KOR Shift 1 and 2

[TBLfan 25]

I was just replying to it being mentioned that it was unbranded, I do not believe that is the case.

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

Gotcha.

[joshy207 15]

Great thread! Two questions,

1. if I'm currently wearing a bauer supreme 8090 in an 8.5, does anyone know what size I would take in the Kor Shift1?

2. any opinions on how the shift1 compares to the one90?

Thanks! ~katz

You'd probably be a 9.5 in a Shift 1. I wear 8090s in a 9, and I had Shift 1s in a 9.5 that were too tight. There's about 3/4 size difference between the two models.

[The Fresh Young MikeyD 0]

Any idea where I could get a pair of Shift 1's online? HockeyGiant's not working for me.

I've been watching the forums for quite sometime and found a bunch of helpful information so I figured I'd finally do my part and register when I had something to useful to contribute.

Quintin, if you're still looking for a pair of Shift 1 contact Kor. With the Canadian dollar doing so well against the American dollar I was going to order through HockeyGiant as well. The closest dealer to me was clearing-out its inventory of Shift 1, but unfortunately all its stock was too small to fit my large feet and the staff weren't interested in ordering in a larger pair for me. I was ready to buy from HockeyGiant, but it turns out that process of ordering cross-border is very complicated.

HockeyGiant ships FedEx air to Canada, which includes brokerage fees, but after talking to FedEx I found out a special form needs to be filled-out to avoid possibly paying duties. One might assume that with NAFTA, seeing "Designed in Canada Made in Mexico" printed on the box would mean customs would do a quick check to verify the contents and send it right along. I figured that before placing my order I'd contact someone in the international department at HockeyGiant to get some clarification on the information I got from FedEx; I've read enough horror stories of people receiving huge bills from the courier upon delivery to know I better be fully informed before ordering. Although the employee at HockeyGiant hadn't heard of filling out a form for NAFTA, to her credit she contacted Kor, who inturn contacted me. Kor offered me the following:

1) To look into having someone fill-out the NAFTA form so I could purchase the skates through HockeyGiant and avoid the possible duty charges.

2) See if it had a pair of Shift 1 at its factory and if it had the right size sell them to me directly (thereby saving me the hassle of the cross-boarder bureaucracy and proabably saving me quite a bit of money on shipping and handling too).

3) Sell me a pair of Shift 2

The person at Kor wanted to insure that I was aware of the Shift 2 and that I wouldn't be disappointed if I soon heard and saw people talking about their new pair of Shift 2. He also took the time to explain the differences between the Shift 1 and Shift 2 and didn't pressure me to order one over the other.

I had him look into option two and get back to me while I pondered what he had told me. Kor got back to me the next day and I went ahead and purchased the Shift 2. Kor shipped promptly and I got them just in time for my next game. I had them heat moulded and sharpened at my LHS before hiting the ice. So far it's only been two games, but I'm very happy with them.

Now I would have much prefered to have been able to buy them at a knowledgeable LHS in an environment where I could get expert advice and compare a lot of different brands. I buy all of my running shoes at a local store that caters to only runners for those very reasons. That being said the customer service at Kor is exemplary. Given how little profit there must be selling a single pair of skates to me they went above and beyond what could be expected. I really think with this level of customer service they have a decent shot at expanding their distribution. I know an LHS can only reasonably stock what the consumer wants, so Kor really has a tough battle ahead. But from working in a small business I know I'm much more inclined to recommend a customer something new if I think the product is the best for his/her needs and that my supplier is giving me full support when I need it and great customer service.

So Quintin, ultimately my advice to you is that if your LHS (or any one within a reasonable distance) doesn't carry either the Shift 1 or Shift 2 (I'm guessing that's the case if you're currently residing in Scotland) I'd contact Kor directly because based on my experience everyone working there will do everything they can to help you get in a pair of their skates.

[The Fresh Young MikeyD 0]

Your main problem with the NAFTA situation is that the Shift1 is a Made In China skate. That could get really interesting at the border.

I had someone at HockeyGiant look into that and according to that person their system lists it as made in Mexico. Now I don't know if that's accurate or not. If I had been told the skates were made in China I wouldn't have even considered placing an order through the site because as you said I'm sure the duties would be quite hefty. That's why I'm more than happy to pay the slight premium of purchasing from an LHS. But this is starting to get a little off-topic so I'll just say I'm Kor stepped-in and I didn't have to deal with any of that.

