Stoopid Release Cycles

[Jbear 113]

This started out as my (probably whiney sounding) vent, but I gotta say, there have been some salient points made and I'm learning quite a bit.  That...is kool😎

[VegasHockey 1280]

23 minutes ago, noupf said:

To my understanding, ( I used to work for a sporting goods company that sold entry level and the lower end models of hockey equipment ), the percentage of left vs right is now like 60/40 with left being the more dominant stick usage now.  Curious what PBH sees though.

3:2  - right:left

[noupf 42]

1 minute ago, PBH said:

3:2  - right:left

weird lol

[VegasHockey 1280]

31 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

How do you guesstimate the demand for left hand sticks versus right hand sticks of the same model? Or is that a secret you keep?

I've noticed the larger the store, there's almost an equal number of left and right hand sticks. And the smaller the store, there are more right hand sticks than left hand sticks. And with goalie sticks, I see way more left sticks than right sticks almost all of the time as there are more right-handed people.

Using data.

1/1 - Current : Right: 814 sales

1/1 - Current : Left: 425 sales

Keep in mind, every area is different though. In WA it was 3:2, In NV its been closer to 2:1

Edited August 19, 2022 by PBH

[stick9 890]

1 hour ago, PBH said:

Thats wild. I have about 2600 sticks in stock right now! Those must be smaller stores?

Nope, pretty large stores, PH and IW. Just a wild guess but I'd say the market in Massachusetts is different than Nevada. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by stick9

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Nope, pretty large stores, PH and IW. Just a wild guess but I'd say the market in Massachusetts is different than Nevada. 

Considerably different. 

[Stewie 721]

2 hours ago, stick9 said:

Yup yup. 67 flex intermediate sticks were way too flexy and never felt right. 75 flex seniors stick felt way too stiff after cutting. Being able to get a senior in a 70 flex was perfect. Switching to the proper flex and a pattern that better suited my playing style and ability was one of the better things I have done. 

I would say, certain parts of the US. The stick market in the north east is brutal right now. Right now, I couldn't walk into a shop and buy a stick. I tried online and there is nothing available in my specs. Luckily I picked up a second FT3 when they went on clearance. 

In all honesty, a two year lifecycle is a little short....three seems about right to me. If you can plan it right you can release a new twig every year, 

Yeah I’m seeing the same thing here in Detroit area, hard to find any clearance sticks in any reasonable quantities. Peranis doesn’t even have their yearly big sale event in a rink anymore, partially due to Covid I’m sure, but they also just don’t seem to have as much stuff to clear whenever I go in there. Having hundreds of sticks to clear out seems like maybe too many were ordered for the market, but I’d love to be there for that kind of inventory!!!
 

another thing people aren’t putting into the equation is the impact that raw material shortages have had. I think several manufacturers probably had much shorter production runs than they originally intended, and by the time Raws are received for the next batch, probably some R and D work to capitalize for the next set. 
 

all in all, I’m sure the big companies would love to just keep the manufacturing lines and processes the same for years, and not have to pay for new RD and marketing plans for each new release, but it’s the Consumer that drives sales and it’s the consumers that have created the problem. The vast majority of consumers are always wanting the newest cutting edge products, if you say “we’re going to sell you the same stick for the next 5 years” you’re not going to sell many sticks, plain and simple. Trust me I would also love if the EK15 never went away, CCM still had the original RBZ gear line out, and the Reebok 11k/7k helmet was still available, but that’s just not how the world around me works, so I’ve had to adjust

[psulion22 402]

5 hours ago, Cavs019 said:

The issue is that it’s really hard in any industry to conjure up significant innovation on a yearly release cycle (it’s really more like 10 months when you factor in holidays, shipping lead time, et al). Most of the improvements are incremental to non existent at best and of course there are the anecdotes of NHL players like P. Kane using a 13 year old O33 Total One build muddying the waters further. That said - I do like what Bauer is doing in releasing stuff like the Sling, ADVs, etc in parallel to their standard lines, or the ODIN project from a few years back (as cheesy as some of those releases and concepts might be). The “think big” type work that looks 3-5-7 years out in conjunction with the annual releases to please the masses (and slowly integrating some of that future tech into the main lines) seems to be a logical approach to me. 

