VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[Hills 712]

1 hour ago, mojo122 said:

The problem I see at retail is that too many skaters, even those who have been skating forever, are skating in improperly fitted skates.  In my experience very FEW players actually need a custom skate.  

For those of you who don't mind excessive weight and overwrap then all the best to you.  Me, I'll go AS1 for my one-piece boot.  

I know you said you are done with this thread. But I'd be curious what you would put me in. I've tried FT1, AS1 and I still have foot pain in both skates, especially if I don't wear extremely thin socks. Only skates so far I am generally comfortable in after skating are my True goalie skates, but even those hurt like hell if I tighten the laces lower on the foot.

[JR Boucicaut 3798]

I can tell you in December.

Might be a posture issue. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

4 hours ago, stick9 said:

You’re right 100grams isnt much sitting in your hand. Hell its really not that much sitting on your foot at the shop. However, add a 100grams to each foot during a game and you better believe it matters.

Hopefully the misspell of the Great Ones name was just a typo, a terrible, horrible typo... 😏

Just an FYI The Great one wears them.  😏 As do about 10 other HHOF players. The weight doesn't seem to bother them nor the other 120 plus current NHL players.  

And there are some mighty fine skilled players wearing them past and present.  

Pavel Bure Wayne Gretzky Adam Oates Adam Graves Igor Larionov 

Mitch Marner Ryan Strome JVR Bozak and on and on. 

We all know its 80 to 100 grams but no it doesn't make that big a difference. 

If it truly did then 24 players in the Sharks organization wouldn't be wearing them.  (Team with the least amount of games lost to foot injury). 

 

[flip12 714]

7 hours ago, Larry54 said:

I would assume that the data they acquired from special cases like Byfuglien and Chara would be added to their process for making skates for other huge clients. Maybe they'll use your data to improve their process for guys of your size.

Byfuglien's a big guy but his feet aren't huge. I've seen his used MLX, VH, and True skates come up for sale in various online classifieds and he's a 10 or 10.5, iirc. Although they have to bear his heft, but they're not extraordinarily large pieces of footwear.

@mojo122 I know you say you're retiring from this thread, but can you elaborate on where you feel there's overwrap? Along the whole facing area or in a particular spot or spots?

[Leif 161]

7 hours ago, mojo122 said:

The MyBauer custom skate is not full custom by definition.  That merely offers length and true width (not knocking that at all) along with a choice of liner, modest selection of tongues, and steel.  Silk screening name and number to me cater to the young and foolish.  What I do like (if done right by the fitter) is the ability to size down or up off the scan by using retail skates to dial in how the skater wants the skate to fit.  What's also great is that the fitter can add detailed notes directly to the foot scan and they'll be addressed by the experts up at the custom factory. 

I was told that the Bauer custom skates (such as custom S2 Pro) are full customs with moulds made from the foot scans, and the boots are then built around the moulds. Am I mistaken? 

[JR Boucicaut 3798]

6 hours ago, Leif said:

I was told that the Bauer custom skates (such as custom S2 Pro) are full customs with moulds made from the foot scans, and the boots are then built around the moulds. Am I mistaken? 

That information is in the Bauer thread.

[VegasHockey 1280]

9 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Just an FYI The Great one wears them.  😏 As do about 10 other HHOF players. The weight doesn't seem to bother them nor the other 120 plus current NHL players.  

And there are some mighty fine skilled players wearing them past and present.  

Pavel Bure Wayne Gretzky Adam Oates Adam Graves Igor Larionov 

Mitch Marner Ryan Strome JVR Bozak and on and on. 

We all know its 80 to 100 grams but no it doesn't make that big a difference. 

If it truly did then 24 players in the Sharks organization wouldn't be wearing them.  (Team with the least amount of games lost to foot injury). 

