Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[chiefs17 2]

Since the arbor center hole being not centered wouldn't make the wheel be off center (directly), what do you think causes the "bouncing" between the skate runner and the wheel?... The entire machine vibrating back and forth, the movement back and forth of the shaft (within the tolerance of the bearings) or some of both? If it is the entire machine that is moving, bolting it down might help some (mine is bolted down). I wonder if the issue would manifest with greater amplitude with an X-02 since it is not direct drive?

That makes sense as to why I have to do my rotating the wheel process when installing a new wheel. I'm essentially finding the spot where the imperfections in the mass of the wheel are 180 degrees out of phase with the imperfections of the arbor.

Your statement that "CNC will ensure that they are all made the same way" must not be entirely true, because your description of the amount of vibration you originally had is way more than I have even when I haven't tuned the wheel to the arbor.

The arbor center hole, where the motor shaft goes, being non-concentric to the round boss that locates the grinding wheel hole, is exactly why he's getting the bouncing. It's acting like a cam. Most of that imperfection will be reduced when the wheel get's dressed, but I think the whole unbalanced assembly causes wobble to the point of bearing tolerance max. and maybe even motor shaft flex.

My statement about CNC has a lot of variables (mainly my description of how bad it vibrated :). My machine wasn't bolted down originally, when I did bolt it down it helped a lot. Maybe yours was bolted right from the start.

[AfftonDad 88]

Disregard what I said about being able to balance the arbor. It's been a while since I have looked at it but I think Chiefs17 pointed out my error in thinking. I was thinking that both the arbor and the grinding wheel were attached to the same shaft. But I think the arbor is attached to the motor shaft and then the wheel is attached to an "arbor shaft". That would mean that if the arbor is off center then the arbor shaft is off center and then the grinding wheel is off center. This would be able to be "dressed out" to correct the "out of roundess" of the grinding wheel that would occur, but would not get rid of vibration due to the imbalance of the mass of the arbor. I don't think mine is as bad as Chiefs17 was or perhaps HockeyDad3's is.

Edited August 20, 2015 by AfftonDad

[Davetronz 109]

I'm starting to wonder how many of the portable models have similar issues. I definitely have some vibration/play in my professional portable (as compared to my fixed 3-head machine) - but to me it's still within acceptable tolerance and I can still get a great sharpen and finish out of it.

I do find that I have to try harder to get a proper finish with my portable - but that is like comparing apples to oranges in regards to speed, power, spinners vs. single-point diamond, etc.

[hockeydad3 51]

This evening i had the time to make some experiments. One theory was that there could be some problems with the dressing system. So i dressed the wheel turning it by hand without vibrations. This didn´t change the black line, nor the pattern on the blade. For the second step i used much more pressure on the skate during my passes. This was a significant improvement ont the black line and the pattern on the blade, although both symptoms remained visible. So i think that my problems are caused by the remaining vibrations. I dont´t know how much the pattern influences the performance of the skates because i can´t skate myself and don´t have an adult test pilot. Maybe i try bolting it down because the metal plate shelf my machine is located tends to vibrate.

By the way my little player is a fast skater, can make very tight turns and wants his skates done by his dad.

[chiefs17 2]

I took my grinding wheel off last night to take some photos of my modified arbor. But I can't post photo's, not sure how. There's really not much to see, except the copper shim inside the center hole, and the resurfaced part where the wheel sits.

What I did find interesting is when I put my grinding wheel back on, since it was not in the exact same place as it was when I took it off. I turned the wheel by hand and slowly eased the spinner in. The spinner made contact in a certain part of the wheel before anywhere else. This tells me my wheel is slightly out of round, or there is enough space between the wheel arbor and the center hole of the grinding wheel, that you can move it out of round. Either way it will contribute to vibration. I don't think it's a hole tolerance gap that's causing it, but I could be wrong.

Try it yourself. Before you do anything, turn the wheel by hand while slowly turning the spinner in, as you do when dressing the wheel. You should get perfect contact between the spinner and grinding wheel all the way around the wheel, since it is already dressed in that spot. Now take the wheel off and re-install it in a different position and try the same test. I'll bet you hear the spinner touch the wheel in one spot only.

[hockeydad3 51]

It is a known issue that the centerhole in the grinding wheel is slightly larger than the arbor. But this imbalance should be gone after dressing a new wheel. The fact that a wheel which was dressed by hand at very low rpm(having a smooth contact to the spinner all around) vibrates at high rpm and has the blackline-phenomenom indicates that there is a weight-imbalance in the wheel-arbor-combination. I think the maximum of the imbalance should be in the center of the black line. More experiments after i get a workbench to bolt down my x02.

