Some Thoughts on Skate Marketing

[mrusse01 0]

Would you be upset if you had been swayed by marketing into a lesser product? That is the only problem I have with a company using marketing to sell something as important to hockey as a skate.

From my perspective, that quote is the entire gist of this guy's argument, and I don't really see how that is a controversial statement. Is he saying NBH (or anyone else) specifically markets people into a lesser product? No.

Sure, he said he thinks One90's are too stiff...and there are loads of people out there in a softer boot that would agree 100%. Doesn't make it better or worse, and I don't think he ever implied that...you guys just took it as meaning it is a crappy product simply because this guy works for Graf so you automatically assume if he says he doesn't like another product then he is trashing it.

[DarkStar50 679]

Every skate company is using marketing to sell their skates. This is a given in the business. It is ultimately up to the consumer to make the purchase decision for the skate. The discussion here seems to be, partly, that marketing the skates is the root of the problem. The root of the problem is an uninformed customer in an uninformed LHS. Now, the responsibility shifts to both the consumer and the LHS. Each is responsible for making the best decision for themselves. As a guy selling skates for a long time, I often tell skate buyers, who have skated for a long time, now I am only a guide in your purchase. With the buyer's skating experience, he should know how a skate is should fit on him best. You have to make the final decision about what fits best on you.

[LkptTiger 1]

The problem there, mruss, is the fact that probably 98% of companies and businesses around the world engage in some form of marketing. The fact that Graf doesn't do so gives them no right to act "holier than thou" and shit on the ones that do - especially if Tyler is going to insinuate that the other companies like NBH and CCM aren't interested in innovation within the industry. That's bullshit; especially when you consider the fact that Graf has pretty much been sitting on their hands for the better part of two decades, and that the best product they've put-out 1) was put-out LONG ago 2) isn't really available anymore.

[Chadd 916]

Every skate company is using marketing to sell their skates. This is a given in the business. It is ultimately up to the consumer to make the purchase decision for the skate. The discussion here seems to be, partly, that marketing the skates is the root of the problem. The root of the problem is an uninformed customer in an uninformed LHS. Now, the responsibility shifts to both the consumer and the LHS. Each is responsible for making the best decision for themselves. As a guy selling skates for a long time, I often tell skate buyers, who have skated for a long time, now I am only a guide in your purchase. With the buyer's skating experience, he should know how a skate is should fit on him best. You have to make the final decision about what fits best on you.

Kids are making decisions based solely on the marketing now and the online superstores allow them to buy the skates without any human interaction. That is just bad for everyone except the guy who owns the website.

[chippa13 1844]

My personal rule for marketing and sales; don't tell me why their's is worse, tell me why your's is better. I've walked out of car dealerships because of this credo.

[Chadd 916]

My personal rule for marketing and sales; don't tell me why their's is worse, tell me why your's is better. I've walked out of car dealerships because of this credo.

If only we could force politicians into following that credo

[DarkStar50 679]

Every skate company is using marketing to sell their skates. This is a given in the business. It is ultimately up to the consumer to make the purchase decision for the skate. The discussion here seems to be, partly, that marketing the skates is the root of the problem. The root of the problem is an uninformed customer in an uninformed LHS. Now, the responsibility shifts to both the consumer and the LHS. Each is responsible for making the best decision for themselves. As a guy selling skates for a long time, I often tell skate buyers, who have skated for a long time, now I am only a guide in your purchase. With the buyer's skating experience, he should know how a skate is should fit on him best. You have to make the final decision about what fits best on you.

Kids are making decisions based solely on the marketing now and the online superstores allow them to buy the skates without any human interaction. That is just bad for everyone except the guy who owns the website.

People who buy skates online get what they deserve if they bought the "wrong" skate. That isn't marketing. That is an uninformed purchase decision.

[Chadd 916]

Every skate company is using marketing to sell their skates. This is a given in the business. It is ultimately up to the consumer to make the purchase decision for the skate. The discussion here seems to be, partly, that marketing the skates is the root of the problem. The root of the problem is an uninformed customer in an uninformed LHS. Now, the responsibility shifts to both the consumer and the LHS. Each is responsible for making the best decision for themselves. As a guy selling skates for a long time, I often tell skate buyers, who have skated for a long time, now I am only a guide in your purchase. With the buyer's skating experience, he should know how a skate is should fit on him best. You have to make the final decision about what fits best on you.

Kids are making decisions based solely on the marketing now and the online superstores allow them to buy the skates without any human interaction. That is just bad for everyone except the guy who owns the website.

People who buy skates online get what they deserve if they bought the "wrong" skate. That isn't marketing. That is an uninformed purchase decision.

There are a lotof arrogant people who think they get as much information via marketing as most shop employees do. In many cases, they aren't far off. It's a big reason I believe in suporting shops that have people who really know their business.

