Some Thoughts on Skate Marketing

[avery16 5]

i want to add, if tyler is bashing nike-bauer, and the one90s.. didnt he say in this thread or another thread, those are the skates he wears?

[ktang 34]

Another thing that might be hurting Graf; they have a series of product lines, meant for different feet and skating styles, which is good for the ultimate end-user (the players).

If a LHS stocks up on Graf, it has to stock up on all the high-end lines, then all the mid-level, then all the low-end. That's a lot of stock.

If it stocks up on NBH or CCM, it only has to stock up on one line, which has a high-end, mid-level, and low-end.

The selection of what makes up your product line is a big part of marketing. Graf has an excellent lineup for the end-user (the player), but not for its primary customers (the LHS).

[Chadd 916]

If a LHS stocks up on Graf, it has to stock up on all the high-end lines, then all the mid-level, then all the low-end. That's a lot of stock.

To hell with mid and low end, look at the high end product:

703, 705, 707, 709, 735, G3, G5, G7, G9, Ultra G3, Ultra G5, Ultra G70.

That doesn't include the goal skates either.

[avery16 5]

and assuming you stock all of those skates in every size thats 120 pairs, if its just one size each.. how many hockey shops can afford to do that, plus stock bauers ccms rbks.. plus all the sticks that are out.. i do not envy shop owners.. but im sure it makes it easier for them to just stock ccm and bauer..

[TBLfan 25]

The 4 P's of marketing are:

Product, Place, Price, Promotion

Very true...but the first P in business is Profit.

Let's look back to why Nike sold Bauer...because it does not fit with their normal profitability requirements to sustain. Nike as a company is used to paying $3 in materials to produce a $150 sneaker. They are not used to the technology and investment required for long term sustainment of a superior product. They certainly have the budget for that R&D, but not the long term mindset to use it properly.

The fact is that at the end of the day, public marketing is NOT the reason why the pair didn't work. At Nike, Bauer hockey folks most likely struggled on a daily basis to "market"...or essentially sell internally...hockey innovation to stockholders, investment firms, and a board of directors. It is safe to say that very few of them most likely understood the chemistry and physics of hockey equipment and design. It is also safe to say that ALL of them understand cost per price ratios.

What I am trying to say is that the explosive responsiveness of "ultralite tech mesh with Thermoformed X-ribs" did not give the public the Vapor XXXX, but the ability of the Bauer development team to "sell" the cost of the materials to make the boot over other materials, and the ROI for that choice.

Technically correct but you have to keep in mind(I assume you know) that cost for a retail store on that $160 air max 360 is about $80. Then typical freight, R&D, blah blah blah. Just covering bases here. Nike isn't making all the money, retail stores do make a lot on shoes. This is why shoes can go on sale soo cheap. Nike's cost to retailers is actually lower than New Balance, Asics and Brooks.

[epstud74 24]

As for Graf, many people will agree that their skates are of good quality and that the 700 series is\was quite durable. Thebigest problem from what I have heard from this website and local shop employees is the lack of stock or parts in case a boot is defective or a blade\holder breaks. Several stores do not stock Graf for those reasons alone. Why this happens?? I have no idea..

[VakarLajos 5]

As for Graf, many people will agree that their skates are of good quality and that the 700 series is\was quite durable. Thebigest problem from what I have heard from this website and local shop employees is the lack of stock or parts in case a boot is defective or a blade\holder breaks. Several stores do not stock Graf for those reasons alone. Why this happens?? I have no idea..

We have not had any problems with parts. Our rep is pretty kick ass, that helps a lot.

I think a lot of places don't stock them because they are expensive and don't sell all that well. And in selling them you need to know the fit of the different models. Many LHS sadly have people working there who don't know the difference between the fit of RBK vs NBH let alone the different models in their lines.

I agree, the majority of skaters I see with Grafs are good skaters though.

[epstud74 24]

No bubble to be burst here. The 8000 didnt sel well at all but I think many skaters appreciate what the 8090 or 8000 brought to the table plus they offered performance with a traditional look. Something the One95 is an attempt at I suppose? Why was the 8090 a popular boot? I had a spare pair that lasted ONE day on eBay.

I'm sure if Bauer re-introduced the 8000, people would buy it in large numbers, but marketing and innovation go hand in hand. You may run into teething troubles with the new stuff, but people are always looking for an edge or to have the latest thing. Just human nature at play here. The S9s that I have seen have been the 8000 dressed up to look like a One90. At my local Play It Again Sports, they have about 10 new Bauer 8000s next to a couple used S9s and they're identical with the exception of the One90 graphics. I can see why many players want to stay in the Bauer 8000 boot. Excellent boot, light and comfortable compared to past Bauer Supremes.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the 8000 was a DOG at retail. Why would it sell today?

It didn't sell because too many dealers were worried about stocking them after the 7000 (first revision was too stiff, second go-around slightly improved). Even at the NHL level, you weren't seeing a ton of guys switching over to it - they stayed in their 5000/7000s. At the same time, the Vapor had begun to peak at the retail and pro level.