[baz5 0]

yes, its even in the vid. ;)

Baz5

[ice-ed 0]

Great post Rubo, you got me more interested in knowing what the skate is really about.

So, I decided to do some research, and from the expresions some people have about KORs service I decided to contact them.

First off I was impressed how fast I got a response, they even got me all the way in with the technical people to chat about my questions and interest on the skate, let me make it clear here that I'm no dealer, and until now I haven't bought any KOR skates (yet), but still they took the time to attend my concerns and explained all I wanted to know.

I'd like to share this with ya'll: (I'm taking out my crib notes)

(This is my first time quoting here, so please forgive me if I screw up the format)

Well I can make two arguments here one is technical one is ethical, this is going to be a long reply please bare with me.

Lets start with technical flaws.

Kor's design came over from Speed skating technology, where the main focus is speed and more speed without any agility, so the main objective was energy transfer. Even so they still use a spring action blades to compensate for the stiffness of the boot so there is some flexibility when you skates. Now they have long radius on their blades so balance is less of an issue then in a hockey skates. Now most of you who have seen the Easton Carbon fiber shell where there are special cuts for proper flexibility of the boot. This is done so that the weight of the skater spreads out evenly and the boot skate as a spring mechanism when you push of your stride. If there is no flex point at all then the weight is not distributed evenly, but rather into one pressure point, this is why you see people wobble back and forth then they turn on Kors. Also when there is not enough flex in your boot, then sometimes your toes actually slip on the ice when making hard stride. Also if you’re skating on almost one pressure point all the time your feet start to hurt after an hour or so, Now the heavier the skater the more problems they’ll have form the pressure. Also if a boot has proper flex then it acts out like a spring giving you much better response on the ice. But the biggest issue here is probably balance. I think for this boot to work the holder must be so soft that it flexes drastically to compensate for that pressure of the boot and spread it out evenly in the whole length of your foot.

Next issue is one piece carbon fiber boot. We all know which skate outsells any other brand, they don’t use one piece boot, what they use is a plastic outsole separately attached to the plastic ankle heel support then a separate tow box is attached to the plastic outsole. Because these three components are not truly a one piece boot they give you just enough flex in all the right spots.

You're right Rubo, their original design comes from speed skates technology, and they even had the Shift 1 skates manufactured in a China facility where some other brands of speed skates were done.

Now, one of the reasons they changed their manufacturing facility was their intention to improve and introduce new technology into the skate.

They explained to me that the composite molding process used in China is a "messy", difficult to control, ugly process. The final weight on a base could vary up to 50 grams. Now in Mexico, they have developed a more controlled process, that not only allows them to control weight to a +/- 5gr tolerance, but they have the possibility of designing the base to different flex, something to do with fiber orientation on the material that allows them to do that. That feature wasn't in the Shift 1's.

They explained to me as well that the Easton shell doesn't have that feature either, having the cuts in the shell helps making the skate less rigid, since the materials are all thermo sets, while the Shift 2's have a unique construction using a thermo formable material as well, this is what allows the base to form to your feet once heated.

The main thing is the energy transfer, and what they told me was that unlike any skate on the market, the KORs are truly heat moldable. Any other hockey skate uses heat expanding foam, that make you feel like the boot was molding to your feet, but what it really does is that you end up with more "cushion" between you and the skate, this even on the Easton skates.

While having the base mold to your feet, you're eliminating any gaps between you and your skate, taking full advantage of the transfer of energy.

Man, there was some more cool stuff but I couldn't understand all of it

They made sure however that I was comfortable with them, and that all my questions were answered, I truly didn't expect this level of service from someone who hasn't bought anything yet. Now, I'm definitely done staling and going out to get my Shift 2's. I look fwd to share my thoughts with you after I get to skate on them. :)

Cheers,

[Chadd 916]

I think Kor pushed every other company into the wrong direction which is weight and speed but forgetting agility, which is much more important in my opinion then any another aspect of skating. Every time I watch NHL games the most agile players are always the most dangerous ones with the exception of few speedsters like Gabi.. So companies should focus on agility first and speed + performance second. There is a reason why Figure skates have not evolved over the years, because of the leather boot gives it certain flex in certain areas which can't be substituted even with today's modern technology and materials. And the funny thing is Figure skating is a multi million or even billion dollar sport in Europe, so they have the resources and marketing ability to throw everybody into different direction, but they can't.

