Stiffness of skates

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

2 hours ago, iceman8310 said:

This has turned into an argument rather than a preference discussion.  Everyone is different.  When I do free skating I don't tie my laces, I skate to build my other muscles and balance.  if a skate truly fits you properly, you shouldn't have to lace it.  What I mean by that is the skate should be perfect.  Lacing should be an added benefit.  Just my two cents.  When I would do power skating and skating clinics when I was younger we had a European teacher.  First thing they said was take out your laces.  In russia a lot of players learn to skate without laces  You need to do what works for you and that's that.  

Not sure where you see an argument and especially quoting me about me thinking Daryl is a great guy? It just so happens I have worked with him for 3 years every summer. I don't agree with his technique but learned why and how he does it and at the end, we agreed that there is good and bad doing this way. 

Where is the argument?

Edited September 25, 2019 by oldtrainerguy28

[caveman27 208]

Interesting picture.

Crosby has newer 70K CCM skates with the old-fashioned e-pro holder. I've never noticed that until now. Most NHL players in CCMs switch to Tuuk holders. Anyone like the e-pro holder? Who knows how many of those blade holders and blades the equipment manager has to have stashed away. That's not made anymore.

Anyway, he also skips the second from the top eyelet.

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, caveman27 said:

Interesting picture.

Crosby has newer 70K CCM skates with the old-fashioned e-pro holder. I've never noticed that until now. Most NHL players in CCMs switch to Tuuk holders. Anyone like the e-pro holder? Who knows how many of those blade holders and blades the equipment manager has to have stashed away. That's not made anymore.

Anyway, he also skips the second from the top eyelet.

 

Crosby is not the only player still using that hodler, Subban is another. If you look around you will see quite a few guys preferring to use that holder over TUUK or newer CCM holders. That holder is very stiff and some of the players like that it sits a little lower to the ice vs the newer holders. Also, I have seen Crosby change his lacing a few times. Typically he drops the top eyelet but my understanding was when he switched to a newer boot he had them cut with a shorter ankle and he started to do a lace lock with the top eyelets, skipping one from the top. 

[flip12 714]

6 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Crosby is not the only player still using that hodler, Subban is another. If you look around you will see quite a few guys preferring to use that holder over TUUK or newer CCM holders. That holder is very stiff and some of the players like that it sits a little lower to the ice vs the newer holders. Also, I have seen Crosby change his lacing a few times. Typically he drops the top eyelet but my understanding was when he switched to a newer boot he had them cut with a shorter ankle and he started to do a lace lock with the top eyelets, skipping one from the top. 

Really? When did Crosby skip the top eyelet? I’ve only seen where he laces to the top, skipping the second eyelet almost always since his rookie season and lacing the second eyelet as well in juniors.

Datsyuk stuck with E Pros too.

[VegasHockey 1280]

6 hours ago, flip12 said:

Really? When did Crosby skip the top eyelet? I’ve only seen where he laces to the top, skipping the second eyelet almost always since his rookie season and lacing the second eyelet as well in juniors.

Datsyuk stuck with E Pros too.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BqggABouysirDoEX6

[flip12 714]

3 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BqggABouysirDoEX6

He’s skipping the second eyelet in all of those. If you catch him with his leg flexed you risk missing the top eyelet because his shin slides down and conceals it. This happens quite a bit because he’s quite a deep skater. If you look at the right time you can see both: skipped eyelet with top laced eyelet concealed and top eyelet visible on the other skate. Just some examples from the ‘10-‘11 Winter Classic since it’s a precisely identifiable event in your example set:

Edited September 26, 2019 by flip12

[Vet88 674]

Does his 70k skates have 10 or 11 eyelets? Retail version have 10 so if he is skipping the 10th eyelet it means he either has custom facings or it's something like the 50k facing on a 70k frame?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Vet88

[BenBreeg 493]

2 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Does his 70k skates have 10 or 11 eyelets? Retail version have 10 so if he is skipping the 10th eyelet it means he either has custom facings or it's something like the 50k facing on a 70k frame?

In that pic in caveman’s post his 70ks have 11.

[flip12 714]

8 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Does his 70k skates have 10 or 11 eyelets? Retail version have 10 so if he is skipping the 10th eyelet it means he either has custom facings or it's something like the 50k facing on a 70k frame?

It looks like Crosby’s got the traditional more L-shaped < 70K cut compared to the C-shaped 70K cut. The eyelets over his instep are almost punched in the jewel. That and slightly less spacing between the eyelets seem to make way for the extra eyelet on his pair. They don’t look to be especially low cut at the top.

Good eye @BenBreeg, the shot of Sid in @SkateWorksPNW‘s link show only 10 eyelets, where the 10th is skipped and the 11th is presumably hidden by the bottom of Sid’s shins.

Edited September 27, 2019 by flip12

[Above40 7]

I'm skating now almost a year back into it after 25 away. To summarize my experience with the new stiff skate boot offerings...