All that said - the biggest improvement in stick tech by far in the last few years has been the recoil on lower flex sticks (in my case a senior 70). They used to just lag and fold on me like a pool noodle up until around the Trigger 2 vintage when shooting or battling for loose pucks - but now they recoil and kick like a performance hunting bow which has led to real improvements in quick release power and velocity.  @stick9 @psulion22 have had similar experiences and maybe want to chime in. 

While Bauer gets bashed a lot for their kind of out there periodic offerings, I agree with you.  They are usually high innovation products that see some of the tech trickle into general consumer lines eventually.  The OD1N project put a ton of tech into current gear, mostly related to the use of Curv materials.  You can say what you want about the blade of the Nexus ADV, but it really did what it advertised.  Companies tried for years to create better puck feel in composite blades (True started with a urethane core in their blades).  The Nexus ADV delivered on that and increased performance, if you could just get over the hole.  The 5 sided shaft they're using now feels pretty good, and better than a regular 4 sided.  And I hope most of you never see the Konekt goalie skates because I think half of your heads will expolde.  But most reviews I've seen on those say they're an absolute game changing tech in terms of both fit/comfort and performance.  Maybe Bauer will find a way to trickle that tech down into lower lines or player skates.  The integrated knee block of the Ultrasonic line forward did the same thing.  Every so often they release these kinds of products, and sometimes their overuse of tech or innovation creates an inferior or problematic product, like the Hyperlite protective line.  At least they only update lines every two years.  CCM is a bit much with the yearly stick refreshes, with little change from one to the next.

I agree 100% on that last comment.  The introduction of 70 flex senior sticks that actually perform has been a massive improvement for us smaller players.  I actually can get a stick that performs well after being cut.  I used to have to choose between an Intermediate that was a noodle or a 77 that was rebar, with a few exceptions like the Nexus 1000.  I feel like the pop, performance, and efficiency of energy transfer in player sticks has drmatically improved over the last few years, agrred just around the Trigger 3.  I can really shoot the puck now and this is absolutely attributable to the 70 flex stick.  I do wonder if the yearly refresh cycle waters that down.  It's like having a puppy.  When you see it every day, you don't realize how big it's getting.  But somone who only sees it occaisonally will be surprised and see a bigg difference each time.  On the flip side the two year refresh cycle can cause the opposite reaction where the changes seem too drastic and can cause negative feedback, vs gradually adding making them.

Edited August 19, 2022 by psulion22

[psulion22 402]

1 hour ago, Stewie said:

all in all, I’m sure the big companies would love to just keep the manufacturing lines and processes the same for years, and not have to pay for new RD and marketing plans for each new release, but it’s the Consumer that drives sales and it’s the consumers that have created the problem. The vast majority of consumers are always wanting the newest cutting edge products, if you say “we’re going to sell you the same stick for the next 5 years” you’re not going to sell many sticks, plain and simple. Trust me I would also love if the EK15 never went away, CCM still had the original RBZ gear line out, and the Reebok 11k/7k helmet was still available, but that’s just not how the world around me works, so I’ve had to adjust

I'd do bad things for an 11K or first generation Fitlite helmet right now.

[Stewie 721]

4 hours ago, psulion22 said:

I'd do bad things for an 11K or first generation Fitlite helmet right now.

i keep seeing new 11ks pop up on SLS but always in small =(

[psulion22 402]

1 hour ago, Stewie said:

i keep seeing new 11ks pop up on SLS but always in small =(

So. Many. Smalls. A medium showed up a few months ago and was gone in a few hours before I could get to it. 

[shoot_the_goalie 281]

I would be all over RBZ protective and any CCM Ultra Tacks sticks in my specs.  Alas, they are very hard to find now.

[start_today 770]

On 8/18/2022 at 10:18 AM, Beerleaguebumhockey said:

Is it your money? Your time? Your company? The world changes literally daily. Can you imagine if cars were still on ten year cycles? Or medication? Or food Products? Or clothes? Or electronics? Or anything anymore? Companies can’t leave products for two or three years anymore. Consumers get bored. This is the world luckily you don’t have to participate because last years stuff is always on sale or available. It’s silly to think companies can’t release and try new products yearly. This post is old school thinking and sounds bitter for no reason other than you can’t handle change like a baby boomer. It just doesn’t affect you if you don’t want it to

oof. Maybe stick to equipment review videos. No reason for the cringey “but what about progress” 9th grade young republican soapbox speeches. 