 

At a professional level, all pro spec skates are very close to the same weight once you add shot block protection to them. I also agree that 50-150 grams is not a huge deal to a professional player who has legs built like tree trunks. However, for players under 16, even playing high-level, or red players (even high-level ones), 50-150 grams is a ton of weight. Just look at the studies that Byonic and others did to show how extra weight equates to over a course of an entire game. Lastly, most of the weight comes from the steel on true skates. Step steel, which great, is also VERY heavy. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Nicholas G

[Santos L Halper 90]

2 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

At a professional level, all pro spec skates are very close to the same weight once you add shot block protection to them. I also agree that 50-150 grams is not a huge deal to a professional player who has legs built like tree trunks. However, for players under 16, even playing high-level, or red players (even high-level ones), 50-150 grams is a ton of weight. Just look at the studies that Byonic and others did to show how extra weight equates to over a course of an entire game. Lastly, most of the weight comes from the steel on true skates. Step steel, which great, is also VERY heavy. 

As a parent, unless I was dealing with a biomechanical issue that is ONLY solve-able with custom skates, I would have a hard time buying True (or any fully custom) skates for a kid under 16 that has not reached his/her full development - and I'd imagine that the vast majority of parents feel the same way.  I understand that a few parents at the margins will pay whatever it costs to have the 'latest and greatest', but it just seems like a unnecessary waste of money to buy custom skates for a 14U player who's still got (potentially) upwards of three years of growing to do...

Anyway.

As a coach, I can tell you that after having my True skates for about 3 weeks, I no longer notice the weight difference - except when I pull them out of my bag...at which point, I'm like, 'HOLY S&#T, these are TANKS!' Once they're on my feet, however, it's all good and I don't notice anything.  Do keep in mind, however, I'm coaching, not playing.  If I were still playing at a high level, maybe I would notice that difference (in my case, my Trues are almost 21% heavier than my TotalOnes) in the third period?  I mean, I guess I probably would?

That said, what I DO notice is that my body mechanics are better in my Trues.  I have to 'think less' about maintaining proper ankle/knee/hip alignment when I'm showing the kids a drill, because my body naturally goes there...which is not to say that I DIDN'T have proper skating technique in my TotalOnes...but it just 'feels' more natural in my Trues.  Also, I KNOW I'm better on my edges.  It is absolutely indisputable.  Techniques that I used to put a HUGE amount of thought into executing properly now come smoothly and effortlessly. And I have also been able to drop from a 1/2' FBV/Fire sharpen to a 5/8" FBV/Fire, which has allowed me to noticeably increase the glide portion of my stride. 

As such, for me, AS A COACH, any weight increase has been more than offset by the performance benefit.  

 

____________________________

(N.B.  I am willing to stipulate that some of this perceived benefit of the Trues could be due to the placebo effect - i.e., I did SOMETHING (spent actual money on new skates) so my brain is telling itself that I'm doing a better job than I was before.  I've seen video and I think I look 'smoother'...but, again, maybe I'm just telling myself that?  Also, some of this benefit could be due to the obvious improvement of Step over Bauer stock steel...)

Edited September 4, 2018 by Santos L Halper
Clarity...

[VegasHockey 1280]

24 minutes ago, Santos L Halper said:

As a parent, unless I was dealing with a biomechanical issue that is ONLY solve-able with custom skates, I would have a hard time buying True (or any fully custom) skates for a kid under 16 that has not reached his/her full development - and I'd imagine that the vast majority of parents feel the same way.  I understand that a few parents at the margins will pay whatever it costs to have the 'latest and greatest', but it just seems like a unnecessary waste of money to buy custom skates for a 14U player who's still got (potentially) upwards of three years of growing to do...

Anyway.

As a coach, I can tell you that after having my True skates for about 3 weeks, I no longer notice the weight difference - except when I pull them out of my bag...at which point, I'm like, 'HOLY S&#T, these are TANKS!' Once they're on my feet, however, it's all good and I don't notice anything.  Do keep in mind, however, I'm coaching, not playing.  If I were still playing at a high level, maybe I would notice that difference (in my case, my Trues are almost 21% heavier than my TotalOnes) in the third period?  I mean, I guess I probably would?

