VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[IPv6Freely 2092]

I think he meant people aren’t complaining anywhere but here, so shops don’t know about issues.

[Hills 712]

20 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

U should weigh them so you actually know the difference.  To me, even the weight of thr first generation trues vs my as1s were negligible. This whole weight this is getting out of control. 

No, I shouldn't because at this point it is possible weight distribution and just throwing them on the scale won't do anything for that. When I have both skates on at the same time and can feel a difference with every time I lift my foot I think talking about the weight thing is valid.

Something that people don't understand is being critical doesn't mean a product is bad. The fit and finish of these skates is horrendously bad and if Bauer did the same thing people would rip them apart. I asked for extra room in the toe box as I don't want my toes touching the ends when I am standing still, Trues solution to this was just to remove the black layer of foam in the toe box and not actually make the skate slightly longer. They were still too tight so I took out the red piece of foam as well. Doing so ripped out a decent chunk of plastic wrapping... that shouldn't be a thing and there is a reason why True tells you "make sure you go in the back when removing the foam in the toe box."

True makes a unique product that has a niche, but they also could do a bunch of things better that people really shouldn't be excusing them for. Instead of saying "this wear on your leather is fine and is just aesthetics on your $1000 skate" True should do better QC. But based on their new protective line and gloves I think it is pretty obvious True ignores majority of critical feedback.

At the end of the day I still bought True skates, and this will be my 2nd pair. But I'll always point out things where there could be improvement, I would also kill to have a comfort edge on True skates...

 

14 hours ago, Stewie said:

could also be that some people arent reporting the issues to the shops. Mine were easy enough fixes, just removing the taping material from the right skate vent inners, and cleaning up some of the other stuff. Just something that couldve been caught pre consumer to give a bit of a better impression, but nothing out there. Perhaps i am harder on stuff like this having worked in a QC lab prior to moving into research.

You thoughts are what everyone should expect.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Hills

[VegasHockey 1280]

18 minutes ago, Hills said:

No, I shouldn't because at this point it is possible weight distribution and just throwing them on the scale won't do anything for that. When I have both skates on at the same time and can feel a difference with every time I lift my foot I think talking about the weight thing is valid.

Something that people don't understand is being critical doesn't mean a product is bad. The fit and finish of these skates is horrendously bad and if Bauer did the same thing people would rip them apart. I asked for extra room in the toe box as I don't want my toes touching the ends when I am standing still, Trues solution to this was just to remove the black layer of foam in the toe box and not actually make the skate slightly longer. They were still too tight so I took out the red piece of foam as well. Doing so ripped out a decent chunk of plastic wrapping... that shouldn't be a thing and there is a reason why True tells you "make sure you go in the back when removing the foam in the toe box."

True makes a unique product that has a niche, but they also could do a bunch of things better that people really shouldn't be excusing them for. Instead of saying "this wear on your leather is fine and is just aesthetics on your $1000 skate" True should do better QC. But based on their new protective line and gloves I think it is pretty obvious True ignores majority of critical feedback.

At the end of the day I still bought True skates, and this will be my 2nd pair. But I'll always point out things where there could be improvement, I would also kill to have a comfort edge on True skates...

 

You thoughts are what everyone should expect.

The comfort edge is something I have been wanting for a very long time. To a point where I actually had spoke with a store that could fabricate and add one. I still don't understand why they don't add one. 

[Sniper9 530]

2 hours ago, z1ggy said:

I see.. But what do you mean by reporting it to the shop? Didn't you get scanned at a shop and then go in to get them heat molded to your feet when they first came in? Do you mean you saw small issues well after the fact with use?

 

Or maybe ppl didn't inspect as closely until they got home. And saw things not even worth their time and energy bringing up. Let's be honest, All the cosmetic blemishes aren't going to be repaired under warranty and if they are, it's not worth wasting weeks for a repair that's only cosmetic. 

I've learned my lesson and I'm going to inspect my skates thoroughly before bringing them home though, but for actual defects. I don't really care about cosmetic stuff. 

[Sniper9 530]

So I'm gonna post a pic of the "fix" true did on my brand new skates. For those who are new and haven't been following the tongue tab was defective and broke off when I brought the skates home from my fitter the same day. Here's a pic. 