Love affair with the Supreme started again when the 8090 hit.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Why was the 8090 a popular boot? I had a spare pair that lasted ONE day on eBay.

Question or statement?

8000 isn't a direct comparison to 8090. Much different skate.

[epstud74 24]

Question... They do share similar aesthetic qualites though. Im getting at the traditional look angle. I will agree that the 8000 and its precursors were overly stiff. Hell I was wearing 707s at the time so Rapides would have felt stiff to me. Question for you. You ever run into consumers that buy two of the same pair at a time?

[MLSman 22]

Technically correct but you have to keep in mind(I assume you know) that cost for a retail store on that $160 air max 360 is about $80. Then typical freight, R&D, blah blah blah. Just covering bases here. Nike isn't making all the money, retail stores do make a lot on shoes. This is why shoes can go on sale soo cheap. Nike's cost to retailers is actually lower than New Balance, Asics and Brooks.

Very true. Foot Locker payed the bills while I was in college! :) Cost was about $95 for a pair of Jordans, which were were about $150 retail.

Think that's bad...eyewear is the real scam. Optometrists pay about $80 for a pair of high end frames...and retail is about $300! First job out of college was at Marchon in Long Island, where they manufactured accuflex, and famous brands like CK, Fendi, etc. Employees paid cost for 2 a year. It was great getting $300 CK sunglasses for $60!

It is hard to have a discussion on all skates, because the NBH and RBK/CCM situation is SO ridiculously different from the Graf situation. I do find myself scratching my head on how they do business in the 21st century. Obviously, what they are doing now is not working. There have been quite a few times where I like many others have considered the switch. Hell, I used a pair of 705s twice...I hated them but was curious about the 735 as many of my friends that wear Grafs have updated to that boot. Frankly I am not a gambling man and do not want to have to deal with customer service IF and when something goes wrong. I actually hope they find a way to fix their issues, but the damage seems to have already been done.

[TBLfan 25]

Technically correct but you have to keep in mind(I assume you know) that cost for a retail store on that $160 air max 360 is about $80. Then typical freight, R&D, blah blah blah. Just covering bases here. Nike isn't making all the money, retail stores do make a lot on shoes. This is why shoes can go on sale soo cheap. Nike's cost to retailers is actually lower than New Balance, Asics and Brooks.

Very true. Foot Locker payed the bills while I was in college! :) Cost was about $95 for a pair of Jordans, which were were about $150 retail.

Think that's bad...eyewear is the real scam. Optometrists pay about $80 for a pair of high end frames...and retail is about $300! First job out of college was at Marchon in Long Island, where they manufactured accuflex, and famous brands like CK, Fendi, etc. Employees paid cost for 2 a year. It was great getting $300 CK sunglasses for $60!

Yeah man, I know. Freaking Oakley employee discount is 75%.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Let's not go listing costs on here. We don't do it for hockey, no need to do it for other product.

Although, I am getting my Oakley RX for pretty damn cheap ;)

[rmnyi 0]

Another thing that might be hurting Graf; they have a series of product lines, meant for different feet and skating styles, which is good for the ultimate end-user (the players).

If a LHS stocks up on Graf, it has to stock up on all the high-end lines, then all the mid-level, then all the low-end. That's a lot of stock.

If it stocks up on NBH or CCM, it only has to stock up on one line, which has a high-end, mid-level, and low-end.

The selection of what makes up your product line is a big part of marketing. Graf has an excellent lineup for the end-user (the player), but not for its primary customers (the LHS).

Very true. I don't own a store but as a consumer what appeals to me about Graf is the number of options available to find a good fit. If I did own a store, I would try to incorporate some of the mid/high end models. As an adult player who has struggled finding skates, I would rather pay a little more for the service and fitting and get the best skate for me. I've used Mission & CCM for inline and CCM for ice for the past 4 years and never realized how poorly my skates fit. IMO, the fitting is the key selling point.

[epstud74 24]

Nice.....Can I sell you stocks for no fee in exchange for a cheap visor?

Technically correct but you have to keep in mind(I assume you know) that cost for a retail store on that $160 air max 360 is about $80. Then typical freight, R&D, blah blah blah. Just covering bases here. Nike isn't making all the money, retail stores do make a lot on shoes. This is why shoes can go on sale soo cheap. Nike's cost to retailers is actually lower than New Balance, Asics and Brooks.

Very true. Foot Locker payed the bills while I was in college! :) Cost was about $95 for a pair of Jordans, which were were about $150 retail.

Think that's bad...eyewear is the real scam. Optometrists pay about $80 for a pair of high end frames...and retail is about $300! First job out of college was at Marchon in Long Island, where they manufactured accuflex, and famous brands like CK, Fendi, etc. Employees paid cost for 2 a year. It was great getting $300 CK sunglasses for $60!

Yeah man, I know. Freaking Oakley employee discount is 75%.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Nice.....Can I sell you stocks for no fee in exchange for a cheap visor?

