building ankle strength

[colins 246]

 

Thousands of coaches have spent their entire lives teaching skating without understanding what really differentiates good skating form from poor skating form.

You can see a lot of folks are very passionate about the subject, but the amount of alignment in their beliefs is all over the map.

Be wary of the anyone that thinks they have it all figured out. Anyone that claims that most certainly knows far less than they realize.

Hell, NHL teams even in recent years have had power skating coaches like Laura Stamm teaching players to swing their arms front to back instead of side to side. Mike Bracko has disproved this and taught the side to side arm swing.

Anyone talking about knee bend really means hip hinge. If you try to bend your knees without developing the ability to comfortably hinge your hip, you're going to have a bad time.

But look at McDavid, the undisputed skating king of the NHL. No one puts fear into opposing D like McDavid. Does it look like he has a deep hip hinge / knee bend and long stride like Taylor Hall? No, not at all. 

Does he blow past players like they are standing still? Yes. So what's his magic?

It's certainly in his linear crossovers and the power he's generating below the knee. His strength to mass ratio and the power he generates on his cross overs puts him in another league altogether. It'll be decades before most traditional power skating coaches catch up to teaching the technique McDavid is using vs. the old school Laura Stamm train of thought. I don't mean to pick on Laura, but her videos are on youtube and show what most traditional 'power skating' coaches have believed for years.

I can't comment on ankle strength but ankle mobility is 100% important. People make fun of 'ankle benders', but elite skaters can (in a controllable way) pronate their ankles to achieve more power in their stride.

Look up Jason Yee's videos on McDavid's and MacKinnon's stride analysis and watch what their feet and ankles are doing as they accelerate.

Also look up Cal Dietz's work on ankle mobility and strength training, he's got videos on youtube.

This is a very deep topic. Anyone who claims to know it all is surely wrong. If they were right, they'd have produced piles of players that skate like McDavid. But that hasn't happened.

Players can become better skaters. But I'd argue most of what they need to do to get there starts off ice with mobility and speed work.

 

 

[caveman27 208]

50 minutes ago, colins said:

But look at McDavid, the undisputed skating king of the NHL. No one puts fear into opposing D like McDavid. Does it look like he has a deep hip hinge / knee bend and long stride like Taylor Hall? No, not at all. 

Does he blow past players like they are standing still? Yes. So what's his magic?

Ankle strength? 

[salibandy 21]

@YesLanges no, I really don't think I have it mixed up. I agree mostly with what you're saying, yet you seem fixated on a notion that I am talking about maximal strength or force exertion, whereas I have prefaced that the definition of strength is a function of motor control, recruitment and activation. I'll bow out of the discussion now because I don't think my definition will fit with your view, which is fine, but it really isn't going anywhere useful for the OP or anyone who is reading this and wants to improve. Great discussion though!

@colins 100% agreed, many differing beliefs which has led to many differing skating styles. I never understood the front-to-back swing that Laura Stamm (and many coaches) taught either because it never made sense from a biomechanical point of view. While front-to-back pumping of the arms made sense for runners whose feet moved in the sagittal plane, skaters' feet moved more in the frontal plane, so the arms should as well. I also don't teach the toe flick that Hall or Eichel does, simply because having a toe flick really extends the cycle of a stride and in the game today, the quick feet and resulting agility seem to be more important. Toe flickers also tend to kick more posteriorly as well, while I teach a more lateral stride (beyond the initial acceleration).

The notion of pronation in skating allowing a more powerful stride is correct in my understanding and experience. Coming from a speedskating background, it always made sense because it allows one to dig in better and to push more laterally as well. The increase in mobility as allowed by the loosening of the skating boot (or lowering of the boot cut) also allows skaters to manipulate their edges for increased control. The lowered boot cut was the basis of the Mako skate, if I recall, because more Cruikshank and Van Horne were speedskaters.

Jason Yee's videos have great information but are too complicated for the regular skater to figure out I think, which fails to be helpful unfortunately. 

