Skating - "on your toes"

[SolarWind 23]

Ok - there's been tons of discussions already about heel lifts etc, and about how cool it is to be on your toes while skating...

Since most of the gripping power when skating forward, pivots, crossovers etc comes from the heel (the "toe flick" is used to finish the push but only add like 5% if that), so why is it so beneficial to be on the toes?

Also when skating backwards it actually creates issues & makes it easier to fall forward (over the rounded toes).

So what gives? Just trying to understand so any inside would be appreciated.

{I'm switching from 1500C with shock doctors which I assume had forward pitch to XXXX where I heard the pitch is more neutral unless I change the insoles to superfeets or something - I don't want to put heel lifts so not sure what I might be missing?)

also historically tons of PROS skated on Custom+ that were providing "on the heels" feel & some of these skaters were better then the ones we see today - Bure comes to mind etc

[Viking 1]

Being on your toes makes you bend your knees more, and assume better posture. I recently switched from Custom+ to Cobras and noticed a real improvement in my skating after I got used to the difference. It does make a difference, but it's not going to be a big enough difference that it would make Pavel Bure look like a bad skater. And unless you've seen the blades, the holders don't make a big difference because they can be profiled to whatever pitch you want, so what holder they're on doesn't really matter. Back then just about everyone skated on C+, but that doesn't mean they were all on their heels.

[lee92 2]

The way I see it, skating on your toes versus back on your heels is much like looking at a sprinter and a long distance runner. Running/skating on your toes just gives you so much more power.

[JJStripes 1]

You want to be on your toes for the same reason that we run on our toes. You are trying to go forward and it just works better.

Since most of the gripping power when skating forward, pivots, crossovers etc comes from the heel (the "toe flick" is used to finish the push but only add like 5% if that)

Actually, although many people do these movements on their heals it is better to be on your toes. That is true for crossovers, tight-turns, and many other movements. Tight-turns, for example, are easier on your heals but being on your heals slows you down. With practice you can not only maintain speed, but you can accelerate if you are on your toes.

Also, as stated above, you can be on your toes with any holder from C+ to Cobra. It's all about the rocker.

James

[SolarWind 23]

Since most of the gripping power when skating forward, pivots, crossovers etc comes from the heel (the "toe flick" is used to finish the push but only add like 5% if that)

Actually, although many people do these movements on their heals it is better to be on your toes. That is true for crossovers, tight-turns, and many other movements. Tight-turns, for example, are easier on your heals but being on your heals slows you down. With practice you can not only maintain speed, but you can accelerate if you are on your toes.

this is a controversial statement & goes agains every single power skating advice out there (Laura Stamm & even likes of Baryshevtsev http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjZrkdYKCFM)

Personally I have no idea how it could be possible to not loose the edge @ top speed while not using the heel - at cruising speeds - sure - that's what most people do anyhow, but not in tight turns that require max knee bend & weight over the heels...

[wetwilly17 6]

x2 solarwind. i was thinking the exact same thing and then saw your post.

[bmclifford 0]

I have had the same question, so thanks for asking it. I currently have the Mission Pitch 3 holder in neutral, but wanted to adjust it. Seems like there is a good debate on whether setting it to be on the heels or toes would be better. Looking forward to the input.

[TBLfan 25]

It's purely a comfort thing.

[JJStripes 1]

Personally I have no idea how it could be possible to not loose the edge @ top speed while not using the heel - at cruising speeds - sure - that's what most people do anyhow, but not in tight turns that require max knee bend & weight over the heels...

I don't actually think you should be on your toes. I should have said on the balls of your feet or more towards the middle of your skates. You definitely don't want to be on your heels though.

[SolarWind 23]

The way I see it, skating on your toes versus back on your heels is much like looking at a sprinter and a long distance runner. Running/skating on your toes just gives you so much more power.

also this is a mute point since skating is an unnatural movement & is totally different from running

in running you push straight back with the power coming mostly from your hips & glutes & transferring into the ground through the balls of your feet

but in skating you can't do that as you have to keep v-diamond position (V pattern for the feet & deep knee bent with knees shaping a diamond pattern) & push back + to the side while keeping the weight on the heels for generating maximum power - even the primary muscles used are different since it's quads instead of hips & glutes

Not to mention that there's no jumping part in skating (at least in the forward stride) & feet should be kept as close to the ice as possible

If it's just a comfort & personal preference thing I understand

but I can't personally see any mechanical or other advantages...

would really like to hear some gurus on this!

[duch 0]

Skating on your toes gives you great manoeverability. You turns and cross over reaction is better but as previously posted you need to be sure to lean back over your heels in a sharp cut or turn or you'll end up on your keester. That's one of the reasons Graf is so popular because they actually improve your skating posture and stride because of the way the blade sits on the ice. Takes a while to adjust to them so you need to give yourself a few games or skating sessions in them before you'll start feeling the full benefits of the on ice stance.

[JJStripes 1]

...be sure to lean back over your heels in a sharp cut or turn or you'll end up on your keester.