Technically correct but you have to keep in mind(I assume you know) that cost for a retail store on that $160 air max 360 is about $80. Then typical freight, R&D, blah blah blah. Just covering bases here. Nike isn't making all the money, retail stores do make a lot on shoes. This is why shoes can go on sale soo cheap. Nike's cost to retailers is actually lower than New Balance, Asics and Brooks.

Very true. Foot Locker payed the bills while I was in college! :) Cost was about $95 for a pair of Jordans, which were were about $150 retail.

Think that's bad...eyewear is the real scam. Optometrists pay about $80 for a pair of high end frames...and retail is about $300! First job out of college was at Marchon in Long Island, where they manufactured accuflex, and famous brands like CK, Fendi, etc. Employees paid cost for 2 a year. It was great getting $300 CK sunglasses for $60!

Yeah man, I know. Freaking Oakley employee discount is 75%.

Oakley is distributed by CCM, so no 75% there.

[epstud74 24]

I will settle for a supply of Oxysox.

[TBLfan 25]

And I dont work at oakley. ;)

[dalebert 8]

Let's not go listing costs on here. We don't do it for hockey, no need to do it for other product.

Although, I am getting my Oakley RX for pretty damn cheap ;)

Getting mine made up this weekend :D

[Gummer12 134]

Are you guys talking about Rx Visors, or Glasses/Sunglasses?

[Zac911 317]

It is this reality, I think, that is at the root of GrafPro's discontent. It must be very hard for someone in certain parts of the industry to know that ultimately, such a large part of the success of a product lies with how well it is marketed instead of how well it performs.

very well put. i did not want to throw my name in the ring here, but the opening statement is a great perspective. someone else mentioned the IPod thing and how they are everywhere. think about this.... look at Coffee shops NOT named Starbucks. they have great coffee and not as busy, but WARBUCKS..... errr i mean Starbucks is across the street and are super busy-- WHY??? it has to be frustrating. i know i have a solid product and getting people to switch is hard. i look at our 120XP for example. i have had lots of guys try it on and love the comfort, but half of them turn around and say if they are going to buy a Vapor style of skate then they are going to buy a Vapor. it seems the only way to break through is to cater to the gram counting crowd and make sure you have pro exposure.

EDIT-- Laughing as i write this from a Starbucks out on the road!

[DarkStar50 679]

It is this reality, I think, that is at the root of GrafPro's discontent. It must be very hard for someone in certain parts of the industry to know that ultimately, such a large part of the success of a product lies with how well it is marketed instead of how well it performs.

very well put. i did not want to throw my name in the ring here, but the opening statement is a great perspective. someone else mentioned the IPod thing and how they are everywhere. think about this.... look at Coffee shops NOT named Starbucks. they have great coffee and not as busy, but WARBUCKS..... errr i mean Starbucks is across the street and are super busy-- WHY??? it has to be frustrating. i know i have a solid product and getting people to switch is hard. i look at our 120XP for example. i have had lots of guys try it on and love the comfort, but half of them turn around and say if they are going to buy a Vapor style of skate then they are going to buy a Vapor. it seems the only way to break through is to cater to the gram counting crowd and make sure you have pro exposure.

EDIT-- Laughing as i write this from a Starbucks out on the road!

After that, the rest is easy. Pro exposure is the premium that validates your product in the hockey consumer's mind set. Always has, always will.

[Zac911 317]

in that premium of pro exposure is a very difficult game. the end result always justifies the means, but what with all it takes to do so ( ghosted product-- not all but some, perks, $$$ etc etc ) just means profit margins shrink for the dealer. its a difficult tight rope to walk. there is alot more to this conversation, but i do not think is appropriate to put on this board. the fine details of this should be kept between MFGS and their Buyers.

[Aussie Joe 0]

It is this reality, I think, that is at the root of GrafPro's discontent. It must be very hard for someone in certain parts of the industry to know that ultimately, such a large part of the success of a product lies with how well it is marketed instead of how well it performs.

very well put. i did not want to throw my name in the ring here, but the opening statement is a great perspective. someone else mentioned the IPod thing and how they are everywhere. think about this.... look at Coffee shops NOT named Starbucks. they have great coffee and not as busy, but WARBUCKS..... errr i mean Starbucks is across the street and are super busy-- WHY??? it has to be frustrating. i know i have a solid product and getting people to switch is hard. i look at our 120XP for example. i have had lots of guys try it on and love the comfort, but half of them turn around and say if they are going to buy a Vapor style of skate then they are going to buy a Vapor. it seems the only way to break through is to cater to the gram counting crowd and make sure you have pro exposure.

EDIT-- Laughing as i write this from a Starbucks out on the road!

Only tourists or halfwit 14 yo girls goto Starbucks here. Its the worst coffee I have ever tasted, period.

Although I do agree, it took me a long time to try Missions. When I did but I was dissapointed. :(

[Zac911 317]

AJ- sorry you were disappointed ( which skates if you dont mind me asking?). don't write us off for the future. the big brand names have been in hockey for much longer than we have, but we are getting better every year. where you are at i am sure it is frustrating to get gear. i have heard many horror stories for markets outside of North America.