[colins 246]

12 minutes ago, salibandy said:

@YesLanges no, I really don't think I have it mixed up. I agree mostly with what you're saying, yet you seem fixated on a notion that I am talking about maximal strength or force exertion, whereas I have prefaced that the definition of strength is a function of motor control, recruitment and activation. I'll bow out of the discussion now because I don't think my definition will fit with your view, which is fine, but it really isn't going anywhere useful for the OP or anyone who is reading this and wants to improve. Great discussion though!

@colins 100% agreed, many differing beliefs which has led to many differing skating styles. I never understood the front-to-back swing that Laura Stamm (and many coaches) taught either because it never made sense from a biomechanical point of view. While front-to-back pumping of the arms made sense for runners whose feet moved in the sagittal plane, skaters' feet moved more in the frontal plane, so the arms should as well. I also don't teach the toe flick that Hall or Eichel does, simply because having a toe flick really extends the cycle of a stride and in the game today, the quick feet and resulting agility seem to be more important. Toe flickers also tend to kick more posteriorly as well, while I teach a more lateral stride (beyond the initial acceleration).

The notion of pronation in skating allowing a more powerful stride is correct in my understanding and experience. Coming from a speedskating background, it always made sense because it allows one to dig in better and to push more laterally as well. The increase in mobility as allowed by the loosening of the skating boot (or lowering of the boot cut) also allows skaters to manipulate their edges for increased control. The lowered boot cut was the basis of the Mako skate, if I recall, because more Cruikshank and Van Horne were speedskaters.

Jason Yee's videos have great information but are too complicated for the regular skater to figure out I think, which fails to be helpful unfortunately. 

 

I agree. I like what Jason is doing as a young enthusiastic guy in this area, and I think if he keeps at it he'll refine his work into something a bit easier to digest. But I reference him mostly for his video, mostly because he pulls out and shows in slow motion the sequences that allow me to see and understand a bit better the mechanics being used by the best like McDavid, MacKinnon and Barzal.

It can be learned later in life too I think, look at that recent goal by Leon Draisaitl vs. the Jets. He circles the net with some traditional crossovers to build speed, then does some linear crossovers to blow past Lowry and create separation to receive a pass and score on a nice finish. Just 2 season ago we didn't see this type of speed from Draisaitl, in fact at times he looked a bit slow and was accused of being lazy. Moreso probably because a lot of the big bodied guys have that slower looking type of mechanics in their skating. But there's no denying the effectiveness of this technique being applied in this case:

https://twitter.com/TopherScott_/status/1362374406261985283?s=20

Edited February 23, 2021 by colins

[salibandy 21]

Most definitely - I think lateral crossovers should be added to a skater's repertoire, I certainly think it's a useful skill. Drais does skate like a prototypical skater from days gone past, and his hands stickhandle a lot less, so I get why people say he looks slow. Realistically though, put anyone beside McJesus on the same line and they'd look slow too haha.

On a side note, glad we went 9-2-0 recently after a bit of a slow start. That last performance from 97 was unreal...

[YesLanges 127]

36 minutes ago, salibandy said:

I never understood the front-to-back swing that Laura Stamm (and many coaches) taught either because it never made sense from a biomechanical point of view. While front-to-back pumping of the arms made sense for runners whose feet moved in the sagittal plane, skaters' feet moved more in the frontal plane, so the arms should as well.

This I agree with 100%. It should be obvious that the arms should swing away from the body at roughly the same angle as the feet push in relation to the body and that hockey players don't stride straight back. Even the instructors who teach that front-to-back arm-swing shit at $100 per hour every morning don't really do it themselves except when they demonstrate it. As soon as they're actually skating in their own men's-league games, they move their arms just like everybody else. 