From 9060's to Super Tacks and a few in between, They all felt hard as a rock.  ( Im 200lbs, not hockey agility fit but relatively fit)

I think the major problem for me with an ultra stiff boot was the heat molding and break in, wanting the boots to feel like part of my feet rather than an obstacle to overcome. Even after bakes and punches they always felt a bit "tippy" for me when going inside to outside or neutral to an edge. Abruptness/ un-smooth transitions across the edges because my ankles apparently aren't strong enough yet. Basically/probably relying on the boot for most of the support. I think this could have been avoided by starting with a flexible boot that I could lace up nice and snug where I feel supported but that still move "with" me, rather than an imperfect shell around my foot. Something with more natural/gradual deflection/bending that feels like more of an extension of what I'm trying to do out there. Perhaps a NS/NSX rec-level skate?

I'm not clanking around inside of my 9070's but there is that brief moment when doing certain things where I know the skate is gonna "tip" that tiny bit where it doesn't feel like part of my foot and I'm not in control at that time. Figure 8 kind of edge drills etc. I just started practicing 1 ft slaloms and they are truly frightening but doable. Things have gotten much better but it seems like I'm still not in sync w my skates.

 

 

[Leif 161]

On 9/23/2019 at 7:51 AM, Vet88 said:

Try this - lace up and go for a skate and concentrate on what your feet are telling you. My bet is it is bugger all, you aren't getting any feedback from the blade and the way it is working under your foot. Now go for a skate with your laces undone, every little twist, edge, catch in the ice is felt. We are genetically designed to do anything as energy efficient as we possibly can BUT... the brain has to know what is going on so it can work out how to be energy efficient. Laced up and you are still skating so the brain thinks this is ok, the only thing it's got to compare with is how you walk and run, it knows no different. Unlaced and now your muscles are having to work to not only control your balance over the blade but also how you put power INTO the blade - this part is really important. Maximum transfer of energy without the crutch of the boot. Your foot can't fold, you will feel it immediately. Your alignment straightens up, it has to as your brain demands it because it now knows what it is costing you to skate unbalanced over the blade.

I skate every day, 1 - 2 hours a day (and always with no laces) so it's hard for me to give a figure for someone who skates once or twice a week. But skaters I have coached show literally immediate results during a single lesson. Yes, you are skating slow but the way you start balancing over the blade is immediately noticeable. That wobble is important, your brain is now working out how to use your muscles in the most efficient manner to control the edge. Every time you skate you are improving. Video yourself, especially from front or behind so you can see how your blade starts to straighten up under your foot. For those who are fortunate to have skating dna then this will be just a tune up but for the other 95% of the population out there (that is the number who pronate / supinate / have alignment issues) then this becomes a revelation. there is always something in the way you skate that needs improving and skating with laces undone brutally exposes it. For me one of the key things about this is it isn't dependent on the skate you are in, a coach who is training you or even how long you have skated. It's all about you, your body alignment and how well you can control the skate blade. Teach yourself with built in auto correction (your brain). 

Since you wrote the above I have had weekly lessons with a figure skating coach and I now have good edge control. Regarding your first statement, I get a lot of feedback from my skates, I can feel the edges very clearly, and for example I know if my forwards/backwards crossovers are wrong because the edges feel wrong. I adjust my technique until the edges feel right. Similarly, if I’m doing a forwards power pull, it’s all about the edge, to minimise the friction and ride the edge. People at public skating tell me that my ankles move about a lot in the skates, I’ve had people ask if my skates are special because of this. I wear Bauer 2S Pro custom skates, and they don’t restrict my ankles at all despite having a stiff shell. Years of basic drills have corrected my (bad) posture, and improved the basic stride and technique, to gain good edge control.

After three years of teaching myself, my skating was awful, bad posture, bad technique. I doubt it would have improved much after another three years, I would probably have continued fighting against awful technique and made small gains, limited by the fact that the basics were dreadful. I practiced regularly but all that did was reinforce bad practices. I don’t know if skating with laces undone would have helped someone so utterly inept as me. 

As an aside, I’ve met quite a few adults who from the first session were learning phenomenally fast eg doing crossovers and spread eagle (mohawk) on the second session. They learnt at least ten times faster than most of us. In every single case the person was an athlete: a professional dancer, a tennis coach, a skier, a boxer, a black belt in a martial art etc. My belief is that thanks to regular exercise they have strength and flexibility, and thanks to years of training in their chosen discipline they have learnt how to control their body, and they have learnt how to learn new tricks. I assume that is a stage we all pass through when first learning to do a physical discipline. 

