Balsillie's Back

[RadioGaGa 162]

I'm just curious if Hamilton, ON has a stadium big enough to support an NHL team? Doesn't the NHL have regulations about minimum seating and all that?

If only Seattle had a new stadium! Not that it will ever happen, but I'll keep dreaming.....

Copps Coliseum has a hockey capacity of just over 17,000. But, the concessions, and luxury boxes are severely lacking. It is a 2 level building...lower bowl holds close to 9,000...but there is no upper concourse. Everything comes down to one level. And, parking downtown around the building is not great.

[HattrickSwayze 3]

I hope a southern Ontario team happens for the league...it just makes the most sense.

Not really, we need some more teams out West so Columbus and Detroit can go into the East where they belong.

I say Las Vegas and Portland or Seattle or Kansas City.

KC and Seattle don't have basketball teams to compete for fans in the winter months, Portland also has an arena that could serve as their home right away. Vegas would only work from a conference alignment perspective as they really couldn't handle a team next year.

I don't believe there is any suitable arena in southern Ontario for a team to play, though I could be wrong.

The problem with Seattle is even if someone wanted to bring a team here, there's no suitable arena for an NHL team. Key Arena's not big enough (if I remember right), and it needs to be updated anyways. I think it would be a good market though. The two WHL teams do really well here, with Everett having pretty much the best fan base/attendance in the league. Seattle probably isn't a place people figure hockey is popular, but the adult league around here is supposedly the 6th biggest in the country. Plus you'd have the cross-border rivalry with Vancouver.

But, I digress. It won't happen, but it's worth dreaming about.

[Penguinsfanatic 0]

Everyone is acting like this is big news..come on Phoenix has been struggling for a while, if some is willing to dish out that much money in times like this and willing to put money into the franchise albeit somewhere else then more power to him. It doesn't matter who owns the 'yotes as long as they stay in Phoenix then they will always be in financial trouble..it's obvious no one really cares to much about hockey in AZ...

[Chadd 916]

The problem with Seattle is even if someone wanted to bring a team here, there's no suitable arena for an NHL team. Key Arena's not big enough (if I remember right), and it needs to be updated anyways. I think it would be a good market though. The two WHL teams do really well here, with Everett having pretty much the best fan base/attendance in the league. Seattle probably isn't a place people figure hockey is popular, but the adult league around here is supposedly the 6th biggest in the country. Plus you'd have the cross-border rivalry with Vancouver.

But, I digress. It won't happen, but it's worth dreaming about.

I would think Seattle has the potential to be a good market and have a built in rivalry with Vancouver. Much like one would expect KC to have a natural rivalry with St Louis.

[dontdumpdangle 0]

would never happen but toronto goes to the western conference and the coyotes move to hartford and finally THE WHALE IS BACK!!! haha i wish

[Trippingblue 1]

Maybe we'll get another chance at the Coyotes here in San Diego. We were in the running when they moved out of Winnipeg, we elected to spend money on the Super Bowl instead.

The Sports Arena ice is too small width and length-wise. Plus, it only seats like 15K.

[Chadd 916]

Maybe we'll get another chance at the Coyotes here in San Diego. We were in the running when they moved out of Winnipeg, we elected to spend money on the Super Bowl instead.

The Sports Arena ice is too small width and length-wise. Plus, it only seats like 15K.

15k only makes it easier to sell out :lol:

[Jordan 13]

A key component in the Balsillie battle for support from the other owners will lie in the fact that Balsillie is setting a very high price for the value of a struggling franchise.

Many of these owners are up to their eyeballs in debt. Many of these loans have covenants requiring the equity value of the team being financed remains above a certain value or debt to equity ratio. The price that Balsillie is prepared to pay sets a very high value that the other owners can hold up to their lenders to establish the value of their franchises.

It is quite possible that if a lower price were somehow approved that it could trigger a number of technical defaults on loans around the league.

I wouldn't understimate Balsillie in this one.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/...-in-the-desert/

[Sed27 0]

A key component in the Balsillie battle for support from the other owners will lie in the fact that Balsillie is setting a very high price for the value of a struggling franchise.

Many of these owners are up to their eyeballs in debt. Many of these loans have covenants requiring the equity value of the team being financed remains above a certain value or debt to equity ratio. The price that Balsillie is prepared to pay sets a very high value that the other owners can hold up to their lenders to establish the value of their franchises.

It is quite possible that if a lower price were somehow approved that it could trigger a number of technical defaults on loans around the league.

I wouldn't understimate Balsillie in this one.

I was just listening to the CBC and it sounds like the NHL is going to contest the deal on grounds that Jerry Moyes didn't have the authority to file for Chapter 11. If I understand correctly, the crux of the argument is that the NHL was in de facto control of the Coyotes because of the funds being floated to the team.