[Rustpot 1]

Darkstar- Yes and no. CCM releasing the "Ovechkin SE" edition of Vector skates was, in my eyes, a move to separate the easily swayed from their cash. If the Vector was the skate for them great, if they bought it just for the Ovey appeal (which I'm sure tons of kids did) then it's kinda CCM's fault to prey on the need to own your favorite pro's same equipment.

It is, however, business strategy. Just because the guy comes from a company whose business strategy is to shit all over the customer and rely on the fact that a niche of people still want their skates doesn't mean RBK, CCM, Bauer and everyone else aren't aloud to build hype and try to get people in their skates.

The bottom line is, there are "product" companies and "marketing" companies. A perfect company would develop an outstanding product and then find a way to market it. Old Bauer was good at that. Old CCM as well. But the companies that bought them are leaning way harder to marketing only. "Who cares if the product isn't that great, if we stick it on a golden boy, it will sell".

This is where he got into trouble. Saying (maybe in not so many words) that Graf is focused solely on the product while Nike and RBK are ruining Bauer and CCM by overadvertising products that don't have the technology to back up the claims.

He was wrong and ignorant in so many ways. To pimp his own company while simultaneously slandering the competition is unethical business practice if he is going to be affiliated with Graf in any way.

He is taking a holier than thou attitude toward the other camps. If he thinks Graf is the best ever, he should do so by following the credo chippa mentioned - explain why Graf is the best, not why the others are bad.

[GrafPro55 0]

Darkstar- Yes and no. CCM releasing the "Ovechkin SE" edition of Vector skates was, in my eyes, a move to separate the easily swayed from their cash. If the Vector was the skate for them great, if they bought it just for the Ovey appeal (which I'm sure tons of kids did) then it's kinda CCM's fault to prey on the need to own your favorite pro's same equipment.

It is, however, business strategy. Just because the guy comes from a company whose business strategy is to shit all over the customer and rely on the fact that a niche of people still want their skates doesn't mean RBK, CCM, Bauer and everyone else aren't aloud to build hype and try to get people in their skates.

The bottom line is, there are "product" companies and "marketing" companies. A perfect company would develop an outstanding product and then find a way to market it. Old Bauer was good at that. Old CCM as well. But the companies that bought them are leaning way harder to marketing only. "Who cares if the product isn't that great, if we stick it on a golden boy, it will sell".

This is where he got into trouble. Saying (maybe in not so many words) that Graf is focused solely on the product while Nike and RBK are ruining Bauer and CCM by overadvertising products that don't have the technology to back up the claims.

He was wrong and ignorant in so many ways. To pimp his own company while simultaneously slandering the competition is unethical business practice if he is going to be affiliated with Graf in any way.

He is taking a holier than thou attitude toward the other camps. If he thinks Graf is the best ever, he should do so by following the credo chippa mentioned - explain why Graf is the best, not why the others are bad.

That's funny....I don't see the word "Graf" in my statement at all. You guys jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth all the time. Just get over it already. If your little club doesn't want me here, I'll leave. Just relax already. Go watch a hockey game and drink a beer or something. I happen to have a game tonight, so you ladies will just have to trash me all by yourselves.

[Rustpot 1]

I suppose you never said Graf, but if that's your big defense... I think we're all grown up enough to read between all the lines.

Edit

By the way, no hard feelings against you. No one doesn't want you here, the main posters in this thread spoke out against the actions taken against you in your place of work. If they were two-faced in those comments then they have more problems.

Like SRI said, you just need a bit more tact when making comments if you're going to try and represent Graf in any way. If you want the freedom of making your own opinion public, make sure you're clear in that you have no affiliation other than working on a line and putting skates together.

[GrafPro55 0]

I get crapped on because people "read between the lines". The topic was about Marketing. I shared my opinion about not liking a skate I buy to have a large part of the price tag as marketing. It was only because of where I work that some hostile people jumped to conclusions and "read between the lines".

You just jumped to a conclusion yourself, or were trying to belittle me, by saying I work on an assembly line putting skates together. You sir, are wrong.

I was serious. You guys need to chill. Have a beer, Watch a hockey game, or go take it out on somebody at a pickup game.

[Gummer12 134]

I'm one of the biggest idiots On this site, and even I read through the lines.

[bucko 0]

I'm one of the biggest idiots On this site, and even I read through the lines.

ha ha ha stop, please stop now!!! :lol:

[Rustpot 1]

You just jumped to a conclusion yourself, or were trying to belittle me, by saying I work on an assembly line putting skates together. You sir, are wrong.

For all the times in this thread you asked for credentials, you never actually said what you did for Graf, even when directly asked. Your sig said something about pro skates.