I disagree. You don't want to be on your heels for tight turns. Sure it's easy to turn that way, but you lose all of your speed. Your weight needs to be below the balls of your feet.

[TBLfan 25]

That is also a moot point, two words: toe flick.

It's purely comfort.

[Chadd 916]

The more steel you have on the ice, the faster you will be. Getting too far on your toes or heels will pull some of the steel off the ice and cause you to dig in more than needed.

[Jordan 13]

It's a very simple answer, those who praise being completely on your toes have no knowledge of biomechanics of a human foot. For years Graf sold people on their aggressive pitch, but people finally caught up, that's why Bauer outsells every other skate on the market especially in the show

.

Firstly: Graf pitch does not put you on your toes, it puts you on the balls of your feet. If you have ever skated on a toe down pitch, you would know that it is very easy to shift your weight forward and back. NO PROBLEM loading the heel portion of the blades for a tight turn

Secondly: No matter how many players are on other brands, it is NOT an idictment of a forward pitch. Many skaters in Bauers have a toe down pitch profiled into their blade and/or a heel lift installed. (just ask JR about his 3mm heel lift in his 190 and 195s)

Thirdly: The idea about your weight being on the balls of your feet, is to more easily be in an athletic posture. Just watch a tennis player as they wait for a serve, or a defensive back in football just before the snap...it's bad to be caught flat footed. Ski racers have orthotics in their ski boots which often have a heel lift installed, helps the articulate their ankles - a good thing!

In the end it has little to do with the "biomechanics" of the human foot. It has everything to do with balance and posture. You mention that no one goes from Grafs to Bauers and want that aggressive forward pitch back...well, I did. I had my XXXXs profiled to a toe down forward pith to get them have that familiar feel. BTW, it works great!

[shifter 0]

It's a very simple answer, those who praise being completely on your toes have no knowledge of biomechanics of a human foot. For years Graf sold people on their aggressive pitch, but people finally caught up, that's why Bauer outsells every other skate on the market especially in the show. And Graf is the last one in the sales department. I know marketing has some effect, but in the end of the day most people go with what gives them comfort not brand name. I have yet to know a person who went from Grafs to Vapors and then wanted to switch back because they miss the forward pitch, it's the opposite they all love it.

The key is not to be fully upright, there must be a fine line between too upright , because the first few quick steps you take on acceleration you do need to use your toes, after that it's all big swing from toe to heel or the opposite when you turn. One problem is that today most skates are so stiff that you can’t flex it forward for those few first quick steps, so people add lifts to compensate.

I mentioned this before, they need to come up with some sort of mechanism that speed skaters use on their blades with a spring on it, so when you accelerate the heel would slightly lift up, but when gliding or at full stride it’s should pull the heel back to it's upright position..

Cheers

well now you know.. Started out with grafs got into vapors hated them till this day and cry for another pair of grafs today. But, thats just me. I like the forward pitch and when i do sharp turns i twist my body and lean on my heel hard.. And i bend my knees a lot and thats the reason i loved grafs.

[Aussie Joe 0]

I think there is some confusion on this. I know I skate on my "toes" but in actual fact when I think about it properly, power applied and the point where there is maximum force into the ice it is on the balls of my feet.

It only feels like Im skating on my toes and its not what Im actually doing when skating.

PS: I was wondering about this issue when watching the Pavel Bure's skating stride video on the CBC webiste. I tried the technique myself and I seem to drag allot of toe into the ice.

[SolarWind 23]

PS: I was wondering about this issue when watching the Pavel Bure's skating stride video on the CBC webiste. I tried the technique myself and I seem to drag allot of toe into the ice.

I really don't think it's has any relevancy to the topic - and I have already mentioned that - every basic powerskating instructional talks about the importance of keeping skates as close to the ice as possible - Laura Stamm had "toe drag" technique introduced in 70s...

Also more I think about the "athletic posture" mentioned here more it reminds me of what I have observed for year in gyms when people can't do olimpic style squats (close stance, ass to grass) without having a small plate under their heels - as they go down their heels raise & they loose balance (this is the reason athletic shoes have heel built in)

well - it is because their achilles tendon is too tight - that's all

so by raising the heel it releases the tention @ the achilles tendon & so makes it easier to squat down - having that said 3mm lift is so marginal (plus in skating nobody goes down to more then 90 degrees knee bend angle) that I'm not even sure it matters that much other then providing additional comfort...

Also superfeets appear to have 3mm heel lift built in - I wonder if JR uses it in addition to his 3mm lift he built in?

[Jordan 13]

This topic has been covered here in some detail previously. oltrainerguy28 and JR have talked about this several times. There is a good post from shark81 on this thread also.

The thread does a good job explaining the benefits of a forward pitch. BTW, virtually every pro has had profiling done to their blades despite what has been suggested above.

Skate Pitch

well now you know.. Started out with grafs got into vapors hated them till this day and cry for another pair of grafs today

Then why don't you have your vapors profiled and/or have a heel lift installed. They can be done so that they feel the same as your grafs did.