That said, what I DO notice is that my body mechanics are better in my Trues.  I have to 'think less' about maintaining proper ankle/knee/hip alignment when I'm showing the kids a drill, because my body naturally goes there...which is not to say that I DIDN'T have proper skating technique in my TotalOnes...but it just 'feels' more natural in my Trues.  Also, I KNOW I'm better on my edges.  It is absolutely indisputable.  Techniques that I used to put a HUGE amount of thought into executing properly now come smoothly and effortlessly. And I have also been able to drop from a 1/2' FBV/Fire sharpen to a 5/8" FBV/Fire, which has allowed me to noticeably increase the glide portion of my stride. 

As such, for me, AS A COACH, any weight increase has been more than offset by the performance benefit.  

 

____________________________

(N.B.  I am willing to stipulate that some of this perceived benefit of the Trues could be due to the placebo effect - i.e., I did SOMETHING (spent actual money on new skates) so my brain is telling itself that I'm doing a better job than I was before.  I've seen video and I think I look 'smoother'...but, again, maybe I'm just telling myself that?  Also, some of this benefit could be due to the obvious improvement of Step over Bauer stock steel...)

I entirely agree with the skates putting peoples bodies in the proper position by default, as compared to other brands. But if you are a good skater and have proper technique this becomes a non-issue or benefit. As for age range, I dont think it matters if you can afford it. If a parent is gonna spend $$$ for an AS1 or FT1 they may as well spend a few bucks more and get their kid custom skates. I see more players with the "bauer bump" compared to previously and a lot of them are quite young. The youngest being 10. In Burnaby half of their selects team which is 10 and under use True skates. I am not saying the skates are not good, just that some players compare the weight between a retail AS1 or 1X and forget they are comparing a retail skate vs a pro spec skate. 

[flip12 714]

@Nicholas G, is a retail FT1 not within the range of pro-spec? Not all professional FT1 wearers add protection to them.

[Vet88 674]

4 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

I see more players with the "bauer bump" compared to previously and a lot of them are quite young. The youngest being 10.

Sadly this is a trend that is just going to get worse until kids / parents / coaches / players start to realise what is happening. You shouldn't put a developing player into a stiff skate that is fully laced up until they can balance properly on their edges and have full muscle control / good technique of the edge WITHOUT BOOT SUPPORT. Bauer bumps are going to become a plague and we are just starting to see the tip of the iceberg arriving now.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Vet88

[JR Boucicaut 3798]

It’s called a Haglund’s deformity. Get it right. It reeks of ignorance when referred to as a Bauer Bump. 

It can happen in any skate. And sadly, I think people who use that term to pin it on a particular skate brand don’t know why they occur in the first place. 

[Vet88 674]

Haglunds, Bauer, Pump bump. And I agree with you, I have no idea why the term Bauer bump has stuck for ice / inline hockey environment but sadly that is how 99% of the people out there know them as. Mention the word Haglunds and they look at you blankly.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Vet88

[JR Boucicaut 3798]

Then we educate them.  Repeating it is just perpetuating the issue. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

7 hours ago, flip12 said:

@Nicholas G, is a retail FT1 not within the range of pro-spec? Not all professional FT1 wearers add protection to them.

A retail FT1 is not even close to pro spec compared to a True skate. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Nicholas G

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

It’s called a Haglund’s deformity. Get it right. It reeks of ignorance when referred to as a Bauer Bump. 

It can happen in any skate. And sadly, I think people who use that term to pin it on a particular skate brand don’t know why they occur in the first place. 

I don't care what it's called. Thanks fact is I see it more with one brand than others and that "slang" is what most people understand it as, hence why I used it in quotations. 

[flip12 714]

1 hour ago, Nicholas G said:

A retail FT1 is not even close to pro spec compared to a True skate. 

How do you mean?

[Leif 161]

These people, and many others, accept various names for the heel problem:

http://www.aofas.org/PRC/conditions/Pages/Conditions/Haglund-Deformity.aspx

[JR Boucicaut 3798]

7 hours ago, Leif said:

These people, and many others, accept various names for the heel problem:

http://www.aofas.org/PRC/conditions/Pages/Conditions/Haglund-Deformity.aspx

That's a reference, not acceptance.  But the bigger issue is that people put it on one skate brand (which has the biggest retail market share), which is unfair.  For example:

10 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

I don't care what it's called. Thanks fact is I see it more with one brand than others and that "slang" is what most people understand it as, hence why I used it in quotations. 

