Rivet issues with composite skates?

[VegasHockey 1283]

I have seen quite a few people complain about rivets coming loose on fully composite skates as the teeth of the rivet cannot get a solid lock on the composite. Has anyone ever considered applying a very thin piece of tpu affixed to the composite via epoxy, liquid nail or some other method to allow the rivets to get more bite? I have not had any issues myself on work that I have personally done but I have had customers bring in their skates for sharpening and when I point out their rivets are coming loose and they tell me they keep getting them fixed and this seems to just happen naturally. 

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

The issue is that the bursting point used on riveters are designed for the steel to curl, which would dig into a leather or TPR innersole. 

Now that we’ve moved on from that, perhaps that needs to be redesigned to be flat. I’ve had success using the flat point after I burst them. 

Another issue is that a lot of shops are using the wrong size steel rivet. It’s bound to get loose when they’re too big to begin with. 

[VegasHockey 1283]

10 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

The issue is that the bursting point used on riveters are designed for the steel to curl, which would dig into a leather or TPR innersole. 

Now that we’ve moved on from that, perhaps that needs to be redesigned to be flat. I’ve had success using the flat point after I burst them. 

Another issue is that a lot of shops are using the wrong size steel rivet. It’s bound to get loose when they’re too big to begin with. 

I usually clamp with flats after to give a nice smooth finish. As mentioned, I've never had any issues but I am seeing more issues as of late with one-piece composite boots becoming more prevalent and more players swapping their holders. These shops doing such work are either lazy or dont know how to properly execute. 

[Sniper9 535]

I had issues with rivets for my skates after I swapped out my step holders. It was bc the place used rivets that were too long and didn't use any coppers on the front tower. I brought it back to get fixed and they out rivets that were too short. And thye became loose after one skate. 

Right now I haven't had any issues since I've had two copper rivets placed on the rear of the front tower, and the proper length steel rivets on the remainder six in the front tower. I think with composite boots two copper in the rear and two copper in the front tower is more or less mandatory to ensure everything stays snug. Bauer skates can get away with using only one or no copper bc their insole outsoles are diff than ccm and trues full carbon boots. 

Ccm also has two coppers on the front tower from factory and so does true. 

But Nicholas is right, lots of shops aren't used to working with full carbon boots and prob don't have the proper length rivets to work with such thin outsoles. 

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

@sniper9 -

The reason why you're not seeing any issues is because of the proper length, not the amount of coppers in the front tower.  If you had 7 coppers and one steel in there, if the steel isn't pressed correctly, it's going to fall out.

CCM and Bauer's insoles are more similar than you think.  They have an innersole; Bauer's is Curv, CCM's is texallium.

True and Easton were more like what you're talking about.

Perhaps I should've expanded on my comment; two reasons as to why you may see shops using the wrong rivet; one, they're not experienced enough to feel a smaller rivet, therefore they go larger because it's easier to press, or they simply don't have the right size.

[adam14 182]

And just to play devils advocate, it doesnt help that almost every company uses varying sizes of rivets at stock

[Kgbeast 195]

Perhaps adding a washer to the steel rivets would solve this... a nylon washer maybe.

[stick9 896]

Why don't manufacturers use tnuts like Graf did? Is a cost thing or just ease of assembly? 

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

I do believe that not having something in there to dampen the vibration plays a bit in the all-composite boots.  Keep in mind that if the rivets fall in easily in the holes (which is 7/32"), there's bound to be some play there.  I wonder if dropping to a 3/16" bit and punching the rivets through before pressing would help.  You'd need a virgin boot for that though.

2 hours ago, stick9 said:

Why don't manufacturers use tnuts like Graf did? Is a cost thing or just ease of assembly? 

Graf's RMS wasn't exactly a T-nut.  It was a round anchor, but had two flat slits on the sides so that they wouldn't spin in the boot.  The holes in the boot were punched, not drilled, to make sure they fit correctly.  So, it's extremely hard to retrofit them correctly on a non-Graf boot.

Still have a ton of Graf RMS in my rivet box.  And Tuuk C+ too.  I'm such a hoarder.

[Buzz_LightBeer 973]

I replaced my Mako rivets with MLX screws and haven’t had an issue in 2 years. 

[bunnyman666 445]

I use T-nuts when attaching my cowlings to my composite (VH/True) skates. I use blue Loctite to ensure no monkey business like stuff loosening. Never have had a problem and rusty screws are easily replaced in seconds. I like the fact that I can go to the hardware store instead of going to a hockey store and having to wait sometimes days to fix something I can fix in five minutes. 