Dr. Mike Bracho's Institute for Hockey Research: Test of Arm Swing Angles

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by YesLanges

[boo10 323]

Very interesting conversation, but I disagree with the "linear crossover for speed" stuff that I've been reading all over the place.  Players like McDavid and MacKinnon do not crossover to build maximum speed, they do it to change attack angles and create space.  Go watch either one of them in a fastest skater competition and see how many times they crossover on the straightaway, (hint, the answer is zero).  If they were using those crossovers intentionally to create speed, wouldn't it make sense that they would do it when they are trying to go as fast as they possibly can in a race?

[colins 246]

1 hour ago, boo10 said:

Very interesting conversation, but I disagree with the "linear crossover for speed" stuff that I've been reading all over the place.  Players like McDavid and MacKinnon do not crossover to build maximum speed, they do it to change attack angles and create space.  Go watch either one of them in a fastest skater competition and see how many times they crossover on the straightaway, (hint, the answer is zero).  If they were using those crossovers intentionally to create speed, wouldn't it make sense that they would do it when they are trying to go as fast as they possibly can in a race?

But now you're talking speed skating vs. hockey.

If we're talking skating for hockey, the answer is clear - McDavid's linear crossovers vs. Taylor Hall's deep squat / stride length - one is much more effective in the game of hockey than the other.

Effective speed is all that matters. Hockey is not a NHL all-star weekend skills / fastest skater competition.

[caveman27 208]

1 hour ago, boo10 said:

Very interesting conversation, but I disagree with the "linear crossover for speed" stuff that I've been reading all over the place.  Players like McDavid and MacKinnon do not crossover to build maximum speed, they do it to change attack angles and create space.  Go watch either one of them in a fastest skater competition and see how many times they crossover on the straightaway, (hint, the answer is zero).  If they were using those crossovers intentionally to create speed, wouldn't it make sense that they would do it when they are trying to go as fast as they possibly can in a race?

Crossovers are a way to build speed. Not necessarily to max speed, but to get acceleration in a short amount of distance.

There's a video of his end-to-end goal against Toronto. If you haven't seen it, here it is. He's getting a lot of acceleration doing crossovers between the right end of the center circle to the offensive blue line, once he crosses the blue line, he's not taking anymore strides.

 

 

Of course, if he can do regular strides to get to max speed, then that's what he'll do. In this end-to-end goal, he's not doing any crossovers in his breakout, but getting all his acceleration from forward strides. He's going even faster in this breakaway. 

 

 

 

[YesLanges 127]

3 hours ago, colins said:

 

I can't comment on ankle strength but ankle mobility is 100% important. People make fun of 'ankle benders', but elite skaters can (in a controllable way) pronate their ankles to achieve more power in their stride.

This is neither a mystery nor a contradiction. Accomplished skaters transfer weight back and forth on their edges (and pronate their ankles to their advantage) under full neuromuscular control; novice skaters who lack that neuromuscular control transfer their weight from edge to edge (and pronate their ankles to their disadvantage ) without meaning to and out of their control. The difference isn't whether or not skaters ever pronate their ankles or to what degree; what makes all the difference in the world is whether they're doing it purposely and under control or having it happen to them outside of their control. Generally, the better the skater, the more extreme angles of pronation they can achieve, which is why the best skaters are usually the ones who learned to skate with the loosest possible ankle lock.

3 hours ago, colins said:

 

Hell, NHL teams even in recent years have had power skating coaches like Laura Stamm teaching players to swing their arms front to back instead of side to side. Mike Bracko has disproved this and taught the side to side arm swing.

Exactly. I posted that video.

[flip12 714]

I found this comment from Dr. Bracko in the linked video:

"Hi Nathan, thanks very much for your interest in my video.  I understand you to say you that you think someone who has full extension of the hip and flexion-extension of the shoulders/arms is a faster skater.  If you consider that we've know since 1975 that faster skaters have wider strides (hip abduction, not hip extension), they don't fully extend their knees during full speed skating, and that they have to abduct-adduct their shoulders/arms (Newton's 2nd law of physics). . .  then it's easy to understand how fast players skate.  Mike Bracko"

I'm new to Bracko's work. What do people here think of this?