I promise I am not trying to pick on you here, but I feel that in a professional setting it is best to refer to it by its correct name.  It carries more weight.

I used to have customers come to me and mention a Bauer bump, and I would correct them and tell them it's a Haglund's deformity.  They would thank me afterwards because now they were able to research it better on how/why it happens and how to treat it, because they didn't know exactly what it was.

[VegasHockey 1280]

8 hours ago, flip12 said:

How do you mean?

An FT1 has almost zero protection. Ever blocked a shot in one? The retail model has almost zero protection anywhere other than the ankle, and even there its thin compared to a True skate or even other brands. I have owned a few pairs of pro spec FT1 skates and they are marginally heavier than the retail model. There is more padding throughout the entire skate, clarino liner (optional) and thicker ankle pads (optional), and even the composite seems thicker. I am not sure a retail FT1 would be able to handle 30 days of abuse from a professional player before falling apart. Now, I am not picking on the FT1, because it is one of my favorite skates, I am merely stating facts when comparing retail vs pro spec skates. 

[Hills 712]

22 minutes ago, Nicholas G said:

An FT1 has almost zero protection. Ever blocked a shot in one? The retail model has almost zero protection anywhere other than the ankle, and even there its thin compared to a True skate or even other brands. I have owned a few pairs of pro spec FT1 skates and they are marginally heavier than the retail model. There is more padding throughout the entire skate, clarino liner (optional) and thicker ankle pads (optional), and even the composite seems thicker. I am not sure a retail FT1 would be able to handle 30 days of abuse from a professional player before falling apart. Now, I am not picking on the FT1, because it is one of my favorite skates, I am merely stating facts when comparing retail vs pro spec skates. 

If an NHLer blocked a shot in an FT1 I have a feeling there is a 90% chance in a broken bone.

[Santos L Halper 90]

15 hours ago, Vet88 said:

[snip]

You shouldn't put a developing player into a stiff skate that is fully laced up until they can balance properly on their edges and have full muscle control / good technique of the edge WITHOUT BOOT SUPPORT. 

[snip]

At risk of veering wildly off topic, I'd just like to say that, as a coach that does a fair bit of skating/edge-work with private clients, I couldn't agree with this more.  Parents ask me all the time, 'what skates should I buy?' - except in VERY rare instances, my response is always, "whatever NON TOP OF THE LINE skate fits the best".  

Top of the line skates are simply too stiff for the vast majority of youth players.

[VegasHockey 1280]

10 minutes ago, Santos L Halper said:

At risk of veering wildly off topic, I'd just like to say that, as a coach that does a fair bit of skating/edge-work with private clients, I couldn't agree with this more.  Parents ask me all the time, 'what skates should I buy?' - except in VERY rare instances, my response is always, "whatever NON TOP OF THE LINE skate fits the best".  

Top of the line skates are simply too stiff for the vast majority of youth players.

I agree with this, with the exception of True skates. 

[Santos L Halper 90]

17 minutes ago, Nicholas G said:

I agree with this, with the exception of True skates. 

Yep.  While I don't go out of my way to recommend Trues for most youth players, I don't actively recommend against them.  As alluded to earlier in the thread, unless a skater has a biomechanical issue that is best addressed with custom footwear, when asked about Trues, my response is generally something along the lines of:

"Hey, if you want to spend the money for customs, you can't go wrong with True.  However, go into it with your eyes open.  Your 9 year old's $800 skates WILL NOT fit him next year...and MAY not fit him by the end of this year; so you must be prepared to upgrade earlier than you otherwise might have to.  As a parent of a kid with a relatively 'normal' (albeit, wide) foot; I wouldn't go that route...but I can't deny liking my True skates and, in the end, it's your money!"

Edited September 5, 2018 by Santos L Halper
Clarity & grammar...

[CigarScott 132]

deleted

Edited September 10, 2018 by CigarScott
Accidentally replied to the wrong thread