I reached out to them and they said they would fix by epoxying a new tongue tab, which I found interesting since there's not much for the broken off tab to grab on to. After some emailing back and forth they told me they would likely replace the toecap. I decided to send them in because that seemed like a fix I wanted done to ensure things weren't just glued back together. 

THREE weeks go by... And finally I get a tracking number for my skate back. I figure it took a while bc replacing the toe cap probably isn't the easiest thing to do given how the boots are constructed. 

I get this back...

Needless to say I was pretty pissed. First off because all they did was epoxy the Velcro under the to cap, and then slapped on epoxy on the tab, which not only looks like shit, it really adds no functionality as it doesn't even do a good job holding the tab. I've since peeled that epoxy off as the Velcro holds fine just epoxied tot the underside of the toecap. 

This is the type of QC true thinks is fine. For a brand new skate that was defective out of the box. Anything less than a toecap replacement would have been unacceptable. I just don't have the time and energy and time lost without my skates to fight this battle that technically is "fixed". I've since done my own diy to make it esthetically acceptable. 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Sniper9

[Stewie 721]

3 hours ago, z1ggy said:

I see.. But what do you mean by reporting it to the shop? Didn't you get scanned at a shop and then go in to get them heat molded to your feet when they first came in? Do you mean you saw small issues well after the fact with use?

 

I went through the same process as everyone else. I noticed the masking tape issue in store, they offered to remove the masking tape from the right boot for me but I said I could just as easily do it and I would prefer that we waited for the boot to cool down to remove it. 

I glanced over the rest of the skate, but couldn’t really spend a lot of time looking at the bottom as I also had an appointment for a replacement of my cell phone which died, so was in a bit of a time crunch, and don’t get out to that side of town too often so maybe I overbooked. 

Again none of these issues weren’t fixable by me, and I’m overall happy with the skates. Perhaps as a consumer I didn’t spend enough time looking at every detail,  but then again, someone there has to have the job to do such a thing before the skate goes out. I guarantee if I was that person I would’ve caught these issues and cleaned them up really quick before sending out, because details matter.

All of these issues were noticed prior to usage as I have had them for 3 weeks but due to a wrist injury as well as a death in the family I hadn’t skated in a month prior to this week. I may mention the glue issue to the shop when I order the ice version, but like I’ve mentioned in another of my replies, the issue wouldn’t probably be noticeable on the ice skate due to where the holders are riveted on to the boot. 

Some other slight cosmetic issues on the boot exist but I don’t really care about those so much since it’s roller hockey and the boot is likely to get beat up anyways after some usage 🙂 

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, Sniper9 said:

Or maybe ppl didn't inspect as closely until they got home. And saw things not even worth their time and energy bringing up. Let's be honest, All the cosmetic blemishes aren't going to be repaired under warranty and if they are, it's not worth wasting weeks for a repair that's only cosmetic. 

I've learned my lesson and I'm going to inspect my skates thoroughly before bringing them home though, but for actual defects. I don't really care about cosmetic stuff. 

My opinion.

I think any issues with QC for most players are quickly ignored, unless they are a structural deficiency, because the skates are going to get beaten up playing hockey. If its anything that is only aesthetic most people don't really care all that much. I mean, I play with guys that have their hockey pants falling apart, gloves with holes covered in tape, shin pads held together with gorilla glue, and helmets that the liner wont even stay in. Most people aren't going to care about a little glue or whatever if the skate performs well and the cost for a full custom skates is significantly less than other brands. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Nicholas G

[z1ggy 81]

2 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

My opinion.

I think any issues with QC for most players are quickly ignored, unless they are a structural deficiency, because the skates are going to get beaten up playing hockey. If its anything that is only aesthetic most people don't really care all that much. I mean, I play with guys that have their hockey pants falling apart, gloves with holes covered in tape, shin pads held together with gorilla glue, and helmets that the liner wont even stay in. Most people aren't going to care about a little glue or whatever if the skate performs well and the cost for a full custom skates is significantly less than other brands. 

I always expect to have to tweak skates a bit and that they'll never be perfect right away. While it's pretty triggering to see a tongue tab break off.... it's like a 10 minute fix no? Velco pad, epoxy & secure that while it dries. I probably spend 4 hours tweaking my Mako's when I got them originally to fit my dang foot properly. Heating.. punching... The towers were also misaligned.

 

My FT2's so far have been pretty much flawless which I'm surprised by. FT1's had stitching coming loose in a few spots after about 10hrs.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

3 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

My opinion.

