Kode

[BenBreeg 493]

It is not always as clear cut as some accountant standing over your shoulder counting pennies and preventing you from innovating.  Product development lives in a world of constraints, that is what the challenge of innovation is.  The business case justifies COGS, selling price, anticipated sales volume, time to break even, and profit margins.  It is different for different industries and different companies.  It would be pretty easy if for any product you could just do whatever you want but there are usually diminishing returns as you push the envelope.  If I could sell a car that got 35 MPG for a certain price but I was positive that with another year of engineering effort I could get that to 38 MPG but it would drive the cost up 5%, would that be worth it?  Dunno, it is not black and white.

So you always have to try to understand best what the market is like, are there holes, what people are willing to pay for performance (or whatever else they value), what are your selling channels, and how to communicate that value to make sure they feel that the selling price is worth it to them.

Didn't want to get off on too much of a tangent but thought it was relevant.  Just for me, I have enough options out there that would serve my needs that I am not looking for niche sticks, and I imagine most are in the same boat (this board aside, since most hear are more plugged in gear-wise).

[bunnyman666 445]

1 hour ago, BenBreeg said:

It is not always as clear cut as some accountant standing over your shoulder counting pennies and preventing you from innovating.  Product development lives in a world of constraints, that is what the challenge of innovation is.  The business case justifies COGS, selling price, anticipated sales volume, time to break even, and profit margins.  It is different for different industries and different companies.  It would be pretty easy if for any product you could just do whatever you want but there are usually diminishing returns as you push the envelope.  If I could sell a car that got 35 MPG for a certain price but I was positive that with another year of engineering effort I could get that to 38 MPG but it would drive the cost up 5%, would that be worth it?  Dunno, it is not black and white.

So you always have to try to understand best what the market is like, are there holes, what people are willing to pay for performance (or whatever else they value), what are your selling channels, and how to communicate that value to make sure they feel that the selling price is worth it to them.

Didn't want to get off on too much of a tangent but thought it was relevant.  Just for me, I have enough options out there that would serve my needs that I am not looking for niche sticks, and I imagine most are in the same boat (this board aside, since most hear are more plugged in gear-wise).

I got what you were trying to say. Of course the worst example of accountant engineering was when CBS owned Fender, Rogers and Rhodes, in which machined pieces were replaced by poorly cast pieces, wrong electronic items were being spec’d on guitars because they were able to buy the pieces in question for pennies on the dollar. I know I speak of the music business when this is hockey we are speaking about. 

Again- I am skeptical but curious. Of course if you could make a stick that throws bombs like Shea Webber with the effort of Brett Hull, I’d buy a dozen!

[stick9 892]

Quote

Product development lives in a world of constraints, that is what the challenge of innovation is. 

I don't want to get too far off topic here. If you start out thinking you cant do this or aren't allowed to do that, well, you'll never innovate. 

Depends on the industry i guess. 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by stick9

[flip12 715]

The idea of adding nano sprinkles to the resin has been tried before, not with shabby results, on the Easton CNT Stealth. There was a lot of praise for that stick, especially for its durability, which some speculated was good enough that Easton killed it because it didn’t have the appropriate obsolescence time for its pricepoint. I wonder how this would compare. I’m not into the vanilla, strawberry, and chocolate curves Kode offers, so I doubt I’ll try it (I’m more of a butter pecan or real pistacio guy).

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, flip12 said:

The idea of adding nano sprinkles to the resin has been tried before, not with shabby results, on the Easton CNT Stealth. There was a lot of praise for that stick, especially for its durability, which some speculated was good enough that Easton killed it because it didn’t have the appropriate obsolescence time for its pricepoint. I wonder how this would compare. I’m not into the vanilla, strawberry, and chocolate curves Kode offers, so I doubt I’ll try it (I’m more of a butter pecan or real pistacio guy).

What is a nano sprinkle? It sounds delicious and something I would add to a cupcake 😉

[bunnyman666 445]

1 hour ago, Nicholas G said:

What is a nano sprinkle? It sounds delicious and something I would add to a cupcake 😉

I added graphite powder to similar effect whilst doing repairs. Whilst not quite the engineered product the nano carbon was, it could be used to similar effect. The nano sprinkles were tastier than plain graphite powder, however. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

Make me a P46 and I'd be happy to demo it!  LOL

[bunnyman666 445]

17 hours ago, flip12 said:

The idea of adding nano sprinkles to the resin has been tried before, not with shabby results, on the Easton CNT Stealth. There was a lot of praise for that stick, especially for its durability, which some speculated was good enough that Easton killed it because it didn’t have the appropriate obsolescence time for its pricepoint. I wonder how this would compare. I’m not into the vanilla, strawberry, and chocolate curves Kode offers, so I doubt I’ll try it (I’m more of a butter pecan or real pistacio guy).

