle, and measure how much weight it takes to flex the stick an inch.

That means that the flex rating of the stick doesn't change, since you're cutting off length from beyond the edges of the U fixture.  So the article is right, if you assume the same fixture is used between the 85 flex ProStock at 66" and the 85 flex retail stick at 60".  Both sticks get put across the fixture which has its legs at 50" (or whatever), both take the same amount of weight to flex an inch, so if you cut both to the same length, they'll feel the same.

Where that breaks down is if they're not measured across the same fixture, either because its a different manufacturer or because "we use a different fixture for ProStock" (or intermediate or junior, or whatever).

Mark

Got it.  Thanks!  

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I thought flex ratings were generally based on a standard stick length like 60", so that if a stick is longer, it's flex rating would still be based on how stiff it would be if it were 60" long. I don't care what anyone says, simple physics tells you that if you shorten a stick, it will become stiffer. Free flex zones are nonsense to me. If a stick is stiff near the handle and softer in the middle like a lot of mid kick sticks, then the effect would be lessened, but it's still there. Cutting a stick makes it stiffer. I don't know why the flex thing has always been so hard for people to figure out. When they started putting flex markings showing what the flex of a stick would be when cut down, everyone started tripping out and saying that they were using a 94 flex or a 102 flex or something stupid, and then worrying about it. The fact was they were still using the same flex as they always had, say an 85 cut down a few inches, but now they had proof that the stick was stiffer after cutting. Nothing had actually changed. I use a 77 flex Bauer cut down exactly 2". I don't know what the actual flex is now, and I don't care. I like the way it feels.

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Keep in mind that the number on the stick indicating flex is a reference number only. This is simply to ensure that when you break your say Bauer X1 stick in 85 flex, you can simply buy another Bauer X1 85 flex stick and it will be close for the girls in the neighborhood. This number is not there so you to measure pounds and calculate if it matches your weight and height. The flex of the stick may or may not anything to do with how tall and heavy are you, it probably has more to do what you play and how you play. You can grab a random handful of 6' and 190lb NHL players and find out that every one of them uses different marked flex probably ranging from 100 to 75, with all different stick lengths. Other thing about flexes is that based on material and construction, the same flex, feels different because the pound/inch deflection measurement missing the time component. Some sticks are more responsive to load and rebound and feel snappy, while others are less responsive and feel dampening. Plus the stiffness of the blade will further confuse the issue once you go from one manufacturer to the next. 

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So here's a question, why are pro stocks generally longer? Is it just to give the pro's more customization options? I would think that most pro's, not being overly tall guys would still end up cutting those sticks down closer to a normal retail length. If there's anything to that, it seems like OEM's would be wasting a lot of material making those longer sticks stiffer. 

Edited by MD56

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21 minutes ago, MD56 said:

So here's a question, why are pro stocks generally longer? Is it just to give the pro's more customization options? I would think that most pro's, not being overly tall guys would still end up cutting those sticks down closer to a normal retail length. If there's anything to that, it seems like OEM's would be wasting a lot of material making those longer sticks stiffer. 

your average NHL player is still taller than your average retail consumer. Regardless, they are usually produced at whatever length the pro specifies (at least to my knowledge), not one generic length. You may be confusing this with retail offerings that are designated as Pro, like warriors QR Pro, which is not a Pro stock.

Edited by Stewie

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Interesting stuff, so let me get this straight. If I have a chara warrior stick with 120 flex and a retail length warrior 120 flex (I know they don't make it at retail just bear with me). And I chop a foot and a half off of the chara stick to fit me and then chop off 4 inches of my retail stick that they will have the same flex? 

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1 hour ago, kyleo29 said:

Interesting stuff, so let me get this straight. If I have a chara warrior stick with 120 flex and a retail length warrior 120 flex (I know they don't make it at retail just bear with me). And I chop a foot and a half off of the chara stick to fit me and then chop off 4 inches of my retail stick that they will have the same flex? 

It is quite possible with warrior stick as they have this flex free Zone gag, which implies that flex is measured on a fixed part of the stick where the "foot and a half" or the "4 inches" part is outside of measured flex which is marked on the stick. That said, Chara with uncut stick, will actually have longer stick than you and hence experience flexier stick than you.