I think any issues with QC for most players are quickly ignored, unless they are a structural deficiency, because the skates are going to get beaten up playing hockey. If its anything that is only aesthetic most people don't really care all that much. I mean, I play with guys that have their hockey pants falling apart, gloves with holes covered in tape, shin pads held together with gorilla glue, and helmets that the liner wont even stay in. Most people aren't going to care about a little glue or whatever if the skate performs well and the cost for a full custom skates is significantly less than other brands. 

I don’t care about the cosmetic issues with my skates. I just don’t. Having something that doesn’t hurt my feet far outweighs anything that could be cosmetically wrong with them.

That said, I completely understand why people are bothered by it. It shouldn’t happen. I always joke that “first world problems are the worst problems because they’re always things that shouldn’t be problems in the first place”. I think the QC issues True continues to have kind of falls into that category. You may say it’s being nitpicky about things that don’t really matter. But at the same time they shouldn’t need to nitpick things that are easily fixable if they’d just put an ounce of time and effort into their QC process. 

I will say though, I saw a bit of irony as I was picking excess glue off my wife’s new Bauer skates... 

[Leif 161]

4 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

My opinion.

I think any issues with QC for most players are quickly ignored, unless they are a structural deficiency, because the skates are going to get beaten up playing hockey. If its anything that is only aesthetic most people don't really care all that much. I mean, I play with guys that have their hockey pants falling apart, gloves with holes covered in tape, shin pads held together with gorilla glue, and helmets that the liner wont even stay in. Most people aren't going to care about a little glue or whatever if the skate performs well and the cost for a full custom skates is significantly less than other brands. 

Here in the UK True skates are only slightly cheaper than Bauer customs, £733 compared to £780, so it’s a wash. What’s more, True charge for each customisation, eg £25 for letters/numbers on the tongue. To be honest this thread puts me off True skates. A friend has a pair, they do have globs of glue on them, they are wearing much faster than my Bauer customs, and he says his feet are numb after an hour skating. My Bauers were flawless, and they get more comfortable with skating, I’ve done 3 hours on the go and no problems. You’ve said True are no worse or better than Bauer, maybe, but this thread is one bad advert.

[Sniper9 530]

1 hour ago, z1ggy said:

I always expect to have to tweak skates a bit and that they'll never be perfect right away. While it's pretty triggering to see a tongue tab break off.... it's like a 10 minute fix no? Velco pad, epoxy & secure that while it dries. I probably spend 4 hours tweaking my Mako's when I got them originally to fit my dang foot properly. Heating.. punching... The towers were also misaligned.

 

My FT2's so far have been pretty much flawless which I'm surprised by. FT1's had stitching coming loose in a few spots after about 10hrs.

You can ten min epoxy fix anything that's broken. Doesn't mean it's ok for a brand new item to have this defect and for that to be the "fix".  If my skates were used and this happened due to game play, my expectations would obviously be lower.

Would you accept a new car or bike where u had to epoxy something together yourself because or a manufacturing defect?  Those are extreme examples but 1000 skates aren't cheap. And them doing that fix on a brand new pair of skates where the damage wasn't caused by me or game play is unacceptable. A fix for something brand new should be identical to a brand new item. 

It's like getting a brand new car that had a scratch on it and the dealer fixed it by using touch-up paint... 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Sniper9

[z1ggy 81]

9 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

You can ten min epoxy fix anything that's broken. Doesn't mean it's ok for a brand new item to have this defect and for that to be the "fix".  If my skates were used and this happened due to game play, my expectations would obviously be lower.

Would you accept a new car or bike where u had to epoxy something together yourself because or a manufacturing defect?  Those are extreme examples but 1000 skates aren't cheap. And them doing that fix on a brand new pair of skates where the damage wasn't caused by me or game play is unacceptable. A fix for something brand new should be identical to a brand new item. 

It's like getting a brand new car that had a scratch on it and the dealer fixed it by using touch-up paint... 

I understand your point, I and I agree it's lame something costing $1000 and brand new should be defect free.

They don't have rigorous QC though I would assume... and if they did I bet they'd cost way more.  Having the tongue come out is more like having your engine gasket leak after driving it 5 miles. However, with cars... they almost certainly run and check the engine and all major components prior to delivery. In my company, we build electric machinery and we test them for at least 3-4 hours prior to delivery and there's dozens of QC paper work. These are hockey skates so it's unlikely they are "test driving" these out before they get boxed up. I assume the skates have to be built to some kind of drawing or spec of some sort, then probably checked quickly for fit and finish. 