Seriously- the nano particles do increase the carbon to resin ratio, which can increase the durability. At the time that I had learnt about nano particles, I was not able to get any, but using graphite powder, whilst not as engineered, gave great effect in a wet lay up (which I doubt has been used in stick construction EVER), so I can’t imagine how well ENGINEERED nano carbon helped in an applied application. It was most likely engineered into the pre-preg (as I do think sticks were ALWAYS using pre-preg from day 1), so the cost was most likely a factor, as well. But oddly enough, the nano particles of carbon fibre (which has a specific shape) and powdered graphite had similar effect as far as helping enhance the length of the fibrous chain. Obviously the nano particle was symmetrical (unlike the powder, which is ground with random shapes), and it’s consistent shape is what made it VERY expensive. 

Please pardon the geeking out; I LOOOOOOOVE the subject of composites construction! Now if my mould making skills could come back, I will be a VERY happy bunny! 

[bunnyman666 445]

10 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Make me a P46 and I'd be happy to demo it!  LOL

Unique curves would most likely make these sticks fly from the racks! 

[Leif 161]

30 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said:

Seriously- the nano particles do increase the carbon to resin ratio, which can increase the durability.

By durability do you mean resistance to breaking under a load, or the resistance to abrasion from skate blades? 

[bunnyman666 445]

5 minutes ago, Leif said:

By durability do you mean resistance to breaking under a load, or the resistance to abrasion from skate blades? 

Both, though more from the loads than anything. Though glass balloons would actually help in the means of abrasion.

Edited April 5, 2019 by bunnyman666

[Cavs019 708]

1 hour ago, bunnyman666 said:

Unique curves would most likely make these sticks fly from the racks! 

Not sure that’s the case with Base who is trying to fill that niche already. 

If they can manage to remake the CNT Stealth however you can sign me up for a 40 pack. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

Seriously- the nano particles do increase the carbon to resin ratio, which can increase the durability. At the time that I had learnt about nano particles, I was not able to get any, but using graphite powder, whilst not as engineered, gave great effect in a wet lay up (which I doubt has been used in stick construction EVER), so I can’t imagine how well ENGINEERED nano carbon helped in an applied application. It was most likely engineered into the pre-preg (as I do think sticks were ALWAYS using pre-preg from day 1), so the cost was most likely a factor, as well. But oddly enough, the nano particles of carbon fibre (which has a specific shape) and powdered graphite had similar effect as far as helping enhance the length of the fibrous chain. Obviously the nano particle was symmetrical (unlike the powder, which is ground with random shapes), and it’s consistent shape is what made it VERY expensive. 

Please pardon the geeking out; I LOOOOOOOVE the subject of composites construction! Now if my mould making skills could come back, I will be a VERY happy bunny! 

Interesting read: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359835X14002553?via%3Dihub

[bunnyman666 445]

1 hour ago, Nicholas G said:

Interesting read: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359835X14002553?via%3Dihub

Yes, that is. That would make sense why nano carbon just isn’t nearly as buzz-worthy as it was ten years back. Possibly not worth the additional cost is the jyst of the short article. 

Thanks for that.

[flip12 715]

8 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

Seriously- the nano particles do increase the carbon to resin ratio, which can increase the durability. At the time that I had learnt about nano particles, I was not able to get any, but using graphite powder, whilst not as engineered, gave great effect in a wet lay up (which I doubt has been used in stick construction EVER), so I can’t imagine how well ENGINEERED nano carbon helped in an applied application. It was most likely engineered into the pre-preg (as I do think sticks were ALWAYS using pre-preg from day 1), so the cost was most likely a factor, as well. But oddly enough, the nano particles of carbon fibre (which has a specific shape) and powdered graphite had similar effect as far as helping enhance the length of the fibrous chain. Obviously the nano particle was symmetrical (unlike the powder, which is ground with random shapes), and it’s consistent shape is what made it VERY expensive. 

Please pardon the geeking out; I LOOOOOOOVE the subject of composites construction! Now if my mould making skills could come back, I will be a VERY happy bunny! 

I wasn't doubting, just saying that nano particles were in the stick mix for a while there and then they were gone again. Not that this would be the exact same application, but that it isn't a completely foreign idea for the hockey stick market. I was also hoping you would chime in, as our resident composites guru.

@Nicholas G, I said sprinkles because that's how I remembered this graphic visualization of the added carbon nanotubes from the 2006 Easton catalog. I included the full spread for reference to the marketing of that stick which came to mind when reading about Kode's use of nano.

Edited April 5, 2019 by flip12

[mickz 107]

11 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

Seriously- the nano particles do increase the carbon to resin ratio, which can increase the durability. At the time that I had learnt about nano particles, I was not able to get any, but using graphite powder, whilst not as engineered, gave great effect in a wet lay up (which I doubt has been used in stick construction EVER), so I can’t imagine how well ENGINEERED nano carbon helped in an applied application. It was most likely engineered into the pre-preg (as I do think sticks were ALWAYS using pre-preg from day 1), so the cost was most likely a factor, as well. But oddly enough, the nano particles of carbon fibre (which has a specific shape) and powdered graphite had similar effect as far as helping enhance the length of the fibrous chain. Obviously the nano particle was symmetrical (unlike the powder, which is ground with random shapes), and it’s consistent shape is what made it VERY expensive. 

Please pardon the geeking out; I LOOOOOOOVE the subject of composites construction! Now if my mould making skills could come back, I will be a VERY happy bunny! 