Bauer started pushing everyone in the direction of weight years ago with the introduction of the Vapor series of skates, not Kor. Now everyone is playing the weight game with Easton and Bauer pushing each other more and more every year. Before that Graf was the lightest kid on the block and a lot of people went that route simply because of the weight. Even in their promotional materials, Kor never promoted their weight as a big feature. I'm going to guess that's because they weren't all that light. The lower cut of the shift1 also makes for a more agile boot, yet most customers wanted something taller and more restricitve. The facts just don't support your conclusions.

As for the NHL, most of the "agile" skaters are also guys with pretty good quickness or speed. I can't think of many guys that are slow but have great feet.

Let's take another example here. We'll take 600+ NHL guys and dress them all up in 1970's skates where there is no energy transfer or ankle support, then we'll see who can actually play and at what level. The more evolved we design the gear the more less talented people we allow into our sport. So in fact we're fooling ourselves that we're good skaters and he have a wicked wrist shot when we don't, and that's why the sport suffers at the elite level.

The players of today are far better coached and conditioned than the guys from the 1970s. I don't believe your experiment would produce the results that you expect.

[Law Goalie 147]

"...Throwback eeeeeverything!"

[ice-ed 0]

Well I think sometimes innovation trends sets us back rather then forward. The main focus is always on performance rather then feel, because it’s easy to measure, test and analyze performance, but it does not always comes out on top in the end.

For example lets take a 1967 Mustang and a 2007 Ferrari, let them both get up to 100mph even though your driving at the same speed you get a different feeling in both cars as a driver, but one of them has better performance to a certain degree. I think Kor got away from the feel aspect of the skate into the performance only aspect which they advocate all the time with the energy transfer slogan. There is a thin line between performance and comfort in ice skating, and the fact that millions of dollars are at stake people are blinded by what’s actually good for them and what’s good from marketing point of view, well that could be said about any industry not just hockey. But this could change if the consumers drove the market direction not the manufacturers which is almost impossible in todays materialistic world.

<_< There’s this one thing that a guy called Charles Darwin said about evolution of the species. Of course players are better now that back in the day, the level of competition rises up every time. I don't think is fair in any form to compare a 1967 Mustang to a 2007 Ferrari, it's not fair to compare a 2007 Mustang to a 2007 Ferrari either.

I agree with Jimmy here, your arguments are interesting, but there not really supported. The sport is always hesitant to try something new, PRO players at their level of performance tend even to be to superstitious, they might have a bad couple of games and with the pressure of a six figure salary they look to find a scapegoat, "can't feel the puck lately, the curve is off, my skates.... whatever". I'm just saying it’s difficult for KOR to get these guys attention to start, since their product is so different, then they make it more difficult by not getting reps and not paying the NHL fee to enter the show. It's quite an up hill task...

I think Kor pushed every other company into the wrong direction which is weight and speed but forgetting agility, which is much more important in my opinion then any another aspect of skating. Every time I watch NHL games the most agile players are always the most dangerous ones with the exception of few speedsters like Gabi.. So companies should focus on agility first and speed + performance second. There is a reason why Figure skates have not evolved over the years, because of the leather boot gives it certain flex in certain areas which can’t be substituted even with today’s modern technology and materials. And the funny thing is Figure skating is a multi million or even billion dollar sport in Europe, so they have the resources and marketing ability to throw everybody into different direction, but they can’t.

Let’s take another example here. We’ll take 600+ NHL guys and dress them all up in 1970’s skates where there is no energy transfer or ankle support, then we’ll see who can actually play and at what level. The more evolved we design the gear the more less talented people we allow into our sport. So in fact we’re fooling ourselves that we’re good skaters and he have a wicked wrist shot when we don’t, and that’s why the sport suffers at the elite level.

When you pay $300 for an NHL ticket you don’t come to watch 4th line guys play dump and chase, because you already know the outcome of that play. You pay to see a talented player who might surprise you every time with something different. So the more focus companies are giving to performance the more they’re killing the creativity of our sport and the entertainment factor, that’s why there is a big debate on rule changes.

Another thing they shared with me is that they have actually fitted players already, including one that's very much in the news lately. They told me that they actually have a "stiffer" skate for pros, since they prefer it that way, this is contrary to what your saying. On the maneuverability, the video on the site illustrates how there technology improves turning, and coming from the speed skate background I would say: Better Maneuverability + More Speed = Better Performance.

Just my thoughts by the way,

Anyway, I just ordered my skates from them and I should get them next week :D , I just can't wait.

[Monty22 835]

"...Throwback eeeeeverything!"

Best commercial ever.