 

With the number of skates in the NHL and players who make millions of dollars putting their trust in True still, the quality issues must be few and far. Maybe players have 2 or 3 back up pair in case these things like tongue coming out happen, idk.

[Sniper9 530]

4 minutes ago, z1ggy said:

I understand your point, I and I agree it's lame something costing $1000 and brand new should be defect free.

They don't have rigorous QC though I would assume... and if they did I bet they'd cost way more.  Having the tongue come out is more like having your engine gasket leak after driving it 5 miles. However, with cars... they almost certainly run and check the engine and all major components prior to delivery. In my company, we build electric machinery and we test them for at least 3-4 hours prior to delivery and there's dozens of QC paper work. These are hockey skates so it's unlikely they are "test driving" these out before they get boxed up. I assume the skates have to be built to some kind of drawing or spec of some sort, then probably checked quickly for fit and finish. 

 

With the number of skates in the NHL and players who make millions of dollars putting their trust in True still, the quality issues must be few and far. Maybe players have 2 or 3 back up pair in case these things like tongue coming out happen, idk.

The thing that bothers me the most was their crappy "fix". Things get overlooked during QC. Or are considered "acceptable" to TRUES standards. That's fine. Like I said I don't care much for esthetics as long as it doesn't affect performance and structure. The tongue tab on the brink of breaking off, imo, would've been easy to spot as the person who stitched the Velcro to the tab made so many passes with the sewing machine (as seen in my pic above), there were more holes than plastic left.  It was overlooked or decided that it wasn't an issue, but it did become an issue. Which they fixed by pretty much putting a glob of epoxy resin on it... 

The fix will likely Outlast the skates itself as the tongue doesn't really put any stress on the epoxied Velcro.  If it doesn't last, I'm just going to re attached the Velcro with t nut and screw like the older version vh's. 

The fit and performance of the skates will probably keep me as a customer though. 🙄

I'm just venting at this point and apologize for those having to read this like I had to read all those posts by Smu. So I'll end my ranting within this post. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, Leif said:

Here in the UK True skates are only slightly cheaper than Bauer customs, £733 compared to £780, so it’s a wash. What’s more, True charge for each customisation, eg £25 for letters/numbers on the tongue. To be honest this thread puts me off True skates. A friend has a pair, they do have globs of glue on them, they are wearing much faster than my Bauer customs, and he says his feet are numb after an hour skating. My Bauers were flawless, and they get more comfortable with skating, I’ve done 3 hours on the go and no problems. You’ve said True are no worse or better than Bauer, maybe, but this thread is one bad advert.

Meh, I know plenty of people that would hammer on Bauer, and people who pick on TRUE and others that think CCM is crap. Its just a matter of opinion. In the end, people should go with what works best for them. There is no one thing that is "better" than another. It's the same with sticks, gloves and other things.

I mean, lets be real. Is Tesla better than Jeep? Maybe, depends on your needs and wants. If I want to go driving off-road you surely are not going to buy a Tesla. 

I think all of this back and forth is silly and draining. I like all the different models and brands of skates and think they all have pros and cons. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

13 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

Meh, I know plenty of people that would hammer on Bauer, and people who pick on TRUE and others that think CCM is crap. Its just a matter of opinion. In the end, people should go with what works best for them. There is no one thing that is "better" than another. It's the same with sticks, gloves and other things.

I mean, lets be real. Is Tesla better than Jeep? Maybe, depends on your needs and wants. If I want to go driving off-road you surely are not going to buy a Tesla. 

I think all of this back and forth is silly and draining. I like all the different models and brands of skates and think they all have pros and cons. 

10000% agree. 

Here are some straight up facts about all 3.

 

True. QC isnt where it needs to be. 

Bauer. Absolutely the worst for blade alignment. 

CCM.  The worst for protection although for the right foot comfortable.  

 

As @Nicholas G says you just have to pick your poison.  

[Hills 712]

The best part about True skates is when you have at least 3 people every time comment "you should know by now there are QC issues" or "these are cosmetic and will have no affect on performance"... etc... etc instead of saying "Yeah they should change this"

[z1ggy 81]

Has or is anybody tracking this so called QC issue with time of year? I wonder if more issues pop up during the NHL season than they would say if you ordered skates between June and Sept?