I didn't jump to any conclusions. I said to make it clear what you do and how you're affiliated. The only thing you've made clear is that you don't work for PR or marketing. If you're a VP or a manager but all you deal with is skates, skate orders, skate repairs, etc. then we have a lot better idea of who we're talking to.

If your only affiliation with the company is that you assemble skates for them, fine, say that so no one can ever make the mistake of assuming you're some how-to-do rep here to make a name for the company.

When you don't fill in all the lines, people can only help but read between them.

Like I said, more tact.

[TBLfan 25]

I coached a kid who said "I hate Crosby because he is a whiner". I high fived that little man.

The bottom line is, there are "product" companies and "marketing" companies. A perfect company would develop an outstanding product and then find a way to market it. Old Bauer was good at that. Old CCM as well. But the companies that bought them are leaning way harder to marketing only. "Who cares if the product isn't that great, if we stick it on a golden boy, it will sell".

I was saying that CCM and Bauer were doing fine. I don't hate Bauer or CCM. I hate that Nike buys Bauer, tries to make everyone think that they are making some crazy new technology and charging 800 dollars for it. Guess we won't have to worry about that anymore. Bye Nike. Stick to sweat shop shoes.

I'd keep going but I got tired of smelling the bullshit. If you'd like to continue reading his bs, click "view all members posts" on his profile.

[MLSman 22]

This was quite an interesting thread...glad I read it

One thing that I don't recall being mentioned is the materials used to produce skates. Along with innovation comes the cost of materials. When you take into consideration a new composite outsole, or a carbon quarter, the innovation you design has to be produced in quantity, and that quantity costs money.

Take for instance the computer industry, which I have a substantial amount of experience in manufacturing. To produce an individual component like a motherboard has a combination of costs. First there is the R&D of the board design, which costs time and labor of your most important assets...your best engineers. Then there are a series of test boards, which can cost about 20-50x the amount of a production board. Modifications are made to that board based on alpha testing, done internally. Once a "reference" test board is designed, a beta board is produced, which costs $150,000 to $200,000 for the initial template board. Any issues with that board requires a new "run", which costs at least $150,000 to $200,000 to create that template. So when you buy a motherboard for a computer, your board may only cost the manufacturer $35-$40 to produce. However, you pay $200 for it because the manufacturer must recoup all of the cost to give you a board that actually works.

I can only imagine a similar situation with hockey skates...with even more drastic pre-production costs due to the limited amount of availability of the new materials and equipment to produce the product. I remember when the the One90 came out NBH displaying all the new equipment they had to procure to make and repair the boot. There is a substantial amount of cost required that very few can invest...not to mention justify. I can't begin to thank companies like NBH and RBK/CCM for taking the time to invest that much in trying to make us more comfortable and perform better.

With that said, it is difficult for smaller companies with less of a budget to do this. Some get lucky...but the ability to reproduce that luck is not as likely. In the case of Graf, they once had a remarkable reputation. This is no longer the case...but to say there is no understanding of why the cost of a 7 series skate hasn't gone down might not be obvious to all. Has anyone by chance asked what an S9 cost? I am sure it is not cheap. The opposite effect of using an older technology means that the demand of the materials is no longer the frequency and quantity of what it used to be. This will certainly drive the price up. So when a smaller demand is further reduced due to the use of other materials, the older materials cost even more.

I worked for a laptop manufacturer in that same situation, using the same plastic case as Dell. When Dell bought the same enclosure, our price was $150 per unit with a minimum order of 2000 units. When Dell stopped using the enclosure, our price went up to over $500 per unit at the same minimum order. Relating it back to skates, when NBH, CCM, and RBK stopped using natural or synthetic leather, I am sure the cost increased due to the lack of volume. It happens in every industry.

My point? Longevity only seems to be accomplished with a combination of innovation, new materials, and standing by your product. A slip in any of those essentials could be devastating. Notice I said nothing about marketing. Funny how Graf built a fantastic reputation without it in the past, and is losing its reputation without it in the present.

[LkptTiger 1]

In the case of Graf, they once had a remarkable reputation. This is no longer the case...but to say there is no understanding of why the cost of a 7 series skate hasn't gone down might not be obvious to all. Has anyone by chance asked what an S9 cost? I am sure it is not cheap.

I understand what you're saying, though I'm not entirely sure that connection is a valid one. The S9 is a custom order/pro skate, which is obviously going to demand a bit more money than a comparable skate at retail. The Graf 700-series skates have been around for almost two decades (Christ, I wasn't even alive when they were first designed), yet still command a premium price...one which my Graf Rep has informed me will actually be going UP in the coming months; despite the fact that mass-production has pretty much killed the product.