[BenBreeg 493]

Yes, you can build a "vocabulary of athleticism" (I just made that up) and some or a lot of that can be transferrable.  A buddy of mine who played D1 and skates around here with invite-only type stuff said that there are a few ex-Steelers that picked up hockey late that they play with and he said even as adults they picked it up really fast.  Said their skill isn't the same as the other guys but they are good enough to keep up.  In addition he said they just have innate awareness of where to be, can keep the puck moving, etc.  All the things that aren't flat showy skill that allows them to play with better people.

[flip12 714]

I suspect there's a significant genetic component as well, in regards to both gameflow facilitated by dynamic spatial cognition and the physical coordination required to learn and perform a movements.

[All Flash 49]

Great discussion...... want to try this for training. On a side note, when i was a teenager playing rep i got a puck in the ankle and stupidly untied my skate in between periods. Ended up having to play the last period with one skate untied. And as funny as it may seem,  i remember playing quite well.  But, who knows, lol. Memory is funny like that.

[flip12 714]

1 hour ago, pgeorgan said:

Tried skating with laces undone at Sticks and Pucks. Only did it for a few minutes.

Interesting results. It was useful for activating skating muscle memory, ie as a good warmup tool.

I felt that my natural skating level was a good predictor of my ability to skate (or not skate in some cases) with laces undone. 

With that being said, it didn't feel like it was a panacea of any kind, but for sure another good tool in the toolbox for training. 

It's probably more useful now than in the past, given the stiffness of skates. Personally, I did not learn the game with very stiff skates. In fact, I think my favorite pair of skates were 2 sizes two big, and actually they were rollerblades...

I find this discussion to be analogous of the modern goalie: I wouldn't begrudge one for not learning to play in the pre-butterfly era. They did what they could with the equipment they had, from Sawchuk to Vasilevskiy. And wouldn't you know it, back then, goalies wore their pads very tight. Now, they are very loose! 

Are you counting Vasilevskiy in the learned-pre-butterfly group?

Edited April 25, 2022 by flip12

[BenBreeg 493]

7 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

It's probably more useful now than in the past, given the stiffness of skates. 

Maybe, but I was first made aware of it almost 40 years ago (that was hard to type...) and I remember it being presented as, "the Russians have been skating with no laces for years" so it wasn't tied closely to the skate stiffness (see what I did there...) and isn't new.

[puckpilot 312]

21 hours ago, All Flash said:

Great discussion...... want to try this for training. On a side note, when i was a teenager playing rep i got a puck in the ankle and stupidly untied my skate in between periods. Ended up having to play the last period with one skate untied. And as funny as it may seem,  i remember playing quite well.  But, who knows, lol. Memory is funny like that.

I'm a huge fan of doing training with laces undone. I slowly worked my way up to it over the years until I could do the full monty so to speak, just before covid hit. And as I think back, I so wish I did this sooner when I was still on the upswing of life instead of the down. 😛  The difference in feel for my edges was so much better. I'm almost... ahem 50.... and I didn't expect to be getting much better than I was/am, but as soon as I started to train without laces, I found I started to make quick progress on skills that I'd stalled out on. My feel and control of my edges pre and post this isn't quite night and day, but I'd say pretty close, especially for my outside edges. It's hard to break bad habits, but I can tell immediately now if I took a good stride or a bad one and/or if I was well balanced on my skate or not when I did something. And because of that I can make the mental adjustment on the fly so to speak so I'm executing better.

On a similar side note, last Friday I was in a game that got a bit spicy. I didn't know it at the time, but someone on the other team slashed my skate breaking a couple of clips on my right skate. I use skate straps, so breaking those clips pretty much mean I was skating with a "loose" right skate. I didn't even notice. I probably skated most of the game like that. After the game, my captain was telling me how well I was skating, just chasing players down on the back check and nullifying them.

[Leif 161]

15 hours ago, puckpilot said:

I'm a huge fan of doing training with laces undone. I slowly worked my way up to it over the years until I could do the full monty so to speak, just before covid hit. And as I think back, I so wish I did this sooner when I was still on the upswing of life instead of the down. 😛  The difference in feel for my edges was so much better. I'm almost... ahem 50.... and I didn't expect to be getting much better than I was/am, but as soon as I started to train without laces, I found I started to make quick progress on skills that I'd stalled out on. My feel and control of my edges pre and post this isn't quite night and day, but I'd say pretty close, especially for my outside edges. It's hard to break bad habits, but I can tell immediately now if I took a good stride or a bad one and/or if I was well balanced on my skate or not when I did something. And because of that I can make the mental adjustment on the fly so to speak so I'm executing better.

This sounds like it taught you to feel your edges, in the same way that conventional skating drills do. Perhaps it creates better edge control. 

[puckpilot 312]

6 hours ago, Leif said:

This sounds like it taught you to feel your edges, in the same way that conventional skating drills do. Perhaps it creates better edge control. 

I don't think it taught me to feel my edges. It's more like it allows me to feel my edges better. I think it's a subtle difference. I notice now if I tighten my skates a little too much, I lose some of that feel.