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

Chadd the reason people want higher cut boot is it adds speed and significant amount of it if let’s say you added one inch of height you would definitely notice your speed increase, same argument here about the players who tape their tendon guards, they do it because it adds speed

How do you figure? (serious question - curious to see the answer) The people I've notice tape their tenon guards do so because they need the ankle support. I wrap my laces around my tenon guard because I don't lace my skates to the top because I like the extra mobility and the lace helps keep my foot in place.

I personally would love a shorter cut boot, but that's just me.....

[Jordan 13]

Lower cut boots are faster. The greater the range of ankle flexion, the greater the power transfer. That is why speedskates are so low.

Higher cut boots offer geater ankle support for crossovers etc. If the boot is high. energy is lost forcing the boot to flex. Leather, does not "snap" back, or recoil, so there is no rebound effect...just lost energy.

[Chadd 916]

Lower cut boots are faster. The greater the range of ankle flexion, the greater the power transfer. That is why speedskates are so low.

Higher cut boots offer geater ankle support for crossovers etc. If the boot is high. energy is lost forcing the boot to flex. Leather, does not "snap" back, or recoil, so there is no rebound effect...just lost energy.

Absolutely correct.

[Steve123 0]

Lower cut boots are faster. The greater the range of ankle flexion, the greater the power transfer. That is why speedskates are so low.

Higher cut boots offer geater ankle support for crossovers etc. If the boot is high. energy is lost forcing the boot to flex. Leather, does not "snap" back, or recoil, so there is no rebound effect...just lost energy.

So is this kind of the idea of the Graf Ultra G7 an 707, less ankle support so you skate faster except it isn't really a lower cut boot. If you had a lower cut boot but still wrapped your laces or taped tenon guard wouldn't you still be losing energy?

[ice-ed 0]

Now this makes a lot of sense... Thanks Jordan, right on...

Lower cut boots are faster. The greater the range of ankle flexion, the greater the power transfer. That is why speedskates are so low.

Higher cut boots offer geater ankle support for crossovers etc. If the boot is high. energy is lost forcing the boot to flex. Leather, does not "snap" back, or recoil, so there is no rebound effect...just lost energy.

[chippa13 1844]

Lower cut boots are faster. The greater the range of ankle flexion, the greater the power transfer. That is why speedskates are so low.

Higher cut boots offer geater ankle support for crossovers etc. If the boot is high. energy is lost forcing the boot to flex. Leather, does not "snap" back, or recoil, so there is no rebound effect...just lost energy.

Speed skates are cut so low because otherwise they would have zero ability to make a turn.

[Jordan 13]

Speed skates are cut so low because otherwise they would have zero ability to make a turn.

Speedskates, due to the incredibly long radius, have almost zero ability to make a turn no matter what the height of the boot. Turns are essentially accomplished by cross-overs. I have been on them, trust me they don't turn.

Back to my point about low cut boots. They increase ankle flexion. The greater the range of motion the greater the power transfer. The spring hinged blades on speed skates are so that the skater can flex even farther and still have blade contact with the ice.

As for the graf 707 etc, and other soft flext boots, they are attempting to replicate the ankle flexion of low cut boots while still providing some of the lateral support of higher cut boots.

[ice-ed 0]

I'm sure that the retailers and Kor's sales reps that frequent this board are "thrilled" with this news that you bought your skates direct...

Anyway, I just ordered my skates from them and I should get them next week :D , I just can't wait.

haha... didn't mean to upset anyone... however they took my order, but they mentioned that they would referred it to an online distributer, I checked Hockey Giant and HockeyMonkey, but neither carry the 2's, so I don't think is comming from them... what was awesome is that they continue to shine with great customer service, they didn't have to do that at all, but the best thing is that they helped me to feel comfortable on getting hi-end skates without fitting them first ... I haven't and I wouldn't done it any other way...

[sabuonez 1]

hey guys...interesting stuff here...I e-mailed the guys at Kor for some info, and he sent me a nifty little brochure, which says an 11 US shoe and an 11 Shift 2 would fit the same....however the guy at Kor said I should wear a size 11.5 for "added comfort in the toe box." Now, my question to you guys who already have them is whether you guys like a tighter fitting skate (I wear a 9 CCM Pro Tack w/ no socks) as opposed to one that fits...I don't know...a little big I guess I'll say...just basically any help would be cool before I drop $500 on these to experiment with...thanks.