[lee92 2]

The way I see it, skating on your toes versus back on your heels is much like looking at a sprinter and a long distance runner. Running/skating on your toes just gives you so much more power.

also this is a mute point since skating is an unnatural movement & is totally different from running

in running you push straight back with the power coming mostly from your hips & glutes & transferring into the ground through the balls of your feet

but in skating you can't do that as you have to keep v-diamond position (V pattern for the feet & deep knee bent with knees shaping a diamond pattern) & push back + to the side while keeping the weight on the heels for generating maximum power - even the primary muscles used are different since it's quads instead of hips & glutes

Not to mention that there's no jumping part in skating (at least in the forward stride) & feet should be kept as close to the ice as possible

If it's just a comfort & personal preference thing I understand

but I can't personally see any mechanical or other advantages...

would really like to hear some gurus on this!

I don't know what stride you're thinking of, but the hips and glutes play a major role in extending the hip joint, which happens during a skating stride. When skating, you're not simply just extending your leg; you're pushing and extending your hip joint. You're not going to get anywhere by just flexing and extending your knee.

[Jarick 5]

What I got from the Laura Stamm book was that your weight should be a bit more on your heels when skating forward and on your toes while skating backwards. Either way, I think it's more important to maximize edge contact with the ice.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Again, stop making inaccurate suggestions. Vapor has a different back angle then Graf it's less aggressive, it's much stiffer skate, has different eyelet orientation, higher cut boot. Doesn’t matter how many mods you will do it will not give you the same feel as Graf.

If you’re a die hard Graf user and liked your Grafs so much you would have went back, but you didn’t, which tells us you might be in that category of skaters who feel there is an improvement some sort but you can’t exactly pinpoint what it is, which is fine, we’re all here to learn. But please don’t confuse the audience with things that are not accurate.

Every skate has two factors to its pitch, one is the height of front VS Back part of the outsole, and the other one is the angle of the back (tendon guard) in relation to the outsole (Graf being most aggressive, Easton going the other way almost at 90 degree angle). You can only alter the first part with lifts or profiling, the back angle cannot be changed, which to me as crucial to comfort level as the first part.

So no, you cannot take one skate and make it the same way as another one with profiling and lifts, only if the back angle is the same on both skates then you can try to match them up, and still it won’t be the same.

I've tried almost every possible combination between the top 4 brands in pitch alternation with lifts, profiling you name it, never could match one skate to another. Maybe this is the reason each brand stays true to its pitch and not trying to imitate each other. But if we go by the numbers Bauer's pitch is the most popular one by a land slide.

Cheers

This topic has been covered here in some detail previously. oltrainerguy28 and JR have talked about this several times. There is a good post from shark81 on this thread also.

The thread does a good job explaining the benefits of a forward pitch. BTW, virtually every pro has had profiling done to their blades despite what has been suggested above.

Skate Pitch

well now you know.. Started out with grafs got into vapors hated them till this day and cry for another pair of grafs today

Then why don't you have your vapors profiled and/or have a heel lift installed. They can be done so that they feel the same as your grafs did.

I am not sure who is doing your alterations but I have NHL players have me do there "new" skates in the summer time to make them feel like their old ones and yes if the back of the boot is slightly different its not 100% the average person could not feel the difference.

I really think your making way more of something very simple!

[JJ Thompson94 0]

I think the saying "skating on your toes" is just wrong wording. Clearly it's not good to skate on your toes, you want to skate on the center part of the blade. However, it needs to feel like your skating on your toes.

Good skaters have that jumping/running action in their stride. When your going strait, it looks like running on your toes. When your going side to side, your kinda jumping on your crossover.

Even though your not really skating on your toes it feels like you are. When your squating and skating, a bit of a foward pitch helps keep you "on your toes".

Watch this video of Scott Gomez going coast to coast. He's one of the best skaters in the NHL. He's low and he's jumping on his skates. This is what proper skating should look like. That jumping/running action in his stride is what is called "skating on his toes"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U5DM6D4AwZU

It's not the BEST video cause he only does it real quick before he's about to make his move to split the D but I think you all get the point.

[TBLfan 25]

There's two different main skating styles in the NHL. There is the Russian "choppy" and the Canadian "smooth"

The Russians land the stride with the weight on the middle-back end of the runner. This looks choppy but it's effective.

The Canadian style begins with the stride in the toe. This looks smooth, and it's effective.

It's purely comfort and how you skate.

[SolarWind 23]

this is clearly turning into power skating discussion...

running the first 2-3 steps on the toes to pick up speed before starting full strides is very common technique

so as far as "jumping" goes it has it's place, but certainly not when the speed is already achieved - otherwise when people start jumping in crossovers etc they loose power - this is what Stamm calls "going nowhere fast" - rapid leg movements but not full powerful strides

I guess to TBLfan's point styles vary but the fundamentals of applying edges, and ensuring that the body weight is on the pushing leg remain the same.