This board has been around a long time because people can disagree and have opinions without someone else flying off the handle and calling names and all that. Be polite. 

[Beerleaguebumhockey 16]

43 minutes ago, start_today said:

oof. Maybe stick to equipment review videos. No reason for the cringey “but what about progress” 9th grade young republican soapbox speeches. 

This board has been around a long time because people can disagree and have opinions without someone else flying off the handle and calling names and all that. Be polite. 

 

43 minutes ago, start_today said:

oof. Maybe stick to equipment review videos. No reason for the cringey “but what about progress” 9th grade young republican soapbox speeches. 

This board has been around a long time because people can disagree and have opinions without someone else flying off the handle and calling names and all that. Be polite. 

I apologized if you read further. Seen it a lot on Reddit etc and got me. Should have been far more constructive and discussion based

[Jbear 113]

Agreed. The apology was made, sincere, and accepted. I think we've all done this at one time or another. The double-edged sword that is the Internet. I think overall it's been a valuable discussion. 

[clarkiestooth 235]

I learned that PBH is a pretty big hitter. Having a 2600 stick inventory, and selling them, in Nevada is impressive. 

[Beerleaguebumhockey 16]

22 hours ago, Jbear said:

Agreed. The apology was made, sincere, and accepted. I think we've all done this at one time or another. The double-edged sword that is the Internet. I think overall it's been a valuable discussion. 

Ain’t that true. Sometimes to easy to just word vomit and not think how it sounds or came across. Saw a lot of interesting points on the thread.  

Edited August 22, 2022 by Beerleaguebumhockey

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:47 PM, start_today said:

Is it your money? Your time? Your company? The world changes literally daily. Can you imagine if cars were still on ten year cycles? Or medication? Or food Products? Or clothes? Or electronics? Or anything anymore? Companies can’t leave products for two or three years anymore. Consumers get bored. This is the world luckily you don’t have to participate because last years stuff is always on sale or available. It’s silly to think companies can’t release and try new products yearly. This post is old school thinking and sounds bitter for no reason other than you can’t handle change like a baby boomer. It just doesn’t affect you if you don’t want it to. 

 

I don’t think rewarding bad consumer behavior is a healthy thing. For example, Apple has convinced everyone that they need the new iPhone/Macbook the day it releases even though there are only incremental updates at best. Eventually, this always gets the best of companies when they are chasing innovation, just look at Intel and others who once owned the market and now are struggling to maintain their market share. Like anything, there is a law of diminishing returns. For hockey equipment, if you chase weight, you likely sacrifice durability and/or protection. 

[BenBreeg 493]

Qualifying something as bad or good is subjective.  Sustaining radical innovation is almost impossible, incremental innovation is the lifeblood of most companies.  It is not uncommon to cede market share in the long run, it's sort of the basis of, along with serving existing customers, the Innovator's Dilemma.  You need to find the blue ocean, the areas to innovate in where others aren't playing.  Easier said than done.  Eventually the entire ocean may become red in which case something becomes a commodity and competes on price alone.

[Beerleaguebumhockey 16]

15 hours ago, PBH said:

I don’t think rewarding bad consumer behavior is a healthy thing. For example, Apple has convinced everyone that they need the new iPhone/Macbook the day it releases even though there are only incremental updates at best. Eventually, this always gets the best of companies when they are chasing innovation, just look at Intel and others who once owned the market and now are struggling to maintain their market share. Like anything, there is a law of diminishing returns. For hockey equipment, if you chase weight, you likely sacrifice durability and/or protection. 