[The Fresh Young MikeyD 0]

Sabuonez, typically I wear a size 12 shoe. There's about a quarter to three eights of an inch space between the end of my big toe and the front of most of my shoes. I can definately fit an eleven shoe if I have to but it isn't comfortable to do a lot of walking with your toes constantly banging against the front.

The pair Shift 2 I have is a size 11. My toes touch the toe cap on skates and I wear pretty thick wicking socks designed to give you some cushioning while running. If I were to go bearfoot my toes would just feather the cap. But even if you like a really tight fitting skate the neoprene or whatever Kor lines the toe cap with makes it quite comfortable. When I first tried on the Shift 2 I was a little worried an 11 might be too small but as someone in the this thread wrote your heel sits really far back when your done with your heat fitting.

[Katzenjammer 1]

Anyone skating on the Shift 1 - have you noticed an increase in agility, all other things being equal?

Putting aside the question of how the lower cut boot effects straightaway speed and power, I would think the lower cut would allow for more ankle mobility/flexion, which would result in tighter turning, no? (again, all other things being equal, such as blade radius...)

[Chadd 916]

hey guys...interesting stuff here...I e-mailed the guys at Kor for some info, and he sent me a nifty little brochure, which says an 11 US shoe and an 11 Shift 2 would fit the same....however the guy at Kor said I should wear a size 11.5 for "added comfort in the toe box." Now, my question to you guys who already have them is whether you guys like a tighter fitting skate (I wear a 9 CCM Pro Tack w/ no socks) as opposed to one that fits...I don't know...a little big I guess I'll say...just basically any help would be cool before I drop $500 on these to experiment with...thanks.

I'm a 9.5 in CCM and 10.5 in Kor

[althoma1 575]

sabuonez Posted Nov 26 2007, 06:34 PM

hey guys...interesting stuff here...I e-mailed the guys at Kor for some info, and he sent me a nifty little brochure, which says an 11 US shoe and an 11 Shift 2 would fit the same....however the guy at Kor said I should wear a size 11.5 for "added comfort in the toe box." Now, my question to you guys who already have them is whether you guys like a tighter fitting skate (I wear a 9 CCM Pro Tack w/ no socks) as opposed to one that fits...I don't know...a little big I guess I'll say...just basically any help would be cool before I drop $500 on these to experiment with...thanks.

I wear 8.5 Kor Shift 1's and would be a 7.5 in CCM which would reflect the same sizing Chadd indicated. Unless the Shift 2 sizing has changed dramatically then you'd likely take 1 size larger than your Tacks in Kors. I'm surprised the brochure you were sent suggests they fit true to shoe size as the original Shift 1 fitting guide suggested 1 size down from shoe size and I take a 10E dress shoe and went 1.5 sizes down to the 8.5. Based on shoe size alone and my experience with my own sizing I'd guess you should be somewhere around a 9.5 or 10, but using the CCM Tacks you have as a guide would be much better than using the shoe size. With the Kors you want to go as tight as possible without your toes being crushed or experiencing serious pain - then after you get them baked they will mold to the shape of your foot. If you get them too big it defeats the whole zero negative space concept. I think you'd be swimming in size 11s if the sizing is similar to the Shift 1's so hopefully you got to see Chadd's post before ordering.

Katzenjammer Posted Today, 01:22 PM

Anyone skating on the Shift 1 - have you noticed an increase in agility, all other things being equal?

Putting aside the question of how the lower cut boot effects straightaway speed and power, I would think the lower cut would allow for more ankle mobility/flexion, which would result in tighter turning, no? (again, all other things being equal, such as blade radius...)

Honestly I haven't noticed an extreme increase in agility compared to previous skates, but I can tell you that they're the most comfortable skates I've ever worn. There are no pressure points. I played in back to back 1 hour games on Sunday and then played 3 on 3 on Monday night with no subs and I had no foot pain at all. In previous skates this wouldn't have been the case. My feet are locked into the skate, there's no slopiness and my heels don't lift at all so there's no pain, discomfort or blisters. That's the biggest thing I've noticed. I can't say for certain there's been any increase in agility or speed - it's possible, but it's something that would have to be tested.

[jcp2 2]

A little off topic, but I didn't want to start a completely new thread. One of the bolts on the holders on my Shift 1's fell off. It feels like the threads on the T-nut (I presume) on the sole is stripped, as I can put the bolt back in and spin it around without it truly rethreading. None of the local shops in Ann Arbor know what to do, as they've never seen the skate before. Has anybody come across this problem before? The skates are a year old, so certainly out of warranty. Otherwise, they are the most comfortable skates I've used.