I do value what a competent skate tech can do, so please don’t take this as a disrespect, gentle skate techs. I recognise what is well above my paygrade and will not leave a mess for a skate tech to clean up due to my incompetence. Of course I may watch and learn if the repairs can be done whilst I wait! 

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

@steelnation248 stopped by today to get his tendon guard reattached.  He bought them recently and had the store replace the holder with LS Edge holders.

Noticed that the rivets were all loose, and the inner toe rivet (which is the hardest rivet to press correctly) was crooked on both skates.  Removed the liner to see that the rivets were the wrong size.

The first rivet is a rivet I pulled - 3rd from toe.  They used 8s for the skate.  But since the guy who riveted them couldn't press the inner toe rivet, he went up to a 10!  Telltale sign of inexperience.

Pulled it out, put in a 6 (last rivet in picture) and pressed it without any issues.

[bunnyman666 445]

43 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

@steelnation248 stopped by today to get his tendon guard reattached.  He bought them recently and had the store replace the holder with LS Edge holders.

Noticed that the rivets were all loose, and the inner toe rivet (which is the hardest rivet to press correctly) was crooked on both skates.  Removed the liner to see that the rivets were the wrong size.

The first rivet is a rivet I pulled - 3rd from toe.  They used 8s for the skate.  But since the guy who riveted them couldn't press the inner toe rivet, he went up to a 10!  Telltale sign of inexperience.

Pulled it out, put in a 6 (last rivet in picture) and pressed it without any issues.

So what you’re saying is next time, order a boot with the holders not attached?!? This is a True/VH skate, right? 

That is poor, just bloody poor.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

No - True didn’t install these; as I stated in the post, the store he ordered them through put them on aftermarket. 

But this is par for the course with most shops. 

[bunnyman666 445]

41 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

No - True didn’t install these; as I stated in the post, the store he ordered them through put them on aftermarket. 

But this is par for the course with most shops. 

Gah! Must’ve skimmed the post; plenty of shoppes who can’t admit that a job is above their paygrade! 

[CigarScott 132]

3 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

No - True didn’t install these; as I stated in the post, the store he ordered them through put them on aftermarket. 

But this is par for the course with most shops. 

I'm glad that the GM at the PH in Texas seemed to know what he was doing. He put my LS Edge holders on my boot-only True skates and they've been rock solid.

[steelnation248 102]

Thanks again for helping me with my skates, @JR Boucicaut. 

I'm in Metro Detroit so I made the trip to Windsor to get my True skates made. I had the skates come drilled for Tuuks but the store installed them. I had noticed some issues with the copper rivets that JR helped me out with as well. I hadn't noticed the steel rivet issues. It's pretty crazy that was done by, what I'm almost positive was, a manager at one of the largest Canadian chains.

I am lucky enough that JR is local to me and was able to help me out with the skates!

[Sniper9 535]

On 11/24/2018 at 2:16 PM, Buzz_LightBeer said:

I replaced my Mako rivets with MLX screws and haven’t had an issue in 2 years. 

How do the t nuts from the mlx stay put?

[IPv6Freely 2096]

9 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

How do the t nuts from the mlx stay put?

loctite 🙂 

[Sniper9 535]

2 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

loctite 🙂 

I meant when u seated the t nut. Doesn't it need to be anchored so you can tighten the bolt properly without it spinning?  Do you have any pics by any chance. 

[Buzz_LightBeer 973]

I have access to a riveter so i use the flat head tool and large hole support to drive the t nut into the sole (Screw is lightly started at the time), then tighten the screw. i use 2 standard rivets in each holder for alignment and stability. I use 4 screws per pillar (8 total per skate). 

[flip12 717]

1 hour ago, Sniper9 said:

I meant when u seated the t nut. Doesn't it need to be anchored so you can tighten the bolt properly without it spinning?  Do you have any pics by any chance. 

I think mine have tape inside holding the anchors in place.

[Sniper9 535]

33 minutes ago, Buzz_LightBeer said:

I have access to a riveter so i use the flat head tool and large hole support to drive the t nut into the sole (Screw is lightly started at the time), then tighten the screw. i use 2 standard rivets in each holder for alignment and stability. I use 4 screws per pillar (8 total per skate). 

Do the mlx t nuts need you to create a larger hole than what is already present from standard rivets?

[Buzz_LightBeer 973]

20 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Do the mlx t nuts need you to create a larger hole than what is already present from standard rivets?

No, they're almost the identical size, and seat very well in the existing hole the way i do it

[flip12 717]

23 hours ago, flip12 said:

I think mine have tape inside holding the anchors in place.

I just checked and on one pair the t-nuts are covered by tape and on the other they’re not covered. They have dimples on their backs so it seems they might have a bit of built in anchoring. I didn’t have a screwdriver to try and remove one to check.