[x-track 8]

It is a known issue that the centerhole in the grinding wheel is slightly larger than the arbor. But this imbalance should be gone after dressing a new wheel. The fact that a wheel which was dressed by hand at very low rpm(having a smooth contact to the spinner all around) vibrates at high rpm and has the blackline-phenomenom indicates that there is a weight-imbalance in the wheel-arbor-combination. I think the maximum of the imbalance should be in the center of the black line. More experiments after i get a workbench to bolt down my x02.

..well , yes ...but is it necessary?? ....absolutely no ...just have somebody with better equipment and quality control machine the arbor to match the diameter of the wheels and be done with it ....there's so much freeplay in mine that the wheel is always out of center .....i helped myself with teflontape at the beginning but in the meanwhile i got so frustated about it that i put the machine aside and only use the shop F02 ......should not be necessary , as the x 02 is just not a 50$ item

Hello,

let us talk about the reasons for a pattern similar to fishskin with scales. It is very hard for me to reduce the pattern on the bottom of the blade after grinding the skates of my three boys. I use a X0-2 and there is no big difference between the orange and ruby grinding wheels.It is better when i use fineshine-oil but i was never able to produce a mirror-finish. In my opinion the pattern is caused by vibrations due to imbalances of the grinding wheel, the wheel-holder and/or the driving-belt.

What do you think? And what can i do against this phenomenon ?

have somebody machine a quality , true to design dimension arbor ...plus use high quality bearings with no freeplay

( i am too busy in the summer to deal with that , but come fall , I will start this project )

have somebody machine a quality , true to design dimension arbor ...plus use high quality bearings with no freeplay

( i am too busy in the summer to deal with that , but come fall , I will start this project )

...easy check ...if you mount the wheel and tighten the lock nut ......move the spinner towards the wheel that it slightly touches it ...then turn the wheel by hand ...you should have same amount of contact to spinner all of the 360° .....who has it that way ??? mine doesn't

Edited August 24, 2015 by x-track

[fbvnyc 12]

X-track. Mine does has consistent contact through a whole revolution of the wheel on my X02.

I occasionally read this forum so please excuse me if this info has already been posted or asked:

From what I've read, I dont see anyone posting the dates of their machine's manufacturing or purchase date. I'm wondering if we could pinpoint issues back to dates.

My machine was purchased sometime during 2010, will see if I can find manufacturing date when I get home.

[Ibh44 2]

Anybody know if there is one in or around Barrie?

[mnpucker 33]

I pre-ordered mine.....So Mine is from the initial run of X02's. So somewhere around page 10 of this thread! or December 2008 No real mechanical problems, but you do have to dress the wheel to insure it is fully dressed and round. Once i had the upgraded holder all my problems went away.

December 2008! my kids were mites, now in High school. I have saved enough on sharpenings to have paid for 2 of these things. Moreover, My kids have fewer hockey trinkets, shirts and all the other stuff you get roped into buying for them when you walk in a pro shop....Sorry Pro shops but Ice time is expensive enough and you get my Dough for sticks and gear.....2 broken APX2's in one weekend 2 weeks ago.

You ask me, a sharpener is one of the first things any hockey dad should buy. Great invest meant and I can probably sell this for almost what I have into it.

Edited September 3, 2015 by mnpucker

[chiefs17 2]

I can echo mnpuckers statement to the T. Except I have an X-01.

fbvnyc - Is the wheel dressed already when you do this experiment? If it is, then try taking the wheel off the machine and rotate it and re-install it. Now try the same test without dressing the wheel. If everything is perfect, you should have the same results. If the spinner only touches in one spot first, then you have a wheel that is not concentric from it's center hole to its outside edge.

The only way this can happen is play between the center hole of the grinding wheel (there should be a little there), a poorly machined arbor, or play in the motor shaft bearings.

Let us know what you find.

[fbvnyc 12]

By rotate what exactly do you mean? Flip it over? I'll try and test it out in the next few days.

I'm going to be selling my machine in the near future since I'm going to most likely be leaving the country for work. I hope to get a good return on my investment.

[chiefs17 2]

By rotate what exactly do you mean? Flip it over? I'll try and test it out in the next few days.

I'm going to be selling my machine in the near future since I'm going to most likely be leaving the country for work. I hope to get a good return on my investment.

Rotate by removing the top nut that holds the wheel on, take the wheel off and rotate it like a clock, install it in a new position on the arbor. The label should always be facing up.

Edited September 5, 2015 by chiefs17

[fbvnyc 12]

I got the jist of what you mean by "rotate." I'm curious why the label needs to be facing up at all times?

[chiefs17 2]

I got the jist of what you mean by "rotate." I'm curious why the label needs to be facing up at all times?

The label doesn't have to be facing up at all times. I was just trying to be clear about rotating it, and not flipping it over.