Despite what one may think of Bassillie, you have to give him credit for being creative.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

I dont understand why bettman doesnt want this guy to have an NHL team. Hes willing to pump millions upon millions of dollars into the most financially troubled franchise, and bring them to canada where they will sell out almost every single night, and save other owners money by not having to pay for the debts of Phoenix.

[Jordan 13]

According to the article that JR posted, Moyes himself is one of the largest unsecured creditors. In that case, he doesn't need to be the "official owner" in order to seek bankruptcy protection for the company. Any creditor, who's loan is in default of payment can petition the court for the company to be put into bankruptcy.

This one will be very interesting.

[Chadd 916]

I dont understand why bettman doesnt want this guy to have an NHL team. Hes willing to pump millions upon millions of dollars into the most financially troubled franchise, and bring them to canada where they will sell out almost every single night, and save other owners money by not having to pay for the debts of Phoenix.

Seriously?

You put the team in Hamilton, the Sabres go out of business. Balsillie has refused to go through the normal process of buying a team and is trying to bully the NHL into giving him everything he wants, even if it will put another franchise out of business. And as I've said before, if he isn't willing to play by the rules now there's no reason to believe he will abide by league rules once he gets in as an owner. It's easier to keep him out than to throw him out once he's in.

There is also the currency imbalance to consider. It was not too long ago that the Canadian dollar was 65 cents to the US dollar and if it gets anywhere close to that multiple canadian teams are going to be in serious trouble again.

[Sed27 0]

I dont understand why bettman doesnt want this guy to have an NHL team. Hes willing to pump millions upon millions of dollars into the most financially troubled franchise, and bring them to canada where they will sell out almost every single night, and save other owners money by not having to pay for the debts of Phoenix.

As Chadd said, it has to do with the fact that Bassillie is attempting to circumvent the rules and strong arm the League into selling him a franchise. All money aside, the NHL doesn't like being dictated to.

[Law Goalie 147]

From what people are telling me, the best Balsillie can hope for if this goes the hard legal route is that years from now he'll own a hockey team with no league to play in and no players signed to its roster: the NHL will disperse the players in a waiver draft, their contracts will play out, and the league will kick the franchise out.

All I can hope is that he's going this route as a gesture of good faith to show Bettman and the ownership group how serious he is. They are not likely to get an offer this sweet or timely from any other buyer. Then again, putting the move in as a condition of the bankruptcy agreement has tied everybody's hands. What he *should* have done, perhaps, is to arrange some sort of trial period, like playing some percentage of the Coyotes' games in Hamilton -- give the league a condition they can agree to without losing face.

[chippa13 1844]

would never happen but toronto goes to the western conference and the coyotes move to hartford and finally THE WHALE IS BACK!!! haha i wish

Half of that already has. Remember, Gretz/Melrose beat Toronto in the Western Conference Finals.

The other half, the Wolfpack is as close as Hartford will ever get to the NHL again.

[Jordan 13]

There is also the currency imbalance to consider. It was not too long ago that the Canadian dollar was 65 cents to the US dollar and if it gets anywhere close to that multiple canadian teams are going to be in serious trouble again.

It is also not that long ago that the CDN dollar was at par...and it will be again in the near future. By the way, all of the Canadian teams make money...not so in the US.

More importantly, at every exchange rate in history and at every single juncture the Toronto Maple Leafs have sold out and made seious money. The Toronto Star newspaper got their hands on internal memo that projected profits to be upwards of $105 million per year by 2011.

This region(souther Ontario) can easily support another team profitably...no matter what the exchange rate is.

In Pheonix they get barely half of the seat sold at the cheapest ticket price in the league. In Toronto they have been sold out since 1942, and have the most expensive average ticket price in the league.

[chippa13 1844]

Go back not too far and all Canadian teams except the Leafs were in dire straights due to paying American dollar salaries and taking in Canadian dollar revenues. It wouldn't be too prudent to add another franchise that would be at the mercy of the rise and fall of the exchange rate.

[Chadd 916]

There is also the currency imbalance to consider. It was not too long ago that the Canadian dollar was 65 cents to the US dollar and if it gets anywhere close to that multiple canadian teams are going to be in serious trouble again.

It is also not that long ago that the CDN dollar was at par...and it will be again in the near future. By the way, all of the Canadian teams make money...not so in the US.

That's an interesting prediction, I haven't seen any other economist suggest that the currencies will be on par at any time in the near future. The Leafs will make money no matter what they do, it's a fact of life. If you put the other team in Toronto, I have no problem with it. If you put the team anywhere that it can impact the Sabres, that's bad business and you're just trading one dead franchise for another.

Go back not too far and all Canadian teams except the Leafs were in dire straights due to paying American dollar salaries and taking in Canadian dollar revenues. It wouldn't be too prudent to add another franchise that would be at the mercy of the rise and fall of the exchange rate.

That's my point exactly.

[Jordan 13]

That's an interesting prediction, I haven't seen any other economist suggest that the currencies will be on par at any time in the near future

According to Buffet: if you spend ten minutes per year listening to economists you've likely wasted 9 minutes...