[caveman27 208]

4 hours ago, flip12 said:

I found this comment from Dr. Bracko in the linked video:

"Hi Nathan, thanks very much for your interest in my video.  I understand you to say you that you think someone who has full extension of the hip and flexion-extension of the shoulders/arms is a faster skater.  If you consider that we've know since 1975 that faster skaters have wider strides (hip abduction, not hip extension), they don't fully extend their knees during full speed skating, and that they have to abduct-adduct their shoulders/arms (Newton's 2nd law of physics). . .  then it's easy to understand how fast players skate.  Mike Bracko"

I'm new to Bracko's work. What do people here think of this?

I'm going to say things have changed a bit since 1975 as it pertains to skate blade profiles. There's still all-out maximum speed going north-south where your hips and knees are deeply bent, you engage your arms to swing, and your stride starts slowing down as you glide more. Guys who do more north-south skating are happier with a larger radius. Fast north-south skaters aren't always fast east-west skaters, where a player's style is to get around in a zone as fast as possible in short distances. Here, these skaters want a short radius, or at least shorter than average. They make deep c-cuts to get their acceleration whether going backwards or forwards, and they want to be able to turn hard and deep. You can't do things with a 15' radius that you can with a 9' radius and vice versa. With that said, I think Connor McDavid's special sauce is his skate blade profile.

[stick9 890]

On 2/23/2021 at 7:03 PM, caveman27 said:

With that said, I think Connor McDavid's special sauce is his skate blade profile.

Cant tell if that was tongue and check or not. If not, I am pretty confident every single player in the NHL would be using that "special" profile.

 

[caveman27 208]

39 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Cant tell if that was tongue and check or not. If not, I am pretty confident every single player in the NHL would be using that "special" profile.

For his height, weight, skate size and style of skating, the profile that works for him might not necessarily work for everyone else. I'd be interested in knowing what he uses, along with other fast skaters in the league. 

[colins 246]

On 2/23/2021 at 8:33 PM, caveman27 said:

I'm going to say things have changed a bit since 1975 as it pertains to skate blade profiles. There's still all-out maximum speed going north-south where your hips and knees are deeply bent, you engage your arms to swing, and your stride starts slowing down as you glide more. Guys who do more north-south skating are happier with a larger radius. Fast north-south skaters aren't always fast east-west skaters, where a player's style is to get around in a zone as fast as possible in short distances. Here, these skaters want a short radius, or at least shorter than average. They make deep c-cuts to get their acceleration whether going backwards or forwards, and they want to be able to turn hard and deep. You can't do things with a 15' radius that you can with a 9' radius and vice versa. With that said, I think Connor McDavid's special sauce is his skate blade profile.

 

I think the key is that in the NHL today, at 5 on 5, there's very limited opportunity to care about straight line speed.

Maybe 15-20 years ago it mattered a bit more. Today's player needs speed through the many obstacles that stands between him as the puck carrier and the goal. Everyone can skate now. You can't just go wide with speed down the boards anymore.

That's why linear crossovers are where the game is going. It's not because they are faster in a straight line, it's because they are faster in the non-straight lines an NHL forward has to take to find open ice and maintain momentum.

[Vet88 674]

On 2/26/2021 at 4:12 PM, colins said:

That's why linear crossovers are where the game is going. It's not because they are faster in a straight line, it's because they are faster in the non-straight lines an NHL forward has to take to find open ice and maintain momentum.