[Hills 712]

On 8/27/2019 at 12:12 PM, Sniper9 said:

So I'm gonna post a pic of the "fix" true did on my brand new skates. For those who are new and haven't been following the tongue tab was defective and broke off when I brought the skates home from my fitter the same day. Here's a pic. 

 

I reached out to them and they said they would fix by epoxying a new tongue tab, which I found interesting since there's not much for the broken off tab to grab on to. After some emailing back and forth they told me they would likely replace the toecap. I decided to send them in because that seemed like a fix I wanted done to ensure things weren't just glued back together. 

THREE weeks go by... And finally I get a tracking number for my skate back. I figure it took a while bc replacing the toe cap probably isn't the easiest thing to do given how the boots are constructed. 

I get this back...

 

Needless to say I was pretty pissed. First off because all they did was epoxy the Velcro under the to cap, and then slapped on epoxy on the tab, which not only looks like shit, it really adds no functionality as it doesn't even do a good job holding the tab. I've since peeled that epoxy off as the Velcro holds fine just epoxied tot the underside of the toecap. 

This is the type of QC true thinks is fine. For a brand new skate that was defective out of the box. Anything less than a toecap replacement would have been unacceptable. I just don't have the time and energy and time lost without my skates to fight this battle that technically is "fixed". I've since done my own diy to make it esthetically acceptable. 

 

Removed Photos for easier reading

Did you have to pay to send those back? Or did they cover shipping.

[flip12 714]

The nature of True’s zero negative space fit could lend itself to these struggles too. Comparing them to what you see from Bauer and CCM at retail isn’t really apples to apples. With less filler in the mix custom Trues seem to be a tricky puzzle of cookie cutter pieces that must come together on a more unique target form with each pair. In my opinion, this is some of the growing pains you get from a speed skate maker making further and further inroads on the hockey market. Just consider that elite custom speed boots seem to run around $2K per pair, plus the claim from SVH that hockey boots are subject to far more substantial abuse from abrasions and impacts on the outside and perspiration on the inside. That and the sheer volume discrepancies between the hockey and speed skating markets point toward an adjustment phase where the techniques adapted from the one sea are firmly reapplied in the new one. Meantime, True’s market penetration keeps growing. That’s number one. 

[shoot_the_goalie 281]

On 8/18/2019 at 11:37 PM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

I disagree.  Had 2 high level guys had them since last Christmas and no issues with shot blocking.  And the best part was less wear... 

How do you mean less wear?  Because there's no felt?

[Leif 161]

37 minutes ago, flip12 said:

The nature of True’s zero negative space fit could lend itself to these struggles too. Comparing them to what you see from Bauer and CCM at retail isn’t really apples to apples. 

Yes, I agree, they should be compared to Bauer/CCM customs. I know four people with Bauer customs, including myself, all are perfect. But I won’t draw conclusions from a small sample. Incidentally I don’t have a dog in the race. I would have bought Trues if the shop wasn’t 250 miles away, compared to 25 miles away for the Bauer dealer who now stocks Trues! 

[Sniper9 530]

1 hour ago, Hills said:

Did you have to pay to send those back? Or did they cover shipping.

My fitter dealt with it but they received a prepaid shipping label from true. Pretty sure any repair within warranty period they don't charge you for shipping, at least they shouldn't. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

1 hour ago, shoot_the_goalie said:

How do you mean less wear?  Because there's no felt?

Correct. The new material imo lasts longer and is more durable 

[Sniper9 530]

30 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Correct. The new material imo lasts longer and is more durable 

I like the thickness of the traditional tongues but they obviously get packed eventually and lose its beefiness. Are the new tongues thinner or do they offer similar thickness/volume. 

[flip12 714]

2 hours ago, Leif said:

Yes, I agree, they should be compared to Bauer/CCM customs. I know four people with Bauer customs, including myself, all are perfect. But I won’t draw conclusions from a small sample. Incidentally I don’t have a dog in the race. I would have bought Trues if the shop wasn’t 250 miles away, compared to 25 miles away for the Bauer dealer who now stocks Trues! 

Totally agree. I don’t know anyone with Bauer or CCM customs, but from reading on here I’ve come across some complaints reminiscent of those against True customs.