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This is a very interesting discussion. I can actually see this being mostly true, but not entirely. You may not be changing the flex that actually matters when shooting the puck. Considering the majority of the flex used for a shot happens below your bottom hand, especially with "low-kick" sticks, the flex area they measure is likely well below where anyone would cut the stick. With stick technology where it is now, the elastic modulus of the stick material probably differs greatly throughout the length of the stick... Cutting off the top of the stick probably changes the flex a minuscule amount.

Edited by Pez68

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18 hours ago, Stewie said:

your average NHL player is still taller than your average retail consumer. Regardless, they are usually produced at whatever length the pro specifies (at least to my knowledge), not one generic length. You may be confusing this with retail offerings that are designated as Pro, like warriors QR Pro, which is not a Pro stock.

I'm sure they have more generic height options, but not sure that sticks are talor made to super specific heights. Almost any NHL'er stick prep video you watch starts with them at the chop saw. 

Quick google search proves your point about NHL'ers being taller though(avg 6'2) so gotta give you that one

17 hours ago, kyleo29 said:

Interesting stuff, so let me get this straight. If I have a chara warrior stick with 120 flex and a retail length warrior 120 flex (I know they don't make it at retail just bear with me). And I chop a foot and a half off of the chara stick to fit me and then chop off 4 inches of my retail stick that they will have the same flex? 

Haha, i guess it comes back again to how they test it. If they do all of their testing on a standardized fixture like someone mentioned above (50 or 60") then i suppose it's possible they could have the same feel. On the other hand, the flex on the Chara stick is calculated going tip to tip, then you probably have a point. 

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The answer is...It Depends

It depends on how stick maker A made and tested his stick from stick maker B AND how they may have designed their stick to flex.

Notice that many stick maker DO NOT get into the arguement...they dont want to tip off the competition to what makes them unique.  If this was about wood sticks...I would just ignore the whole debate.  But with composite many variables can be added and change things...sorta like adjustment of flex points.

If the stick maker is touting a flex free zone, I would speculate that they are measuring the flex of the stick at a shorter point and then adding something to that top 4 inches to stiffen up that area.

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I know we are discussing taller Pro Stocks.  It is my understanding typically stick manufacturers have a set of standard lengths they measure sticks at so for example Bauer a senior retail stick is 60".  If I pro wants their stick taller they add a 4" extension.  If the stick is originally 87 flex and the pro wants it taller its still measured at 87 flex at 60" long if you add the 4" extension the stick at 64" will actually feel like a 82ish flex.  Here is a screen shot from mybauer stating adding a 4" extension will make the stick play softer.

Screen%20Shot%202017-02-09%20at%201.25.3

 

Source: A lot of reading on mod squad and cutting down taller pro stock sticks of the same build.  I had a retail hight 1N that was pro stock and cut it to my usual length.  A few months later I bought another 1N which was taller than retail cut it down, and it felt the same.  Of course there are different variables to this.  

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Interesting - I'll have to boot back over to OSX and give it a try (been running bootcamp for Windows 10 for work for...years). It's been broken for me since I finally got back into hockey over the summer in Chrome, Firefox, Edge, and (cringe) IE.  

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23 minutes ago, tcraig said:

Interesting - I'll have to boot back over to OSX and give it a try (been running bootcamp for Windows 10 for work for...years). It's been broken for me since I finally got back into hockey over the summer in Chrome, Firefox, Edge, and (cringe) IE.  

FWIW I opened up my Windows 10 VM, and it wouldn't load.  Looks like its the same for my Windows 7 VM too.  I just have IE on those since I don't use them for the internet.  They are just for internal work stuff that can only run on Windows.

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21 hours ago, strosedefence34 said:

FWIW I opened up my Windows 10 VM, and it wouldn't load.  Looks like its the same for my Windows 7 VM too.  I just have IE on those since I don't use them for the internet.  They are just for internal work stuff that can only run on Windows.

Working just fine for me on Chrome OS.

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