+1 for the above. I have been studying a lot of old clips of elite players like Bure, Coffe, Lemieux, Orr etc etc and none of then did lateral cross overs. They would beat a player with a step or shimmy and then with their speed they would "glide" around them. Today it's all about generating speed every single time your blade hits the ice. The technology in boots today is one of the big factors that enables this to happen.

ps - a great example of this is the empty netter McDavid scored against the Canucks last night. As he approaches the D he does a lateral crossover to the right to sell the fake on the D who bites hard, then a drive off the right foot and 2 immediate lateral crossovers on his left edges to get HUGE separation (from the D if the D didn't bite) and then an instant transition onto his right edges for a couple more lateral crossovers to drive around the D (who by this stage isn't even in the frame lol, McDavid just does them because that is part of the move). And this where, imho, McDavid is rewriting the play book atm. Even if the D didn't bite, this move is next to impossible to defend against, the speed he approaches at, the separation he obtains with the move and then the way he accelerates! around you. I don't care how good you are as a D, when he pulls this on you you are screwed.

https://www.nhl.com/video/mcdavid-scores-empty-net-goal/t-277350912/c-7637131

Edited February 27, 2021 by Vet88

[Vet88 674]

McJesus doing his stuff again, those 2 lateral crossovers as he enters the zone are what do the damage, now he has more speed than any of the 4 players in front of him and he just blows past them. Yes, he has great hands and great balance and all those other attributes but the ability to go from slow to fast in just a couple of steps is what elevates him beyond any other player atm.

 

[BenBreeg 493]

3 hours ago, Vet88 said:

McJesus doing his stuff again, those 2 lateral crossovers as he enters the zone are what do the damage, now he has more speed than any of the 4 players in front of him and he just blows past them. Yes, he has great hands and great balance and all those other attributes but the ability to go from slow to fast in just a couple of steps is what elevates him beyond any other player atm.

 

So after all this discussion, I need a refresher on the definition of a lateral crossover.  What I see him doing is skating parallel to the blue line, making a 90 degree right turn with two crossovers (which to me is just a traditional crossover) and then once he is facing the goal never crosses his feet again.  My impression of a lateral crossover was it was generally applied without the primary purpose of changing direction (although it will create some lateral displacement).  What am I missing here?

[flip12 714]

Incredible goal, jaw dropping, even knowing what McD has shown he is capable of before. Still, to me, it looks like the Rangers' defenders are mostly stunned by the audacity of his 1-on-4 attack and are lulled to sleep by the sheer odds being in their favor. Combined they take just a handful of strides during the sequence, and Trouba even gets his stick on the puck, McDavid just overpowers him and takes it back. He was far hungrier and his speed certainly helped, but speed's not the whole story. Carl Hagelin is also very fast, but he would never score this goal. I also agree with @BenBreeg that these crossovers are what changes his direction. He accelerates while doing them, yes, but he's not zigzagging in a roughly straight-line across the rink.

[MarshaHarrison 0]

Walking on your heels is one of the best workouts for strengthening your ankles. Do this once a week to maintain strong, healthy ankles. You need to find a level place to stroll and spend 30 seconds on your heels in order to accomplish this. After that, take a 30-second toe walk. Take a few steps forward and off the ground with your heels. As you become used to the workout, gradually increase the duration.

Edited January 31 by MarshaHarrison

[caseyjones 26]

I went to an open skate recently and dropped the top 3 eyelets (which is close to 4 eyelets on the Machs) and all the stabilizing muscles in my lower limbs were feeling it.  You’ll quickly notice if one leg is stronger than the other because that one will likely be on fire at one point.  I felt good afterwards and plan to keep on doing this as a skating aid.  

[BenBreeg 493]

20 hours ago, caseyjones said:

I went to an open skate recently and dropped the top 3 eyelets (which is close to 4 eyelets on the Machs) and all the stabilizing muscles in my lower limbs were feeling it.  You’ll quickly notice if one leg is stronger than the other because that one will likely be on fire at one point.  I felt good afterwards and plan to keep on doing this as a skating aid.  

This.  In about 30 seconds it will expose any kind of misalignment in your skating posture that might have been covered up by the stiffness of the skate.  The great thing is, it essentially forces you to fix it very quickly otherwise you can’t even skate.  The it is up to you to build that new alignment into something consistent.

i just went completely untied, never even bothered dropping laces gradually.