[x-track 8]

I can echo mnpuckers statement to the T. Except I have an X-01.

fbvnyc - Is the wheel dressed already when you do this experiment? If it is, then try taking the wheel off the machine and rotate it and re-install it. Now try the same test without dressing the wheel. If everything is perfect, you should have the same results. If the spinner only touches in one spot first, then you have a wheel that is not concentric from it's center hole to its outside edge.

The only way this can happen is play between the center hole of the grinding wheel (there should be a little there), a poorly machined arbor, or play in the motor shaft bearings.

Let us know what you find.

this is exactly the point ....poor quality ...which could easily be avoided , with a few additional cents .....i will have sby remachine an arbor and install quality bearings this week and will report

[chiefs17 2]

this is exactly the point ....poor quality ...which could easily be avoided , with a few additional cents .....i will have sby remachine an arbor and install quality bearings this week and will report

Great! I always wanted to get that done too. Let us know what you find.

Thanks.

[YesLanges 127]

Is there a noticeable difference in glide between 100/50 and 90/1? (Thanks in advance.)

[Mimizk 114]

Currently I've been using 90/75 and feeling very comfortable.

Then I want to question that how do you think "xx/1" spinner?

Before I touched with FBV, I had been thinking as that small = not heavy skater can use shallow = less bite sharpening. But FBV explain as that feather skater needs more bite rather than heavy skaters.

Of course I understand that this is not such easy story. But I'm just curious, what type of skaters do they need "xx/1" sharpening? Yes, this is really abstract question. But it's hard to find a "xx/1" user even on this thread. I didn't satisfied with "100/50" or "90/50". Then I tried "90/75". I've felt that "xx/75" spinner fit for me than "xx/50". I'm usually 71~5kg (156~165pounds), not so heavy. Why I ask such this question because perhaps "80/1" will fit for me if my not heavy weight would make decision of that I felt "xx/75" better than "50".

Anyone here who using "xx/1"? If there is, what type of skater are you? How is your skate settings?

How do you think what type of skater having a possibility will like "xx/1" spinner?

[YesLanges 127]

I cover as much ice as anybody (or more) and am usually the most aggressive forechecker and backchecker, but it's mainly because I'm also a very lazy skater in that I do a lot more looping and circling without the puck to conserve energy than stopping and starting. Google "John Kerry" + "Rink Turns" and that's basically me to a T. Example from my 50+ league here (I'm #7 in orange and the only one in orange socks and the ancient CCM helmet and gloves):

www.dropbox.com/s/5forg5lm1yyllbo/video-2015-07-19-18-59-17.mp4?dl=0

I recently switched from a 1/2" ROH to FBV 100/50 and am thinking about going to 90/1 to hold sharper turns if it won't cost me any glide because I'd like to cut sharper than 100/50 allows @ 182 lbs. 8'/13' dual radius (and FBV) from No-Icing.

Edited September 24, 2015 by YesLanges

[Chadd 916]

I cover as much ice as anybody (or more) and am usually the most aggressive forechecker and backchecker, but it's mainly because I'm also a very lazy skater in that I do a lot more looping and circling without the puck to conserve energy than stopping and starting. Google "John Kerry" + "Rink Turns" and that's basically me to a T. Example from my 50+ league here (I'm #7 in orange and the only one in orange socks and the ancient CCM helmet and gloves):

www.dropbox.com/s/5forg5lm1yyllbo/video-2015-07-19-18-59-17.mp4?dl=0

I recently switched from a 1/2" ROH to FBV 100/50 and am thinking about going to 90/1 to hold sharper turns if it won't cost me any glide because I'd like to cut sharper than 100/50 allows @ 182 lbs. 8'/13' dual radius (and FBV) from No-Icing.

95/75 should give you what you are looking for

[YesLanges 127]

Thanks, Chad. Could I trouble you to explain the difference between 95/75 and 90/1 and why some FBV cuts are in the format of single digits for the second number instead of two digits? (Thanks in advance.)

[Chadd 916]

The 95/75 will have a wider flat spot at the top and shorter side walls. so it will sink into the ice less. Think of the 90/a as 90/100 and it will make more sense. I think going from /50 sides to /100 sides will be a significant increase in bite

[joepaw 0]

My son is 11 and is 85lbs soaking wet. he was on 100/50 til this summer when I switched him to 90/75 with the soft ice.

Personally, I was thinking he was too light for the 90/75, but he loves it.

Once winter comes, will need to see if the hard ice becomes a factor. If so, might go back to 100/50 or what would be a cut between 100/50 and 90/75 to try?

[YesLanges 127]

Thanks again, Chad. I was just logging in to edit that before you responded because I meant to ask about 95/1 not 90/1. (I assume you meant 90/1, not 90/a). Why do they use "100" for some cuts and "1" for others if they're equivalent? Because that's very confusing. No-Icing says that 95/1 is the smallest possible increase in bite from 100/50, but how does that change affect glide?