Any who...In Canada we have positive trade surplus, lower to no defecit, much smaller debt to GDP than the US. We sell commodities, Us buys them. As there is global economic recovery (ex-US) commodity prices rise; Canada gets richer while the US (an importing nation) gets relatively poorer. The US is printing money in the most irresponsible and hap-hazard fashion in its' history...while Canada is not.

Just take a look at the CDN/USD cross rate over the last month and a half! 1.28 down to 1.16...on its' way 1.00 <_<

Regardless, another team in southern Ontario is an instant money maker...season tickets would be sold out in a matter of hours; or, Bettman can continue propping up a failed franchise that never worked. Oh, and wait, several more southern US franchises are coming soon to the same inevitable end.

[Chadd 916]

Regardless, another team in southern Ontario is an instant money maker...season tickets would be sold out in a matter of hours; or, Bettman can continue propping up a failed franchise that never worked. Oh, and wait, several more southern US franchises are coming soon to the same inevitable end.

So you're in favor of moving another team into a market that will destabilize the Buffalo franchise and force them into moving in just a few years?

[RadioGaGa 162]

Regardless, another team in southern Ontario is an instant money maker...season tickets would be sold out in a matter of hours; or, Bettman can continue propping up a failed franchise that never worked. Oh, and wait, several more southern US franchises are coming soon to the same inevitable end.

So you're in favor of moving another team into a market that will destabilize the Buffalo franchise and force them into moving in just a few years?

The NHL, in their infinite wisdom would probably move the Sabres to Phoenix.

[westcoastsniper 0]

I don't see how that would destabilize the sabres, is there that many people from the hamilton and surrounding areas that are cheering for and supporting the sabres over the border??

I didn't know an American corporation could be so communist in it's anti-blah blah blahs last time I checked close competition ends up benefiting both teams one only has to look at how many soccer teams are in London, or the fact that Glasgow a city of 600,000 can support two soccer teams that have both their coffers filled to the brim all the time.

we're not talking about inserting another team in tampa bay for chrissakes this is Ontario a la' 'hockey factory' CANADA, and buffalo is almost Canada so lets bring the team there and let's play some fucking hockey, it's about time we see a (Canadian) owner that's got some balls and isn't smacking his forehead like Wang is over in long island every second of every day.

I'm sort of tired of the passive aggressive bullshit that bettman and his cronies pass on us, like we can't see right through him and stupid red tie that he's been rocking since he was made commish.

anyway, that's my opinion... for what's it's worth (obviously not the paper it's written on)

[Law Goalie 147]

I happened to live in Glasgow for a while, and frequented Ibrox regularly, so I can speak to that.

Firstly, Scottish football is a far less costly operation than NHL hockey: pitch to ice, relative salaries, etc. Secondly, there are at MINIMUM 50,000 fans in seats for a Glasgow Derby, closer to 70K with standing (which will jump to 70K seated and close to 100K if the renos go through), and they drink substantially more than we do: the gates and concessions are an order of magnitude higher.

The only real similarity is that there's a century of support for a professional sport in each city. The other issue is that the GTA contains an enormous population of people who are only aware of hockey as something odd that happens during the winter. We are not a city of wall-to-wall hockey fans.

[top 1974 0]

Regardless, another team in southern Ontario is an instant money maker...season tickets would be sold out in a matter of hours; or, Bettman can continue propping up a failed franchise that never worked. Oh, and wait, several more southern US franchises are coming soon to the same inevitable end.

So you're in favor of moving another team into a market that will destabilize the Buffalo franchise and force them into moving in just a few years?

The destabilizing the Buffalo franchise is a common argument in the press. The Buffalo franchise is only surviving today due to the NHL "equalization" program. Here are the 2008 Forbes NHL team valuations including operating income. These are the bottom 10 teams, the last number in the chart denotes operating income in millions of dollars (these teams are all in the red). You can see Buffalo on the list. (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/nhl08_NHL-Team-Valuations_Income.html)

Current Value 1 ($mil)/ 1-Yr Value Change (%)/ Debt/Value 2 (%)/ Revenue ($mil)/ Operating Income ($mil)

7 Boston Bruins 263 8 46 97 -3.0

27 Atlanta Thrashers 158 6 44 70 -6.1

26 Washington Capitals 160 10 43 73 -6.9

28 Columbus Blue Jackets 157 4 29 71 -7.1

25 St Louis Blues 162 12 74 73 -8.6

29 New York Islanders 154 3 65 64 -8.8

21 Buffalo Sabres 169 4 30 76 -8.9

24 Florida Panthers 163 8 49 74 -9.4

30 Phoenix Coyotes 142 -3 63 68 -9.7

22 Carolina Hurricanes 168 8 54 75 -11.5

In contrast, for 2008, the 6 Canadian teams had an average 24.85 million operating income profit. Strip out the Leafs, and you still have an average operating profit income of 16.54 million dollars.