[TBLfan 25]

Very nice post. I do have to question whether the situation with cases and leather is accurate. It's not exactly the same situation but it's an interesting point. I dont believe there is a skate specific leather and I doubt they're using a premium aniline leather in these skates. The cost is set by the market, if all high-end skates are $500+ and you don't have your skates at the same price the everyday customer is going to think there is something wrong.

Also, you said that graf built a fantastic reputation without marketing, and that they've come full circle by losing the great reputation without marketing... Now I ask, in a way can word of mouth be marketing, possibly passive marketing? In which case it comes from the employees in the way they present themselves and the product AND grafs customer service. Do you think there is a something beyond the span of the atlantic ocean between Graf Canada and Graf Europe? Possibly a relationship between customer service/PR and success? Sure Graf has always done better in Europe for obvious reasons but do we see a correlation in the decline of graf CS and the decline in Graf sales in NA?

[rinkrat94 1]

Why are you guys getting so worked up about what GrafPro has to say. He doesn't think the one90 is innovative, who cares. Even if you think he is full of it(I think he was just expressing an opinion) any internet forum is going to be full of mis-information. Relax. It is really not that important :)

[DarkStar50 679]

Market your skates or die.

[MLSman 22]

I dont believe there is a skate specific leather and I doubt they're using a premium aniline leather in these skates. The cost is set by the market, if all high-end skates are $500+ and you don't have your skates at the same price the everyday customer is going to think there is something wrong.

Agree that there is not a skate specific leather, but the fact that other skate manufacturers used leather or synthetic leather has the effect that will either drop the cost due to volume...or competition. For example, CP93 was cheaper because other synthetic leathers compete with it for Graf's business.

Also, you said that graf built a fantastic reputation without marketing, and that they've come full circle by losing the great reputation without marketing... Now I ask, in a way can word of mouth be marketing, possibly passive marketing? In which case it comes from the employees in the way they present themselves and the product AND grafs customer service.

There is absolutely no doubt that word of mouth is marketing. I should have been more specific to speak of marketing as an advertising campaign with a budget and employees and such. Word of mouth can be the best...or the most damaging...marketing in any line of business.

Do you think there is a something beyond the span of the atlantic ocean between Graf Canada and Graf Europe? Possibly a relationship between customer service/PR and success? Sure Graf has always done better in Europe for obvious reasons but do we see a correlation in the decline of graf CS and the decline in Graf sales in NA?

I am glad you brought that up. This happens quite a bit in the computer industry, where a group in a different part of the world essentially licenses the rights to produce and label products as the same. The home company has top notch product, but the licensing company has a less than recommended product. I can think of just about every memory chip manufacturer in the business. Samsung, Infineon, Micron....top notch products, but many companies that put their product on a POS printed circuit board...just garbage. Automotive companies suffer from this situation. Volkswagen comes to mind. I don't know about today, but years ago my father would bitch about the difference in quality from the German made parts and the identical parts from Mexico.

[DarkStar50 679]

Best car I ever had was a 1977 Ford Fiesta made in Germany! 35mpg back in the day. Sorry, off topic.

But there has to be a difference between Graf Canada and Graf Europe, yes?

[MLSman 22]

I understand what you're saying, though I'm not entirely sure that connection is a valid one. The S9 is a custom order/pro skate, which is obviously going to demand a bit more money than a comparable skate at retail. The Graf 700-series skates have been around for almost two decades (Christ, I wasn't even alive when they were first designed), yet still command a premium price...one which my Graf Rep has informed me will actually be going UP in the coming months; despite the fact that mass-production has pretty much killed the product.

I do understand your differentiation, but I disagree. The only reason why, due to demand, the S9 is not or will not be a mass produced skate, is because the materials are no longer available to mass produce. The 7000, 8000, and 8090 would still be produced if the materials were available, as they were some of the best selling skates in the industry...and a company like NBH that must be concerned with bottom line (it is a company with investors and such) would not stop selling a high demand product if it could access the materials and still maintain a similar profit.

If we compare the prices of these 3 skates...which I believe all hovered around the $400 mark, and the Vapor XXXX, with more than 10 years of innovation, inflation, and material changes doesn't justify a $150 increase in price?

Then compare that same...for example...Graf 705 that has not changed since I last pissed in my diaper with the exception of mods in the outsole, sits at $499 and is going up? This should at least start to add some validity to the argument that the only justification for a price increase is the price of materials.

[Aussie Joe 0]

Tell you what, Tyler. Go sign-up with another username and I'll give you a head start by not telling JR to check on that. This time around, don't reference where you work and use it when it's convenient to you to mention it.

I'm not ashamed of where I work. I have answered a ton of PM's from people wanting advice on skates. All I ask is that I am not attacked for having an opinion. If you feel it necessary to hide behind anonymity, so be it.

Now I remember, my PM wasn't answered.