Innovation and progress always come from pushing limits and then dialing back and then tweaks and then big gains and problems. Linear progress is actually over. Progress is now more like 3-4 steps forward. 1-2 steps back in todays world. Something crazy happens, they try and improve it and actually take a few steps back sometimes. Going back to the original discussion of hockey ccm is famous for it. Trigger 5, ft3, as3 line is great example. Huge progress in terms of shot power release and weight. Those sticks are insane. First time I shot sticks in awhile that are far and behind anything ever made. But literally blew up mere hours into their use. So come the trigger 6, as4, ft5 and ccm dialed back a bit. Better durability but the recoil, shot power only marginally better than the trigger 4, ft2. As2. So improvement isn’t so much linear any more. Tweak and tweak. So you aren’t incorrect in saying that about apple. But as mentioned progress has to happened to make gains. Sometimes it’s big, sometimes small and sometimes something works amazing but something else is compromised by doing so and adjustments are made 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Beerleaguebumhockey

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, Beerleaguebumhockey said:

Innovation and progress always come from pushing limits and then dialing back and then tweaks and then big gains and problems. Linear progress is actually over. Progress is now more like 3-4 steps forward. 1-2 steps back in todays world. Something crazy happens, they try and improve it and actually take a few steps back sometimes. Going back to the original discussion of hockey ccm is famous for it. Trigger 5, ft3, as3 line is great example. Huge progress in terms of shot power release and weight. Those sticks are insane. First time I shot sticks in awhile that are far and behind anything ever made. But literally blew up mere hours into their use. So come the trigger 6, as4, ft5 and ccm dialed back a bit. Better durability but the recoil, shot power only marginally better than the trigger 4, ft2. As2. So improvement isn’t so much linear any more. Tweak and tweak. So you aren’t incorrect in saying that about apple. But as mentioned progress has to happened to make gains. Sometimes it’s big, sometimes small and sometimes something works amazing but something else is compromised by doing so and adjustments are made 

I think you would get more substantial progress with a 2-3 year release cycle as that gives you more data points and time to dial in a product. If you are releasing a product annually, you are in a constant state of scurryingto get something out the door. You need to release a product, gather data, determine what to enhance, fix, or modify, then source materials and tooling, build the product, test it, refine it, and finally ship it. IMO, 12 months is too small of a window. 

In addition to owning the hockey store and training center, I am an engineer specifically for cloud computing and emerging technologies. I also dabble in mechanical and electrical engineering a well. The product lifecycles these manufacturers are doing are not sustainable long term. This is why the cost of equipment is going up, and the benefits are becoming less.

[Beerleaguebumhockey 16]

14 minutes ago, PBH said:

I think you would get more substantial progress with a 2-3 year release cycle as that gives you more data points and time to dial in a product. If you are releasing a product annually, you are in a constant state of scurryingto get something out the door. You need to release a product, gather data, determine what to enhance, fix, or modify, then source materials and tooling, build the product, test it, refine it, and finally ship it. IMO, 12 months is too small of a window. 

In addition to owning the hockey store and training center, I am an engineer specifically for cloud computing and emerging technologies. I also dabble in mechanical and electrical engineering a well. The product lifecycles these manufacturers are doing are not sustainable long term. This is why the cost of equipment is going up, and the benefits are becoming less.

Totally appreciate the response especially with your back ground in both those areas. 
 

perhaps a happy medium needs to be established! 

[VegasHockey 1280]

7 minutes ago, Beerleaguebumhockey said:

Totally appreciate the response especially with your back ground in both those areas. 
 

perhaps a happy medium needs to be established! 

That's what I am hoping for. It's more stressful owning a hockey store, performing sales forecasting, and booking than doing my engineering work. With engineering there are variables and through applied methodologies we can narrow those variables using data, analytics, adaptive machine learning, and other tools. Trying to forecast purchasing habits of retail customers when the manufacturers are in a state of disorder when it comes to release cycles, inventory issues, and a whole host of other variables that are entirely outside my control is beyond stressful. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by PBH

[Beerleaguebumhockey 16]

13 minutes ago, PBH said:

That's what I am hoping for. It's more stressful owning a hockey store, performing sales forecasting, and booking than doing my engineering work. With engineering there are variables and through applied methodologies we can narrow those variables using data, analytics, adaptive machine learning, and other tools. Trying to forecast purchasing habits of retail customers when the manufacturers are in a state of disorder when it comes to release cycles, inventory issues, and a whole host of other variables that are entirely outside my control is beyond stressful. 

The last couple years didn’t help supply chains are in turmoil 

[VegasHockey 1280]

13 hours ago, Beerleaguebumhockey said:

The last couple years didn’t help supply chains are in turmoil 

Even more reason for them to slow down.