Still doesn't explain why these sticks are available in the same flex, patterns and weight (420g) as your common made in China cookie cutter sticks. 

10 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

Unique curves would most likely make these sticks fly from the racks! 

Hasn't worked for companies in the past.  Harrow comes to mind.

[bunnyman666 445]

1 hour ago, mickz said:

Still doesn't explain why these sticks are available in the same flex, patterns and weight (420g) as your common made in China cookie cutter sticks. 

Hasn't worked for companies in the past.  Harrow comes to mind.

Since I am only posting as a resident composites expert and not a stick manufacturer, the only thing I can say is that there is one factory that supplies many manufacturers, which is very common in the world of high end composite sporting goods, whether it is cycling, golf, tennis or hockey. You can use a generic mold and use your own exclusive lay up. I can’t answer to what Kode is doing, nor  I am not privy to what Kode is doing. Kode could be contracting with a factory and have exclusitivity for all I know.

As far the patterns go, I offer that as a selling point because I have heard of enough companies seem to offer the most popular patterns, kick points and flexes to mimic the popular offerings of the day. Offer something different but popular and you make break through. 

 

[nutters 218]

2 hours ago, mickz said:

Still doesn't explain why these sticks are available in the same flex, patterns and weight (420g) as your common made in China cookie cutter sticks. 

Hasn't worked for companies in the past.  Harrow comes to mind.

Why make niche patterns if you are starting out? 

[mickz 107]

15 minutes ago, nutters said:

Why make niche patterns if you are starting out? 

How is your brand going to differentiate itself from the competition when everybody is selling a 100% carbon 420g stick in the same 3 patterns.  I never said you had to deviate from these curves.  Those specs just scream cookie cutter made in China.  ask the many brands that have failed with this business plan.

[nutters 218]

51 minutes ago, mickz said:

How is your brand going to differentiate itself from the competition when everybody is selling a 100% carbon 420g stick in the same 3 patterns.  I never said you had to deviate from these curves.  Those specs just scream cookie cutter made in China.  ask the many brands that have failed with this business plan.

Yes I agree that these companies should differentiate themselves unfortunately curves are not the way to go. BASE does that with a bevy of curve options which were never offered at retail. Unfortunately, how many BASE sticks do you see at local rinks? Also most people are happy with the 92/88/28 offering as established companies have realized. People who are on here and selective with patterns represent an extreme minority. As previously mentioned, offer something new and people will follow ( think VH/True skates). 

Edited April 6, 2019 by nutters

[Stewie 721]

3 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

Since I am only posting as a resident composites expert and not a stick manufacturer, the only thing I can say is that there is one factory that supplies many manufacturers, which is very common in the world of high end composite sporting goods, whether it is cycling, golf, tennis or hockey. You can use a generic mold and use your own exclusive lay up. I can’t answer to what Kode is doing, nor  I am not privy to what Kode is doing. Kode could be contracting with a factory and have exclusitivity for all I know.

As far the patterns go, I offer that as a selling point because I have heard of enough companies seem to offer the most popular patterns, kick points and flexes to mimic the popular offerings of the day. Offer something different but popular and you make break through. 

 

Other patterns used to be offered, and they weren’t flying off the shelves then, that’s why they were discontinued. As mentioned by others, if you’re trying to build a brand, you start with the curves people know and use, not that one curve 8 people used to use and still have nostalgia for

[Stewie 721]

On 4/4/2019 at 5:48 AM, JR Boucicaut said:

He is French-Canadian.  Tyler let me know who he is.  I know of him, but haven't met him.  Did work for a major manufacturer.  Tyler did too, but a different brand, so please don't shoot the messenger.

Makes full sense then. My boss is French, so resin and resine at this point are interchangeable for me. 

[mickz 107]

You guys are missing the point.  I'm not saying they should offer obscure curves.  There's already companies filling that need.  I'm saying their offerings (100% carbon, flex options, curve options) are no different than other small companies that have sourced a generic stick from Asia and put theur logo on?  How many times have we heard of savings being passed onto the consumer because the company doesn't pay for endorsements or marketing? 

The guys that want the rare curves will find a way to get them.  the others are all tire kickers who complain about not having a curve in stock but won't pull the trigger if it becomes available.  I've dealt with these customers enough times in hockey retail.

As for Base hockey sticks, I do see them quite a bit in my local rinks.  Mind you the brand originated here.  They also had the stick design experience of Kunisaki and Ghassemi (in the begininng) and the connections of Ronning.

[Stewie 721]

21 minutes ago, mickz said:

You guys are missing the point. 

I’m not missing any point. I was responding to the message I quoted. As far as your weight comment, I’ve used many a 420g carbon stick, some are great, some are shit. You differentiate yourself by being on the former end of that scale. 

[mickz 107]

9 minutes ago, Stewie said:

I’m not missing any point. I was responding to the message I quoted. As far as your weight comment, I’ve used many a 420g carbon stick, some are great, some are shit. You differentiate yourself by being on the former end of that scale. 

Was directing that comment to the others that quoted my posts.  I should've quoted those to be more clear.